35 in the bag

I don't seem to have them (mid-season slumps that is). Our season is so short here in Michigan that by the time mid-season rolls around it's over and time to go fishing.

All I have to say is......

I agree with most of the theory you expressed and the advice given......keep working on the body position. BUT......... A fully developed slalom acceleration lean is a very powerful, relatively fragile and courageously challenging thing to developed. With all the body position in the world, you can be significantly hindered if the ski/binding system is not tuned properly to allow you to stably and confidently get there. Even worse, you may be fighting inherent instabilities and/or forces which you have no possible chance of overcoming without an equipment adjustment. I'm not saying that is your problem.....yet if you cannot go out there and with full concentration rocket yourself across the wake then something is wrong. It is the key skill to slalom progression. Without it nothing else matters. So keep working on it. It's either your fear, your ski causing/adding to your fear, or your position. If you study the position and are dedicated to get there but can't....then somethings amiss. I have no idea what to tell you to do.....but safely experiment by doing something. Either that or just throw away another 1/2 season with marginal improvement. For when you are able to learn to accelerate, at will, as required to run the next pass, then it won't be too long until you run the next pass. Change something, anything and if necessary, everything. Just be safe. John M

We have now installed a brand new jump on Lake Jepawhit. It is quitely calling my name. John....John....John.....come play with me..... Now back in the day (1981), my first year in Mens 1, I was going 140+. Early my second year I caught an edge trying to ride one out and blew my MCL. To this day I need to wear a custom Donjoy knee brace to protect it when skiing. The last thing I want to do is hurt myself and take me off the slalom course. Yet is it possible for me to jump this 50 year old body safely and start to do the overall thing? So really this ends up being more of a slalom question than a Jump question. John M.

The opt up idea is a good one. Back in the seventies & early eighties we were forced to run long line (75') at anything less than our max speed. So learning 36 on a 75' rope was a difficult and dicey thing and a prerequisite to learning 15 & 22 off. Most tourneys were single round too. So quite a few times I opened at 34 longline only to fall at 36 longline even though I could run into & through 28 off very consistently. Ah..........those were the days. Our speed control system was located between the driver's ears. JIII

The water temp thing can be like a dog chasing its tail on some bodies of water. On Lake Jepawhit in Michigan for instance, the temp will vary 10 degrees from one end to the other depending on wind conditions. More over, during tournaments when we have constant boat activity, even on calm days the temperature varies significantly from one spot to the other. I have noticed this when swimming to change out buoys for slalom to jump. I bet I have felt 20 degree surface variations within 20 feet. Maybe this explains some of the buoy gremlins that affect some of the skiers. JIII

Horton, FYI, I couldn't seem to make a correction. JIII

I'm sorry.....but correcting boat path is something that must be done. If you see a boat path tending toward one side and you do not respectfully report it ASAP, then IMO you are as much at fault as the driver. Maybe more so. No driver wants to give a bad pull. Site lines are different from boat to boat. The driver cannot correct something that he/she does not know is a problem. Of course it's the boat judges’ job to direct corrections to boat path.......but they frequently don't do it. Plus it is usually much more precisely seen from end of course as the boat is coming at you. Look at it early and often to help out the drivers and skiers. The key here is to be discrete. The whole world does not need to know that a boat path correct is being request and attempted. Even over a radio it can be quick and sort of in code...... " Boat you there"........"Yea" ......” Try moving towards driver side 4 to 6 inches, thanks". Most often a driver has seen me at end course and asked via a hand signal how he looks (this is very discreet). I think this should be done for the first few skiers of every driver change. JIII

I switched this year and had problems due to the liner/binding not being "tight" enough on my foot. I ultimately had to use a different liner (RS-1) to fill the extra space and create the very solid contact I seem to need with the ski in order to ski consistently well. A liner switch is not unusual for this system......I guess a lot of the top skiers who use reflex use it with a different brand of liner.....often Goode. (I just happened to have an RS-1 liner laying around and it worked out well - though the tounge is a bit too short - still working to correct that issue) I also have the reflex back 1 hole from my "other binding position" (I'm all the way back). Other wise I had way to much tip even though the fin is exactly where this ski is dial for me. I'm sure you have notice that a Reflex is not necessarily stiffer than a stiff rubber system. At least not until it is properly (tightly) fit on you. Keep working the problem (binding) until it is right. You should be able to tweek it so that you are at least near where you started.....though this can be frustrating. Make sure every thing is tight.........that screws and the white adjusters are all making solid contact. Just be a bit careful. JIII

