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ajgear

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Everything posted by ajgear

  1. Here’s an article about the battle in MN: https://www.minnpost.com/environment/2020/03/the-battle-over-wake-surfing-has-made-its-way-to-the-minnesota-legislature/ Doesn’t sound like much is going to happen just yet, but other states will certainly be watching.
  2. There are proposals to limit boats with “wake enhancing devices” deployed to certain depths of water (I think 15 feet or so) and no closer than 200 ft from other vessels or shorelines. They’re doing the depth thing under the theory of preventing bottom stirring which releases nutrients from the bottom into the water, feeding algae blooms. The rest is obviously shoreline preservation and safety. It would essentially eliminate wake boats from smaller, shallower lakes. As a recovering surfer, I get the arguments on both sides, but agree that wakes have gotten WAY beyond what any amateur surfer can even handle. At that point it’s just a phallus measuring contest. But if they keep building them bigger, people that feel the need to compensate for certain shortcomings will keep buying them. And eventually there will be enough backlash to stop the madness.
  3. @Horton, I wasn't suggesting that the actual skier/driver accounts of the SN were fabricated or invalid. I know many have actually skied behind it and or driven it, I appreciate those critiques and the validity of their preferences. My point was that a lot of the negative comments were from the peanut gallery, not actual accounts of experience with the boat. And if you haven't driven or skied it, or at the very least been in it, it's a hollow critique. Hence, the comments later in that post. It was essentially a more verbose version of, "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it." Perhaps I'll go with that next time. ;) Those peanut gallery comments reminded me of an experience I had about 20 years ago. I had a just gotten a new Corvette (car, not boat). I got out of it at a bar where some guys were smoking outside. One guy with a Dodge shirt on proceed to ask me how I felt about the Viper being quicker, faster, etc. I said it didn't really bother me, as they were very different cars, but I'd be glad line up my Vette with his Viper. He responded that he didn't have a Viper. I just gave him a polite smile and nod, and walked into the bar. On the setup thing, it seems like maybe there are dealers that are so focused on wake boats that they don't know how to deliver a ski boat with the right setup and basic instructions. Could be wrong.
  4. @6balls, I couldn't agree more. A quick setup guide on a laminated sheet/ring of sheets to throw in the glove box similar to an airplane checklist, but obviously simpler/smaller. Another thing that has truly surprised me in three of my most recent boat purchase is that there are NO independent reviews and comparisons of new boats out there. There are boat "reviews" that seem more like advertisements than reviews, and many are simply regurgitated from the manufacturers websites. I was shocked that no one was out there getting demo boats from area dealers, putting them on a lake, riding behind them one after another, and then writing a comparison/review. Instead, you have to scour forums and sift through all the homerism to find even a brief, honest take on a boat. It seems like there's an opportunity there. If someone did that, the poor SOBs that are looking at buying a new 200 or SN and are trying to find some insight could be saved from my rantings. :)
  5. @Horton, absolutely. It really does throw a pretty significant wake with ballast full, hydrogate up and lower speeds. A buddy of mine did trick in his younger days and was inspired to break out his trick ski. That wake scared him a bit. I had to go to about 50% ballast before he would try anything. He finished 3 inverts in 4 tries. By that I mean that he made it about 3/4 of the way over each of the four times. :D @tru-jack, I'm not sure about surfing w/o a rope. We did wake foil behind it last weekend. It was all of our first times on a foil, so it was a bit of a mess, but I think if we played with it, we could get that to go ropeless, as my buddy was able to ride with a fair bit of slack for quite some time before failing both epically and comically. If the weather cooperates this weekend, I'll gladly load it up and pop a wake shaper on the side to give it a shot. I'll let you know.
  6. @horton, to which do you refer? The SN or the VTX? I can understand the argument for either.
  7. I’m just glad I sold my crossover so that I can now look disapprovingly at wake boats when they go by. Most of them on our lake belong to my buddies, and I’ll gladly take a surf pull, but it feels good to have the moral high ground. Soon I will also shake my fist in the air as they pass, but I haven’t perfected the disapproving look yet, so first things first. In all seriousness though, one of the reasons I switched to a pure ski boat was because our 20 VTX was getting swamped by the behemoths in the surf lanes. 3 years ago, it was us and maybe two other boats with similar wakes. Now there’s 10 out there, and the small ones are 22’ and weigh 4500# dry. It’s an arms race. Now we ski before they get on the water and pontoon in the shallow parts where they can’t go when they are out there....or hop on the big ones and surf with them. ?
