PerfectPass, boat path and auto steer.

[On_edge]

PerfectPath. Does not require cell phones or WIFI. Graphical ( breadcrumb) screen. Numerical screen. Pylon antenna mount. This is PerfectPilot in control without a skier.

[tjs1295]

I don’t know about any of that, but I want to see more pictures of your boat. Love those blue, black, and white Nautiques. 

[Horton]

@On_edge 

Eric,
I know who you are and understand what you are showing but 99.99% of the readers here will have no idea. Can you please spell it out for the Ballers.  

[BGrow76]

@On_edge Those numbers make sense to those of us who use SurePath. What else can you tell us about how the system works? How does PerfectPilot integrate into our current boats and what will be the approximate cost?

[On_edge]

 The system is very similar to the existing boat path monitoring systems, a fixed base station transmits the correction messages to the boat (rover) unit resulting in RTK centimeter accuracy position data being calculated at a rate of ten measurements per second. The boat module has a previously user calibrated centerline for the course in use and it displays the deviation of the boat from this line At each set of guide buoys it displays the pylon deviation in centimeters as a ‘Buoy’ result.

 There will be three systems offered.

1. A stand-alone PerfectPath system composed of three main components, a small base station module, a small boat module, a display module similar to an existing PP external display and two GNSS antennas, everything is powered with USB cords.

2. A combination system which will include a conventional PerfectPass speed control system and PerfectPath boat path  system sharing a single master module and a single dash display unit. Switching from one application to the other will be a single keypress. The RTK base and boat modules together with the antennas will also be required.

3. The PerfectPilot system will be a separate control module which obtains the deviation data from the PerfectPath application software and controls a steering servo motor. The steering wheel is always completely connected in a failsafe manner to the rudder and the driver can take control at anytime.

 Although discussions are ongoing with suppliers, the present target pricing is approximately 60% of exiting systems.

 

 

[Mateo_Vargas]

@On_edgehow does the base station communicate with the rover and how far away can it be? Will work without cell coverage or wifi?

[On_edge]

Point to point data radios, 0.5 mi ( .75 km) range, no cell coverage or WiFi required.

[Zman]

@On_edge  I'm curious what ski boats will this system work in?  Even in boats currently running ZO?

[On_edge]

 This is simply a boat path measurement system, it will work in any ski boat with ZO, the basic system has no connection to the speed control system. 

[Mateo_Vargas]

We'll sign me up for PerfectPath. Running ZO in the '07 196 but still have the PerfectPass display in dash for the hour meter function. One lake I ski has poor cell reception so sounds like the PerfectSolution!

[ETskier]

Here we go again. Another technological marvel will be adopted by AWSA and the boat companies, for which no self driving retrofit will be available for older boats. That $100K  3 year old boat just might be worthless in a couple years.

That said, I like the Perfect Path system concept.  Perfect Pilot, no way.

[On_edge]

 PerfectPilot is still under development but it is a system that can be added to any ski boat of any year with less than an hour installation time . As you can see the test boat is a 2008 SN. The expected market for this product will be skiers who do not have access to practice drivers of a tournament level.

[DW]

What is needed for boats already equipped with PP and/or don't have an extra hole for another display or want an extra display.

[On_edge]

The combo system will combine a normal PP speed control with a PerfectPath system in one box and require only a single display. The two systems will run concurrently and you can view either process at any time.

[EFW]

See- I told you guys you just don't want to listen. They do more than just sell coffee and donuts in Canada.

[Alberto Soares]

Looking forward, great job!

[Drago]

I guess I don't understand. This is an auto-steer system, or a measuring system?

[EFW]

18 minutes ago, Drago said:

I guess I don't understand. This is an auto-steer system, or a measuring system?

It can be either or. (that's the way I read it) Opt for just the path or get the steering also which would have to include the boat path.  This could possibly be as big as the Leafs winning the cup!

[DW]

@On_edge - my question was more geared towards 'Will my current PP system end up on Ski-it-Again when I purchase this one   v.   I buy x,y,z to integrate with the existing system' (ala Z box as an example).

[BGrow76]

@On_edge Thanks for the information so far. For those boats that currently have Zero Off and SurePath can just PerfectPilot be installed?

[Fastguy888]

A interesting play by Perfect Pass to build a cutting edge path measurement tool / auto steer product when I understood there to be a truce that Zero Off gets to play with new boats and PP with old... Is this the Path measurement and autosteer solution for older boats? Or possibly a leap-frog technology that will put Perfect Pass back into new boats next to Zero Off? I love my PP Stargazer in my 1994 Tige SLM and like the idea that some retrofit tech could overcome early era slalom boats tracking shortfalls (with computers maintaining path faster than any human could).

[rockdog]

Is this a major product announcement here but at the same time a soft announcement? Wow. A cheaper and more simplified version of a Surepath at 60% of the price? With the option of AUTOSTEER?

