Ski attributes

[Dano]

Hi there,  I'm in need of a new ski.  I'm 170lbs and 5'9" tall skiing -32@34.   My previous ski was a  66" D3 R2.  I liked the R2, i'm sad to be moving on.   After riding a few other skis I noticed how they all felt completely different.  Some were very light thru the wakes and still created a tonne of space.  Some were very stable from wake to ball. some were just a wild ride that got you around buoys but you weren't  quite sure what was happening.  Over the past weekend I had an opportunity to ride a Works 02 which I was told was a L but it felt really big and I noticed my Radar plate was mounted as far back? (i might have that backwards)  as it would go just to get the recommended boot setting which I thought was odd.  I also rode a Pineapple which again I thought felt big but It wasn't clear what size it was so perhaps bindings were not in the ideal spot on it either.  I also rode a C75 medium and i'm certain settings were correct on it.   Not the best situation for testing for sure.  But I mean all of those skis had attributes that I liked and disliked.  I wont' judge the works 02 or the pineapple as i don't think they were setup properly.  even so, they skied pretty well.

Anyhow i'm on a budget and will be looking to buy used in time for next season.  for those who have ridden lots of skis, can you give some insight as to what attributes the different skis have?  The one thing I wished for the R2 was for it to be a little lighter cross course.   I wouldn't call it a real high effort ski but it never felt as light or as fast as a Vapor.  The R2 was very predictable, and provided quick crisp turns. on both sides, which come in handy when it's time to scramble.  To be clear I'm not looking for a ski that feels or skis just like the R2 i'm just looking for some non biased information as to how the other skis perform so I can attempt to make an informed purchase.   I live in Canada and getting demo rides is not an easy thing to do in my area. I'm not opposed to buying a ski and simply giving my best effort to learn to ski it.  That has always been my approach in the past. This time I'd rather attempt to get something that might work for me.

Thanks

[thager]

Maybe @Horton knows something? 🫠

[ETskier]

A large Works 02 is a 67in ski. You might try a medium, 66. (65.96) Their ski size, boot and fin settings chart on line is great. Their boot settings are almost 1/2 in back in 2024 vs 2023. Thus the inserts are set up differently as well.

[S1Pitts]

@Dano

I have a set up on my C85 that is killer. It feels as solid on the water as the R2, fast and effortless across the wakes and turns that you cannot seem to screw up. I like it so much I bought a back up. (Large) My R2 is great but the C85 allows me to ski twice as long.

@Rednucleus Come back to Lake Curlew so Dano can ride your medium. Or perhaps Dano can get to Hilltop to give it a go

[jayski]

Did you move your fin or bindings to make the R2 "lighter" across course?

[skialex]

@Dano Not gonna name a ski, but I have found out that the skis that I like the most happen to be the skis that most athletes that buy their own ski, ski on. Especially among the young athletes, 2 brands and 2-3 models are the most popular in tournaments.

I ride one of those and I’m super happy. 
Of course small companies that don’t produce the volume and don’t have distribution of the big ones, come up with great skis that worth your try.

I have tried a lot of skis, but right now I have ended up with the most popular one, which skis the best for me and my style.

 

[Dano]

37 minutes ago, jayski said:

Did you move your fin or bindings to make the R2 "lighter" across course?

@jayski Yes boot back 1/4”.   I did like the ski.  It’s no longer serviceable is the only reason I’m looking for another ski.

[Skoot1123]

@Dano in my experience when trying out different skis, pick a ski that is easy on the body. A ski that moves with you out of the box on stock settings will reward you with a pain free season.  It is always nice when you don’t feel like you have been run over with a truck at the end of a season. 

[DvarianDan Johnson]

Reality check here is that there are WAY to many variables in play, including of course skiers style, speed, rope lengths, course or free, etc., etc.  Even among a common brand and ski model there are widely varying opinions which further validates the point. Some love it others don't. The end result is unless YOU try it and see if you love it or not the rest is fairly irrelevant because of all the variables. It seems also there are some skis that are only amazing in certain performance envelopes (i.e., very short ropes) and others that seem great UNTIL you get to very short lines and then hit the wall. To @Skoot1123 comment on a ski that's easy on the body, IMO much of not being easy on the body is self inflicted due to not skiing properly. Not the ski. So unless there is a brand or ski that is universally panned as bad by all, which is not the case with any of the majors that I've seen, all will be split decisions. 