Stevie Boy, After 5 minutes of reading I started peeing my pants cause that Veet thing is so funny. I wonder though......could it get me through 39 if I applied it at exactly the right moment. Maybe Dave should get rights to the patent and then re-label it at Goode Power Gel

IMO, bindings may be generally the most overlooked part of ski tuning. I am not talking just the dft as was raised here, but also stiffnesses, fit, unintended foot movement, etc. These things make a huge difference on how a ski performs under you. So, bottom line, if it is not working for you.....then it is wrong and you should work to correct it........that is what the elite do. JIII

He's Cross Handed!!!!!

A different way to think about it in the course that really work for me.........and I see most of the top skiers doing it whether they think about it or not. Rotate the handle. Assuming normal grip configuration......rotate the handle towards a vertical position as you edge change into your on side. Rotate towards a horizontal position as you edge change into your toe side. This really solved a problem for me. See, when "I" think about it like how @Rich describes (which is great BTW) I end up staying on my pulling edge too long. The handle rotation thing just plain puts my upper body and arms in more of a correct position. Look at video of high end skiers...... you'll see it! The other problem you may be having is not enough speed as you exit off the second wake at 35 off. At 35 and beyond........ I am convinced that you cannot have "too much" speed. You can certainly have too little to work with. But "too much" can be dealt with as a possitive. At longer lengths "too much" speed can easily translate into slack. I think the high end skiers that make it look easy, generate speed better than the rest of us. Just my 2 cents. JIII

C1 in my opinion. You want to minimize the speed variance (overall speed delta) as much as possible. If you think about it, that's basically what a very light individual does. They "hide" from Zero Off better because of the lighter load. C1 engages the soonest (less negative speed delta to initiate) and with the strongest power response over the shortest duration therefore keeping the steadiest speed. A3 on the other hand is the opposite. JIII

Turn - the - Handle....... Now for a suggestion on the how to. In the past I have read "keep the elbows pinned to the vest" in the pre-turn. This seemed difficult to "just do".......something wasn't quite right. That is until I stumbled on the following technique by observing on video what may top skiers seem to do almost naturally. Presuming a conventional handle grip (ie. holding it like a baseball bat....like a right handed batter if you are LFF), at the end of the pull phase, twist the handle into a vertical position while skiing toward your heal side turn (on side). Conversely, twist the handle into a horizontal position while skiing toward your toe side. For me this has the dramatic effect of forcing my inside elbow into a bent position near my vest keeping me connected as I ski outbound and upcourse to "advance on the boat". It seems easy to think about and I feel the results immediately when I do it. Try it right there at your desk and you will see what I mean. The body's geometry seems to naturally force the inside elbow into your rib cage when twisting the handle as I describe. Just something that is helping me.....thought it might help others as well. John M

Is this RadaR Part Duex. Maybe RadaR 2.0.

I can't believe it is almost mid May and I still haven't gotten wet. I am generally a serious skier, 5-6 days/wk and hitting most of our local tourneys. I dream about it all the time. Lurk here lots. Study the game. Yet I still haven't gone this year. This is sad........ really sad! John M