  8. @RAWSki, that’s how the new 200 heaters come from the factory. The nozzles come out on the right side of the foot well. Couldn’t figure that out for the life of me. I’m sure it’s a routing issue with the open bow, but man, would that bug me. And that electrical panel placement... https://nautique.com/assets/img/models/2021/n200/gallery/2021_Nautique_200_I_Gallery_03.jpg
  9. @dave2ball, I make apologies neither for zealously defending my baby, nor my prolixity in doing so. ? Also, I really like externalizing all of the internal justifications I used to part with the wad of cash I had to drop to adopt her.
  10. @dave2ball, by all means, feel free to extol the virtues of the 200 vs the SN. Given your vast experience with, and knowledge of, CC, surely you can fill in the blank spaces in my comparison and specify the nature of the cliffs from which I’ve left so many hanging. Should it be less explanation that you truly seek, and not more, I’ll mark that as an accomplishment. If it’s just more of my flowing prose you’re after, ask, and ye shall receive. ?
  11. @dave2ball, I guess I'm not understanding your definition of "better". Those "creature comforts" are a HUGE portion of the enjoyment of a boat. If every time you get the heater hose out, it gets tangled in your legs, it sucks to use the heater for passengers. If every time you swing your foot into the foot well, you stub your toe on the battery switch, it's annoying. If you don't have anyplace to put your skies and other stuff, and you're tripping on it every time you try to move around the boat, it's frustrating. And for me, having to step onto the swim deck to use the center gas fill is a gigantic pain in the arse. All of those thing absolutely make a difference. I would posit that there's not a huge difference between the wakes of most newer ski boats from the Big 3, and that the vast majority of those differences are purely subjective. Hence, my earlier comments regarding enjoying skiing behind any of them. I think most skiers would agree. Thus, the differentiating factors for MANY buyers are those very creature comforts. So what data are you looking for? I haven't done a 3D camera scan of the wakes to measure the deviation in water level from side to side. I don't have any gyroscopic data to measure how much the skier and ski bounce when crossing the wake. I also don't have any 0 to 60 times or lap times around the Nurburgring for you to compare. I'd also posit that while you feel them insignificant, MicroTuners and 450 # of weight reduction are not small things. They change how the water reacts when leaving the bottom of the hull, and there should be no doubt in a rational person's mind that those things have an effect on wake. While those effects are demonstrable, it doesn't mean they're desirable to everyone. The reality of the matter is that when it comes to ski boats, almost all of the performance factors that people care about are subjective. So I suppose if you don't include subjective measures and creature comforts in your definition of "better", then the cheapest fiber glass tub with a motor in it wins the contest so long as it creates a wake that you like. Wait, that wake is subjective too. I guess we're stuck. ;)
  12. @DavidN, Can't dispute the 22 off thing. ;) BUT, I haven't had any complaints from guys that are at that length going from the 2019 PS to the 2020 Ski (perhaps because they're all at 34 mph), including the owner of the PS. The feedback I've gotten from them is that it's not a "hard" bubble, so as long as they're pulling through it, it's not kicking them. I have noticed in observing that if they back off before the wake, it's a more noticeable pop, as one would expect. Nothing is perfect, I guess. I love my Ford Raptor, and it will do unnatural things (in a good way) off-road when pressed. But I sure miss the Expedition's rear air suspension when I'm pulling my tractor. As far as the SeaDeck is concerned, I can absolutely understand the look of it being a sticking point. But from a functional standpoint, I don't see anywhere that "makes no sense". Perhaps you're seeing something I'm not. I like having the entire gunwale covered, as it allows people to step in and out anywhere along the side from another boat, a dock, or the platform without slipping or grinding sand into the gelcoat. I hate feet on fiberglass, so maybe that's my own issue, but I also view it as a safety concern. Slips getting into/out of a boat scare the heck out of me. I've also found that the small step forward of the front speaker is quite nice for our shorter folks when entering/exiting from the side. I also like it on the motor hood both as a secure stepping point from the gunwale to the opposite side of the boat or vice versa when getting in and out, and for using it to work on skis. The exterior upholstery? I get the criticism. I like the feel reaching over the side from the helm, but it certainly could have been made smaller. I've seen wear there on other boats from the bungee rope going from the pylon to a dock that's lower than the gunwale. I put a 2' shock tube over my bungee rope to prevent that. Luckily for me, our lake is actually a reservoir, and though it doesn't fluctuate too much, people's docks are generally higher to avoid the occasional rise in water level. The looks are certainly subjective, as may already be clear, I personally love the angles and the snub nose. It's like a mid-engine supercar had a lovechild with a stealth fighter. It's aggressive, and certainly a departure from the classic look. I read an article in an auto mag a few years back talking about criticism of "modern" automotive design. One of the more controversial designers commented that, if everyone likes a new design, you did something wrong. His point was that if it's not causing some people to scratch their heads, it's not a big enough departure from past designs. He argued that, if it wasn't controversial, it would age much more quickly and wouldn't move the design language of the industry forward. As more people are exposed to the new design and warm to it, others in the industry start to incorporate elements into their cars, and eventually they all start to resemble a car that's been around for years. It certainly doesn't always play out that way, and this may not either, but I fully support pushing the aesthetic boundaries. Perhaps it will end poorly. Perhaps it's just ahead of its time, and others will emulate it more subtly until they resemble it. Perhaps it will crater and forever be known as the Pontiac Aztec of boats. Time will tell, I guess.