18 hours ago, Dano said:

little lighter cross course

Not 100% sure what "lighter" means but my sense is this is via higher riding skis that don't sit as deep, which there are plenty around but IMO you then lose the attributes of deeper riding skis. Personally the logic of deeper riding skis makes the most sense towards the performance envelope physics where the grip factor is essential. 

I personally went from high riding to very deep about 6 years ago and yes immediately felt like more work but the grip was amazing and I've not looked back. The focus has been on improving my own abilities. No longer feels like more work.  Skis that ride very deep also do not like to go slow. Terrible at slow speeds. Speed is essential for deep ride attributes to really come alive.     

Coming off the R2 I would encourage you to consider Connelly. The GTR and DV8 have been fabulous. No experience on the C1 yet and @Horton is slow on the review. The young team Connelly guns have been on fire the past couple years. Lucas Cornale, Eade brothers, Landon Stisher, AnneMarie W, etc. 

 

  

 

 

          

[Deanoski]

Your height and weight you should be on a med 66 works 02

im 180 6’ on a med it rips 

[Dano]

1 hour ago, Deanoski said:

Your height and weight you should be on a med 66 works 02

im 180 6’ on a med it rips 

Ya my impression of the one i rode was “too big”.  I wish I had tried a M .  The L was still pretty good though 

[Drago]

13 hours ago, skialex said:

have tried a lot of skis, but right now I have ended up with the most popular one,

What's the most popular ski?

[Dano]

As my original post stated, I rode 3 skis  that I had never been on before.  Some were the wrong size and maybe set up incorrectly.  What is remarkable is that I was able to run pretty close to my PB on all of them, in the first set.  That is remarkable and telling of how good today’s skis are. 
 

this post was not meant to be a brand A vs brand B.  Was hoping to determine what attributes each ski has as an example -  this ski is fast, or this ski has quick rotational turns, or this ski is has tight carving turns, or this ski is very stable and predictable. Etc….. 

maybe this is too open to personal preference,  I was just hoping to get a better understanding of different skis and how they behave. I know it’s impossible to know for sure without riding them,  but  I will not have that opportunity. 

[RobHazelwood]

Coming off an R2 you're looking for something 'slower' but more predictable, stable and happy to rotate. In contrast to something that's very 'tracky' and aggressive that will fly you across course but need a better path/movements to rotate. Most brands now offer skis for these two styles of skiing now. Presuming this, In terms of syndicate you probably made a good choice in 02 but an L is very large. It's a fairly wide ski so the surface area can become a lot when ridden big. It's definitely a ski that when you're on the bubble of a size you probably size down. You would be the textbook size for the Medium (66).

Not to dig or boost other brands but. Your more looking at Neo over Ion, XTR over 9970, radar probably doesn't offer much for your style, neither Connelly as from what I understand these skis fall into the fast and grippy across course with a ton of water speed category more than the rotatey and stable category. 

In terms of insert positions on 02. Once I got on 02 at the start of 2023 after some testing at stock (skied pretty damn well). Will had a watch and told me to try bindings super back and giving it a go, the ski lit up with no negatives from the move (I then realised maybe a little too much so we found a middle ground). After Swiss Pro Jaimee tried it and again preferred bindings back. This then went under some wider testing and was deemed to be more popular. Hence the stock number changing and the 2024 (last years model) inserts got moved back.

And of course if you end up trying syndicate again, feel free to reach out and I'll give my best shot at helping you out!

Edited September 13 by RobHazelwood

[lkb]

9 minutes ago, RobHazelwood said:

Coming off an R2 you're looking for something 'slower' but more predictable, stable and happy to rotate. In contrast to something that's very 'tracky' and aggressive that will fly you across course but need a better path/movements to rotate. Most brands now offer skis for these two styles of skiing now. Presuming this, In terms of syndicate you probably made a good choice in 02 but an L is very large. It's a fairly wide ski so the surface area can become a lot when ridden big. It's definitely a ski that when you're on the bubble of a size you probably size down. You would be the textbook size for the Medium (66).