This is the most low-key announcement I've ever seen in my life.

Every boat owner yet to get Surepath on this site should be immediately interested in buying including me.

@On_edge you really need an accompanying tutorial/explanatory video or similar to go with this.

[Mastercrafter]

Curious if there will be a non-circular gauge option for those of us with no circular gauges. 

[Mateo_Vargas]

@On_edgewill PerfectPath have the ability to survey a course?

[ETskier]

@On_edge Thank you for the followup to my post. If Perfect Pilot will work on all boats, then fine. Sorry I reacted so quickly. The ZO-E Controls-AWSA conspiracy hurt many of us, your company too I presume.  You can see why I don't trust the process. 

[On_edge]

Component Description.

Part A. Round, white GNSS antenna as shown in above photo attached to the pylon mount.

Part B. Boat or base RTK module, same enclosure as used by the Z-Box, not the final production label.

Part C. Display unit, includes the deviation computer and circuits for the LCD display.

 

[EFW]

15 minutes ago, On_edge said:

Component Description.

Part A. Round, white GNSS antenna as shown in above photo attached to the pylon mount.

Part B. Boat or base RTK module, same enclosure as used by the Z-Box, not the final production label.

Part C. Display unit, includes the deviation computer and circuits for the LCD display.

 

This is absolutely the way to go, without a doubt. An integrated system. I get so sick and tired of hearing  "Your boat doesn't have ZO mine does" ( how about F--- you!) now you can say "Your boat doesn't have Perfect Path mine does." All three in one, that is the way to go speed, path and steering one unit. This is from the same country that brought you Tim Hortons now making old boats relevant again!

14 minutes ago, On_edge said:

Component Description.

Part A. Round, white GNSS antenna as shown in above photo attached to the pylon mount.

Part B. Boat or base RTK module, same enclosure as used by the Z-Box, not the final production label.

Part C. Display unit, includes the deviation computer and circuits for the LCD display.

 

 

[On_edge]

System description.

1. Base station. Part A antenna and Part B module required. The base is calibrated and programmed from the boat using the display unit. Once programmed for a given exact location it will resume sending the correction data upon powering back up without further calibration. 

2. Boat system. Part A antenna and pylon mount, Part B module and Part C display unit. Part B calculates an extremely accurate latitude and longitude location, Part C uses this data to calculate the boat deviation in centimeters from the course centerline and displays the results for each pass on the LCD screen.

3. Part C can be replaced with a specifically programmed PP master module and it’s round in-dash display.

 Although an earlier version of the PerfectPath system was examined by the USA Waterski technical group returning several suggestions, later this fall the system will be run in parallel with SP at one or more RC tournaments and the results from both system will be compared by the technical committee. If successful the PerfectPath system will be approved for tournament use.

Yes to survey, once the entrance and exit gate buoys, G1,G2,G15and G16 are captured with the portable antenna the course centerline is created and then the location of all turn buoys and boat guide buoys can be captured and recorded relative to this centerline, a simple text file can be sent containing the survey results.

Communication between the PerfectPath process and the PerfectPilot system is presently a specific format for this application.

[Drago]

22 hours ago, EFW said:

  22 hours ago, Drago said:

I guess I don't understand. This is an auto-steer system, or a measuring system?

@On_edge? 

[On_edge]

It is two separate systems, PerfectPath is a boat path measuring system showing a continuous boat path and centerline deviation measurements at each set of boat gates, PerfectPilot is an auto-steer system that responds to the stream of course deviation data sent to it by the PerfectPath system. The driver is in full normal control until the boat passes the 55m pregates, the auto-steer begins to engage at that point and continues to steer until the boat passes the exit gates, at anytime the driver can take full  control.

[BraceMaker]

On 9/2/2024 at 8:36 PM, ETskier said:

Here we go again. Another technological marvel will be adopted by AWSA and the boat companies, for which no self driving retrofit will be available for older boats. That $100K  3 year old boat just might be worthless in a couple years.

That said, I like the Perfect Path system concept.  Perfect Pilot, no way.

We always look at this backwards does a perfect pilot make sense to someone who is on a private lake with people who drive the course daily over and over?  Maybe not much, but sure seems like if it works I could install 6 turn balls and 2 right hand gate balls and have a skiable course with 8 total balls.

[DW]

50 minutes ago, BraceMaker said:

We always look at this backwards does a perfect pilot make sense to someone who is on a private lake with people who drive the course daily over and over?  

Or look at it from being on a private ski lake and your only driver option is someone who is not that skilled, nervous to pull you through the course or 'in training' and planning to abandon the training wheels down the line.  It does not take long to dig up comments of driver despair from skiers.  Kudos to continued R&D.