Brent, Your skiing has evolved in the last year and a half to be Spectacular. That said….. For All to Hear… you are using controlled tip rise at the end of the turn (the infamous finish) to maintain your momentum. It is smooth & beneficial & Cool. We should all be so lucky to ski with your skills. You, being fun to watch, control the tip rise to “finish” your turn. We all wish we could ski with you’re balance and stacked position over the ski. ….. but this is not about you……. You are starting to figure it out. It’s about the rest of us…… who over-turn, overload and bow "out the front"! BTW....Frozen Clio water Su<& s …..!!! & I truly hope you grow next year as well as you did this year. ON TO THE POINT. My initiation of the thread was not negative tip rise @ 22 off (stomping on the back of the ski).. or any other length for that matter ………….but rather the patient, ..pause,.,… that I see at 38 & 39 from the best skiers....after the ski has been highly pressured in the turn. “The Finish” has seemed “to me” to be a myth…… a miss-understood, "clichés". I have witnessed, time & time again, a ”finish”…., from great skiers,…which has tip rise ….. by my definition. Contrarily, a finish which "closses off', over-turns, & just stalls,......fails......., for all but the "brutes" of our sport. Contralily again >>>>> WE ALL AGREE THAT "''''''' STAYING OPEN THOUGHOUT THE THE TURN AND INTO THE PULL'''''' Is A "Goode Thing".... pun intended........which I am seeing leads to "tip rise" at the finish @ 38 and beyond. So,,,,,,, IS TIP RISE BAD? Think about an open body position and what that does to the ski....... it forces it up & out......at the end of the turn >>>>>I think<<< Be clear, ….I’m not speaking to 32’ and below skiers who need to develop aggressive angle……..I’m talking to the 35 off guys who over-do-it at 38. Dig a hole and can’t hang on. …..All of us that dream of a top ten at Nationals. Staying open throughout , and at the end of the turn, has helped me a bit. When I am open , my mass (my shoulderers & hips) are pointed to the next buoy (more-or less)…. This prevents the ski from over-turning. The challenge is that I only do it right one –out-of-three times,….. which does not get me too far into my hardest pass too often here in Michigan. Still, I have experienced……….. There is a special moment at the well executed end of the turn at 38 & 39 that the hook-up is “more-or-less” silky smooth with immense energy which just plain works!!! And tip rise, by design, intention, or not, …….may “finish” the turn @ 38 & 39 w/o “over-doing-it” (or not over turning)…..allowing more speed into the hook-up and more cross course angle due to “that” speed. The more I see this on video.... the more I realize this is an important "One of the Ten Things in Slalom" which I must consider to learn to control... also I work on staying stacked....and the power triangle...and handle control (always thankyou BB) ......in the pull. ...off the wake.....into the turn, trailing arm pressure (thankyou MB), forcing myself open in the pre-turn and throughout the turn-pull. Isn't this a wonderful monster ........... Like above,,,,,=== I look at the girls.... If they can ski with massive "TIP-RISE"' .....then maybe, as a man, ....I should be able to too. ha I agree... it's all fun! Please let the debate continue! John M.

Gloersen, Jamie's video again makes my point. There is tip rise at virtually every turn you can see begining at 38 off (see 1 @ 38 - pause it at 24 seconds in, its a huge tip rise)........ 2 @ 38 has very little, can't see 3 or 4. 5 has quite a bit. Also look at 1 @ 39 (41 seconds in). 1 @ 41 is an amazing turn and hook-up. But according to the definition I outlined above...there is tip rise....only it's kinda disguised. Pause at 58 seconds and there it is. Much less ski in the water than a moment before. It happens so fast that you miss it at real time.

@ Horton, The Badal video supports the point I was making. At 38 the tip rise is there, albeit subtle, at every turn,..... well except 6 I believe. It is of course more pronounced @ 5. At 39 it is very significant at every turn. Look closely.....it is almost always there to one degree or another at these line lengths. Do show me a video w/o it if you know of one. Bruce I think you are on to the main underlying factor. Part of the short line turn IS a hard turn because of the speed carried into the buoy which was necessary to get wide (advance on the boat). And to make that turn puts more load on the ski and the skier in a position to easily, almost naturally, over turn, especially if closed off. Just think back to all the times any of you tossed the handle near the end of the turn rather than taking the hit. In that case you overturned, dug a hole, lost that precious speed and momentum. Look at where you settled into the water..... much more up course than you think. You used all of your stored momentum to turn almost 90 degrees cross course and it got you nowhere....you only picked up the 1/2. A good friend always touted the fact that the course IS very long....and not so wide......use it! Now back to the point. The heavily loaded ski near the end of the turn seems to want to unload.....if you'll let it. Here is the benefit...... if there is less load on it then there is less energy being lost to the water during that oh-so-critical moment when one is being patient and skiing back to the point of hook-up. Look at what the spray does right at the point of the subtle tip rise/finish of turn............its’ mass & volume is drastically reduced. Spray equals energy........ less spray means less energy being sacrificed to the water. So to me the point of “stomping on the breaks” is not what is really going on here. Rather, this is the point of patience and then the reset of the ski at, or slightly after hook-up. There is no question one can ski a 32 with no tip rise. But the angles are drastically less at 32 and you can meaningfully hook-up much closer to the buoy line than at 38 and shorter. I am also coming to believe that countering and staying countered/open throughout the turn helps to prevent the overturn scenario and to skiing back to the point of hook-up. John M.