Not to dig or boost other brands but. Your more looking at Neo over Ion, XTR over 9970, radar probably doesn't offer much for your style, neither Connelly as from what I understand these skis fall into the fast and grippy across course with a ton of water speed category more than the rotatey and stable category. 

In terms of insert positions on 02. Once I got on 02 at the start of 2023 after some testing at stock (skied pretty damn well). Will had a watch and told me to try bindings super back and giving it a go, the ski lit up with no negatives from the move (I then realised maybe a little too much so we found a middle ground). After Swiss Pro Jaimee tried it and again preferred bindings back. This then went under some wider testing and was deemed to be more popular. Hence the stock number changing and the 2024 (last years model) inserts got moved back.

And of course if you end up trying syndicate again, feel free to reach out and I'll give my best shot at helping you out!

Hey Rob how would you describe the works 01? 

[RobHazelwood]

2025 is pretty damn awesome and brought a lot of very good changes to the 2023/24 shape. A lot more balanced on the pre turn than the 2023/24 and a lot more drive from the front of the ski die to the smaller bevels. It's a ski that rewards drive and attacking, on lot of skis if you overload them they will throw you inside to the bouy. The 01 moves off second side like no ski out there and there is so much potential in being able to make that move stronger and it being easier to carry more speed outward bound to a better path. However in contrast to the 02, it maybe is slightly less forgiving if you are prone to skiing straight to the bouy. The Rotation comes from very good swing on 01 and really lights up if you get that move right (late in the course or not). However I found 02 to be slightly more stable for people like me who have slightly weaker edge changes and fly off the handle at the bouy as 02 is a little more aggressive in the start of the turn which I found lets me know where the ski is much easier.

11 minutes ago, lkb said:

Hey Rob how would you describe the works 01? 

 

[lkb]

36 minutes ago, RobHazelwood said:

2025 is pretty damn awesome and brought a lot of very good changes to the 2023/24 shape. A lot more balanced on the pre turn than the 2023/24 and a lot more drive from the front of the ski die to the smaller bevels. It's a ski that rewards drive and attacking, on lot of skis if you overload them they will throw you inside to the bouy. The 01 moves off second side like no ski out there and there is so much potential in being able to make that move stronger and it being easier to carry more speed outward bound to a better path. However in contrast to the 02, it maybe is slightly less forgiving if you are prone to skiing straight to the bouy. The Rotation comes from very good swing on 01 and really lights up if you get that move right (late in the course or not). However I found 02 to be slightly more stable for people like me who have slightly weaker edge changes and fly off the handle at the bouy as 02 is a little more aggressive in the start of the turn which I found lets me know where the ski is much easier.

 

Thanks is the 2025 01 available to demo? I went to HO’s website but purchase/demo didn’t seem to be an option. 
I’m currently skiing the 24 and would like to see if the 25 is good enough for me to switch?

thanks 

[Dano]

4 hours ago, RobHazelwood said:

Coming off an R2 you're looking for something 'slower' but more predictable, stable and happy to rotate. In contrast to something that's very 'tracky' and aggressive that will fly you across course but need a better path/movements to rotate.

@RobHazelwood  thank you very much for your insights.  Your description of the R2 is pretty accurate.  I'm not sure i'm looking for all of those traits in my next ski.  I use to ride a 2015 Vapor (the blue ski)  That ski was what I would describe as a fast ski, created a lot of space before the buoy, and  had very quick rotational turns.  Was not as forgiving as the R2 so if you got on the back a little things didn't end well.   I really liked that ski as well.

From what i felt on the works 02, it was super stable, lighter or easier thru the wakes, created more space before the ball, and had more of a tight carving turn if that's a good description of it? Impressed, especially since I know it was too big for me.  It certainly checked a lot of boxes.  As mentioned It was too big for me so I really didn't to experience the best of the Works 02. 

 

 

[RobHazelwood]

3 hours ago, Dano said:

@RobHazelwood  thank you very much for your insights.  Your description of the R2 is pretty accurate.  I'm not sure i'm looking for all of those traits in my next ski.  I use to ride a 2015 Vapor (the blue ski)  That ski was what I would describe as a fast ski, created a lot of space before the buoy, and  had very quick rotational turns.  Was not as forgiving as the R2 so if you got on the back a little things didn't end well.   I really liked that ski as well.