  13. @mancy, it's about 450 lbs lighter with less displacement. It has a newer hull design to flatten wake and redirect spray. It's 3" wider. The footwell doesn't have an electrical panel where your left foot goes. The heater tube doesn't have to go under the driver's leg to get to the passenger seat (and get tangled or stepped on when the driver gets in and out). The driver position sits just a tad lower so taller drivers don't have their hats blown off (not a benefit to everyone, I guess). There's a place to put skis other than on the floor, so you don't need a tower with ski racks if you have four skis and kid's stuff onboard (you can theoretically put a ski or maybe 2 under the observer seat, so long as you have nothing else in there - it's not roomy or convenient in the 200). It has MicroTuners that, much to the dismay of technophobes, work quite well. It has fuel fills on both sides of the boat so you don't have to step off the dock to put gas in it (and the cover has fuel ports, unlike the 200). Leaky gas cans also don't drip on the non-skid on the rear step. With the closed bow, there's a lot more room for extra life jackets, boat bumpers, towels, etc. (again, may be a detriment for those needing the seating area, but a benefit to me). The windshield is cut back to allow easier conversation/interaction with the skier without standing or reaching uncomfortably over the side window. It has 400 lbs of ballast to beef up the wake if (God forbid) my kids end up wanting to do a little wakeboarding or tubing. It has a heated observer seat to keep my wife and kids happy. It has docking lights for those late evenings coming back into the lift. That's my short list, and most of the reasons I chose the ski over the 200. I could probably find a few other things I like better (like the larger glove box) if I really thought about it. Oh, and I happen to think it's dead sexy as well, but clearly, YMMV. Again though, these might not be the same preferences as others have, and I'm only comparing the new 200 to the Ski. The comparison between the new Ski and the previous 200CB would certainly be slightly different w/r/t storage and such. For a number of reasons, I didn't really consider the pre-2019 boats when I was looking.
  14. @mancy, as I said, not all new technology is better or, more to the point, better for everyone. But this is more like the iPhone 11 Pro is better than the iPhone 11. You may not find proportional value in the better camera, better water resistance, or better display for the $300 upcharge. Both are certainly perfectly functional, and if the 11 suits your needs, you certainly don’t have to pay for the upgrades. You may even find it frustrating to have to deal with the additional camera modes and whatnot. In fact, you may feel like your iPhone 8 is all the smart you need in a phone. If you’d miss your home button or earphone jack, by all means stay with what works for you. But to deny that those upgraded features are useful to those who are willing to pay for them and learn to use them is simply replacing fact with preference. There are demonstrable differences. Some will like them. Some won’t. The beauty is that both camps are free to vote with their wallets. I did choose to vote with my dollars, and thus far, I’m extremely happy with that choice, as are those I’ve skied with or talked to about their experience with the boat. Most of the negativity I’ve seen, on the other hand, comes from people who haven’t skied or driven one, and is based on their perception of its price/value balance. If you have skied/driven one after learning how to use it, and you don’t like it, great. It’s not the boat for you, and there are lots of other choices out there. If you did like it but think it’s too expensive, again, great. Find a less expensive boat you like, or wait until used ones start popping up at more affordable prices. If, on the other hand, one hasn’t skied/driven one that’s set up properly, but still feels it necessary to enlighten the world with their critique, forgive me if I take that with a very large grain of salt.