Having watched dozens of short line (-38 and shorter) passes on video over the last day or two, it is clear that tip rise at the end of the turn is the common occurrence……not the exception. It is pretty much a constant. I didn’t count, but I estimate that 95% of all turn finishes I watched had some sort of tip rise. Go look for yourself in an earlier thread. I define tip rise as the comparison of having less ski in the water at the finish than immediatly earlier in the turn and later in the pull. Of the few times there was no tip rise, frequently it looked like the skier nearly ended up in a “lean-lock”……..very heavily loaded…….and yes, very early into the next ball......but..... Also, not quite as frequently, I’ll say 75% or more of the time, the ski was manipulated to point down course at the finish. I define this as any ski angle which is pointed more down course than immediately earlier in the turn and/or immediately before the angle of the ski in the pull. With the preponderance of video evidence of good & great skiers doing this, why is it then that we commonly think these are “bad” things to have happen at short-line and that something needs to be corrected? Is it only because it doesn’t “look like” “good form”? It isn’t “smooth”? I now challenge us to think of this differently. Maybe this is an essential skill to be learned as the line gets really short. I still firmly believe that this “tip rise/point down course” manipulation results in conservation of speed/momentum while waiting for the hook-up. Also, that it aborts the end of the turn so that the skier doesn’t “over turn” and waste precious momentum which would need to be immediately made back up during the pull/lean. John M.

Middle of winter in michigan and my skibud calls from Okeeheelee ....."havn't missed a 38 in the last 6 sets". Oh it takes so long to get back in ski shape w/o some winter skiing.

More speed out of the turn translates into the possibility for more speed/angle behind the boat given the same amount of "pull" effort. My take on the wheelie/ski turned down coarse at the end of the turn is that they are, almost instinctively, doing every thing they can to prevent an "overturn"/stall situation. The opposite way of saying it is that they are tyiing to maintain all possible speed until the point of hookup. The more speed one has at point of hook-up, the less acceleration (load) is needed to generate cross coarse speed, angle and the needed resulting width on the opposite side. As one learns each successive shortening, I believe one of the more common mistakes is to over-turn, dig-a-hole, then overload as a result, getting stood-up at or before the wakes. The contortions you are seeing is a combersome looking way of, what I call, "aborting the turn", in an effort to "ski back to the handle" and hook up lighter than otherwise if one overturned. My 2 cents John M.

@RB - where are you?

Horton, Can you set up a poll?.........No score (previous full buoy only) - or - Score (previous buoy plus something). There seems to be enough objective disagreement that "we" need an education. Maybe USAWS can weight in for clarification. Leave out the thought of whether it could be seen/discerned in real time. Look only at the evidence presented. I vote "No Score". 1 The buoy is clearly "ridden over"........"temporarily sunk".... as a result of being "hit by the ski" (excerpts rule 10.03). If you don't buy the "temporarily sunk" argument because the buoy is not shown as fully submerged, then use the "move it significantly from its position" argument, as the top of the buoy is not in its original position.....it is depressed. The "Front Foot" position does not play into this... relative to "hitting" a turn buoy, or any other buoy for that matter, except the right hand entrance gate. Note - See appendix (page 86) for " Entrance Gate Judgment" which implies an obvious exception to "hitting" the "right hand gate buoy" - based on the diagram which shows the center of the ski over the center of the gate buoy, and still counting as a "Good" gate. Implying it was ridden over and/or hit. I don’t see any other exception about “riding over a buoy”. But maybe I am missing something. Look at the "Slalom Scoring Diagram", also on page 86. This may be thin....but notice how the X-Y, C-D and line of gate buoys lines do not extend through the buoys, but are instead interupted by the circumference of the buoys. Does this further support that the buoys are not to be "ridden over"? Let the debate continue until Horton is either $5 richer or $5 poorer for certain. John M. http://ballofspray.static.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/a6/2114cb9aa6a3df126afe7ec736d649.jpg