From what i felt on the works 02, it was super stable, lighter or easier thru the wakes, created more space before the ball, and had more of a tight carving turn if that's a good description of it? Impressed, especially since I know it was too big for me.  It certainly checked a lot of boxes.  As mentioned It was too big for me so I really didn't to experience the best of the Works 02. 

 

 

Sounds like you need to give a medium 02 a go... 

But yes, from what I see the R2 is quite s slow ski across course even with angle. One thing I find with 02 is I actually find it faster than some inherently 'fast' skis because of the way it builds angle through the backside that rockets you across course. I much prefer this to a fast ski that just shoots you at the bouy angle or not

[Horton]

It would be awesome if there was a single concise answer to the original question. There is not.

Before going down this road at all we need to establish some assumptions. The first few rides on any ski need to be at bone stock. Given a choice of Long/Shallow or Short/Deep you must choose one or the other and use it every ski. Ideally, the choice should be similar to your current ski. ( I almost always ski with Short/Deep on every ski )

Bindings also need to be set to stock. This generally requires some sort of Micro-Adjust and you need to understand how your personal binding measures compared to each ski company’s bindings. Example – A classic Reflex boot or HO hardshell usually needs to be about 1/8^” farther back than a Radar boot on the same ski.

Once those variables are minimized we can start trying to understand attributes.

The first thing I notice about any ski is “roll stability”. In other words, do I need to make an extra effort to keep my feet underneath me and my inside shoulder up off the second wake? A ski that is super free in roll is often a great on side turning ski if you can manage it. If you can not manage it then you are going to spend some time swimming.

Forward and aft stability into off side is often the second thing I notice. Is the ski reactive to small changes in my stance and does the ski require me to stand exactly in the right place to smoothly arc through the turn?

Speed is often misunderstood. A fast ski allows the skier to work less to get from side to side. A decade ago many skis were slow enough that we talked about if a ski would get you wide enough. In 2024 that might be irrelevant.  

A slower ski, often with more tunnel volume, has more grip and is often more forgiving at the ball. The biggest upside to a fast ski is you can be more relaxed through centerline and theoretically more in control. With a very slow ski it is easy to find yourself working so hard that technique goes out the window. Personally, I usually ski best on skis that are moderately slow-ish.

A ski that feels super fast at the ball might just be the skier losing direction off the second wake. Of course, settings can change the perception and reality of a ski’s speed.

These and a few other tangible attributes are relatively easy to understand and then we get into the weeds. The perfect ski is the ski that is hard to describe because when you are in the course it just works. It becomes an extension of the skier.  

Did I answer any questions? Guess not. Sorry.

[Drago]

On 9/13/2024 at 12:16 PM, Dano said:

super stable, lighter or easier thru the wakes, created more space before the ball, and had more of a tight carving turn

I mean, what else is there?

[Dano]

@Drago I don’t really know that’s kinda the point if this thread.  The tight carving turns of the works 02 are a new element to me. The R2 had quick rotational turns that suited me, was stable and predictable, but I felt it just didn’t make space  easily.  I would call it the best ski for me that I have been on.  If I could keep all the traits of the  R2 and get cross course just a little faster I think j that would be magical.  

I’m not opposed to the works O2 I’m sure it’s. a really good ski and it may be just what I’m looking for.   I’m hoping to learn more about the other skis out there.  

[RobHazelwood]

 

9 hours ago, Dano said:

@Drago I don’t really know that’s kinda the point if this thread.  The tight carving turns of the works 02 are a new element to me. The R2 had quick rotational turns that suited me, was stable and predictable, but I felt it just didn’t make space  easily.  I would call it the best ski for me that I have been on.  If I could keep all the traits of the  R2 and get cross course just a little faster I think j that would be magical.  

I’m not opposed to the works O2 I’m sure it’s. a really good ski and it may be just what I’m looking for.   I’m hoping to learn more about the other skis out there.  

Generalising a lot here but A ski that slips a lot doesn't tend to result in speed across course as the things that make the ski grip and track across course are the things that 'reduce' the rotation/slip in the turn. It's like a small fin, it will rotate very quick but won't go anywhere. It's all about finding the middle ground and what works for you.