  15. We skied my 2020 SN a fair bit this weekend. Line lengths from 15 to 35 off, from 30 to 34 mph. We've been mostly skiing a 2019 PS until I picked the SN up last Thursday. 5 skiers, and ZERO complaints about he SN vs the PS. While I do take into account that no one wants to insult their buddy's new boat, the next morning's text string left me with little doubt of their sincerity -- Me: "Ready to roll. Who's driving?" All Others: "LOL. When are you picking us up?" That's no slam on the PS, as we didn't complain about that one either. But there was a consensus of preference for the SN. Using rear ballast to balance a ski boat is not the best idea for slalom. Having added weight in back to balance the driver messes with the the fore/aft balance as well as the port/stbd balance, and will definitely harden the wake and increase the roost. If someone previously messed with the ballast tanks and didn’t dump them, that would cause serious wake issues. It's best to add the weight just forward of the pylon (or under the observer seat) and move it left or right to get the balance. Two or three 50# Lead Wake bags works like a charm in any boat regardless of your allegiance ;) . That was a pro tip from a tournament driver that carried a few extra pounds, and often had lighter observers. Unfortunately, most dealers can tell you way more about how to set up a surf boat than a ski boat. The HydroGate and MicroTuners are all set by the line length and speed in slalom mode, so no need to mess with any of that. The MicroTuners are either deployed or retracted, and that’s a function of line length and speed. There aren’t degrees of extension. Likewise, in slalom mode the HydroGate is all the way down without adjustment. You can mess with the HydroGate in Trick mode and you can add ballast manually in any mode. To say that those devices are "kluge for bad hull design" is just silly. Our shorter line-length guys (28 off and under) are amazed by the lack of troughs due to the MicroTuners. HydroGate and MicroTuners are simply ways to improve on something that hull design alone cannot, because the hull can't just change shapes based on speed and activity. Configurable hull devices have revolutionized every other boat sport over the years, so I don't understand the opposition to them when it comes to 3-event skiing. In the end, people's experiences and preferences may vary, but technology is like a wave; you can stand still and let it pass (and maybe wait for the next one), you can get get on and ride it, or you can just stand on shore, watch it, and talk about how much better you think the last wave was. Riding it doesn't always end as well as it could. Not all new technologies end up being improvements. But there are those who, no matter how great the leap forward, will complain about how expensive and unnecessary the new tech is. And heck, if they want to keep their corded big-button phone on their land line because then they don’t have to worry about learning how to use all those newfangled electronics that might fail, wireless signals, and $800 phones (because a new phone in 1980 only cost $20), good for them. No judgement. Others will continue to try new tech fully understanding that it carries both benefits and risks. They’re probably reading this on their iPhone 11s right now while the others are waiting for their Compaq’s modem to hook up to AOL dial-up. To each their own. :p
  16. @tjs1295, likewise if you're looking for a pull on Lake Wausau.
  17. @DW it wasn’t so much that the wake behind the TXi was bad, as much as it just didn’t feel like a stronger pull or a step forward from older Malibus. I’m no great talent, and perhaps it was more wholistic than specific, but I felt that the ProStar I ski behind regularly was more friendly all-around. When in the boat, the TXi sounded rougher and just didn’t feel as solid. With respect to the ‘02 Malibu, the ‘02 was quieter and smoother. Wake wise, can’t say the 02 is ‘better’ than the 2020, but it’s not worse. Seemed very similar. Hard to say with out having them side by side, but I didn’t feel any significant improvement. The Ski Nautique wake is wider, but it’s also softer and easier to attack on-edge. If you catch it with a flat ski it will still launch you, but that’s not different than any other wake. I’m not close enough to the boat to get the full effect of the microtuners, but it did feel softer (but not mooshy) on-edge, though you can’t get lazy and think that it's not there. The TXi was more traditional, with everything you’ve experienced behind older ski boats. It was pretty flat, and quite skiable. It just seemed to require more attention than the MC or the SN. I had to think about the TXi wake as I was cutting, and I think that naturally causes some restraint. The SN in some aspects punishes restraint. Not that the SN is “harsh” if you’re not full tilt, it’s just soooooo much better when you are that it feels relatively harsh when you’re being lazy. If you’ve made a couple good cuts and feel like, “wow, that wake is barely there”, and then get lazy with the next cut, you’ll get a swift reminder that there is, in fact, still a wake there. Not sure if that answers your questions, but trying to describe one’s perception of a wake is really quite difficult. The quantitative aspects are hard to measure, and the perceptual measures are hard to describe. And one last caveat: I rode the TXi and the SN in very different conditions (TXi was open water with a light wind, no course, and a sales guy driving, SN was on a private lake with only a course, dead calm, and with a pro driver) and a week apart. It’s so hard to make a detailed comparison with that much gap in time and with the change of conditions. I would love to get the SN, PS, and the TXi on the same lake on the same day and ride behind all. We’ve got the 2019 PS and the 2002 Response, so we might get a chance to at least do that comparison. Again, I’ll gladly take a pull behind pretty much and DD ski boat. I don’t profess to be the arbiter of wake quality, and everyone has their own preferences, so take this all with whatever size grain of salt you feel is appropriate.
  18. If my crew is any indicator, there are actually a fair number of folks out there that love the aesthetics of the new hull. I'm sold...well, the boat is actually sold...to me. So, I guess that makes my opinion pretty clear :) From a wake perspective, all of my buddies (and I) agree that it's different, but great. They're skiing anywhere from 15' to 35' off @ 32 or 34 mph. So it's a pretty diverse range. That said, we also ski a lot behind a 2019 MC ProStar and an '02 Response, and neither wake is anything to sneeze at. I strongly considered the 2021 PS, but in the end, the styling, interior f&f, and the cockpit (good Lord, do I love the Nautique cockpit) won me over. I'm a Malibu guy, so it was tough to swallow going to either MC or CC, but I couldn't warm up to the TXi from outside, inside, or behind the boat. Love or hate the SeaDeck, but it sure is comfy to walk/sit/lean on, and I had zero issues with it in my 2018 VTX. It also keeps ski fins, dip$hits with gravel on their feet, and other wayward objects off the gel coat. That might just save a life ;). It also keeps kids and adults with slippery feet from needing to chose one specific entry point when picking up at various docks and boats. Argue the look (I get, and even agree with that), but it's hard to argue the functionality. Longevity of the SeaDeck? I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. The cost? It ended up about $15k more than the MC comparably equipped with trailer. HOWEVER, the Nautique dealer was $5k better on their trade offer, and, in the end, was able to "broker" my private sale at $10k more than the trade offer, giving me the full tax benefit of a trade. So in the end, I was basically $5k more out the door. Granted that's a dealer thing and not a manufacturer thing, but last I checked, not too many of us are picking our boats up factory direct, so dealers have a huge impact on the buying decision from both a price and service perspective. Lots of worry in this thread about microtuner/hydrogate systems' durability. They're actually pretty simple systems with uncomplicated actuators and simple metal plates. It's not some alien technology. VASTLY simpler than any surf system that's out there. You can't buy a new boat from the big 3 without a touchscreen, so I don't understand the trepidation there either. Technology advances and some people will always fear it. Remember when cars started getting anti-lock brake systems? Any new technology caries risk, and if you like your old drum brakes, go nuts. But I'll take ABS any day. In the end, I respect everyone's opinions, because they're just that -- opinions. But I think there's some level of sour grapes mixed in too. I like skiing behind my buddy's '02 Response, my other buddy's '91 Skier, and my other buddy's '19 ProStar. All are a helluvalot more fun to ski behind than to watch from shore, complaining about what they look like or what the flooring is. They all made their purchasing decisions based on their priorities, preferences, and means. I did the same, and I'm happier than a puppy in a tennis ball factory. Feel free to hate my boat or call it ugly. It will fall on deaf ears :).
  19. Price has come down. $750 gives the ski a new home.
  20. @waterskigirl, I'm assuming you've skied the CX. I'm on the 69" Superlite version, and I love it. Size recommendation? 65" was my assumption.
  21. @BRY she's all open water. Usually 15 or 22 off and running +/- 28 mph (though I think she'd ski faster on a ski that fits her). She can throw down a few hard turns, but doesn't really link them together well yet. I doubt she'll ski a course any time in the near future, but it's possible.
  22. Thanks for the tips @Bill22. Didn't get it on SIA yet, but that will be next.
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