[Horton]

I can see both sides of this. I think the roll-out of ZO likely hurt tournament participation substantially. Let us not forget the guy who purchased a boat in 2007 and within a year it was functionally obsolete for tournament practice.  A lot of those guys kept skiing but never showed up at another tournament. ( the real reason for the abrupt change was because of a patent lawsuit - that is another thread)

The fact remains most of us now think ZO is far superior.  ( I have not skied Star Gazer in over 10 years so IDK the current comparison. )

With that in mind, introduction of auto steer could be a boon for skiing or a total boondoggle. If we wake up one day and new/expensive hardware is mandated for tournaments, I would consider it a likely disaster. On the other hand, if auto steer is available for those whose skiing situation warrants it I think it would be fantastic. 

The idea of driving being identical at every lake/event/behind every boat is very appealing. The part that worries me is the transition from manual to auto-steering.  

[jjackkrash]

I doubt it is going to feel like hand driving and I suspect the boat will take the line away from the skier to keep it straight.  I am actually ok with this as long as it's fair and consistent but watch the initial bitching.  Maybe not but we'll see I guess.

The bigger downside is how boring is driving going to be.  I love driving the boat.  I am not sure I am going to love just sitting in the seat doing nothing while the skier is in the course.  Again, I guess we'll see.     

[Drago]

2 hours ago, On_edge said:

. The driver is in full normal control until the boat passes the 55m pregates, the auto-steer begins to engage at that point and continues to steer until the boat passes the exit gates, at anytime the driver can take full  control.

All at 60% of the cost of SurePath? I'll order one today, heading to your www right after this)

I think it needs to engage prior to the 55s , or it doesn't address the biggest problem I've noticed with drivers (and explains the -8, +2  even without a skier)

*not on the website yet

Edited September 4 by Drago
Update

[jcamp]

@On_edge will PerfectPilot work on floating courses? 

 

[Alberto Soares]

@jcamp - unfortunately it will not work, it uses fixed earth points that the floating courses can't comply.

[On_edge]

These are two separate products with two separate prices, development work is continuing on the PerfectPilot system to improve the repeatability. Alberto is correct a floating course that can move will not have a fixed centerline thus the path and auto-steer will not work.

[Alberto Soares]

This system is perfect for private lakes where you can leave the base station at the shore and a short distance from the boat as it uses radio transmission. It will not work in my case  as I can't leave the base station unattended at a public lake.

[paul]

Interesting.

firstly, it will work on a floating course if you can stabilize the course enough. I’ve been working on that and can get repeatable results in calm water so far.

secondly, I love the dash integration. But, a question for @On_edge - why not integrate the Stargazer GPS puck (with an offset) and use that signal versus the pylon mount? Different signal?

imo - BPMS should be completely integrated within new boats - no extra displays or GPS pucks. 

[Zman]

4 hours ago, On_edge said:

These are two separate products with two separate prices, development work is continuing on the PerfectPilot system to improve the repeatability. Alberto is correct a floating course that can move will not have a fixed centerline thus the path and auto-steer will not work.

We should be good with our floating course as we have one end permanently anchored with a screw-in anchor on the lake bottom at one end, and the anchor line at the other end goes through the eyelet of a another screw auger ahead of the anchor weights.  This permanently fixes the course centerline.

[Mastercrafter]

Just now, Zman said:

We should be good with our floating course as we have one end permanently anchored with a screw-in anchor on the lake bottom at one end, and the anchor line at the other end goes through the eyelet of a another screw auger ahead of the anchor weights.  This permanently fixes the course centerline.

When we're talking deviations in centimeters, any light wind will still likely push the middle of the course out of spec enough for the system to be meaningless. 

Even individually anchored courses can get blown by wind enough to move the boat guides over and give "bad" Surepath numbers. 

[Zman]

58 minutes ago, Mastercrafter said:

When we're talking deviations in centimeters, any light wind will still likely push the middle of the course out of spec enough for the system to be meaningless. 

Even individually anchored courses can get blown by wind enough to move the boat guides over and give "bad" Surepath numbers. 

Good point.  We may still be good as our predominant winds are up or down course.  We pretty much never see any 'curve' in our course.  No doubt it could still move slightly in some conditions, but the BPMS should still provide valuable feedback, I would think.

[paul]

Unfortunately it won’t. The course will shift sideways even in a straight head/tailwind especially when you throw prop wash into the mix. 
 

the best results are on courses in shallow water with long anchor lines with side anchors (anchor lines connected at the 55’s) pulling the entire course sideways to take out the shift in the course.

[BGrow76]

If you think about it all courses are floating courses, even ones with individual anchors for each buoy. If you have individual anchors for each buoy in 25' feet of water you could potentially get move movement from wind in your course than a floating course in 6' of water with a stainless mainline that is properly anchored at each end. 

[Zman]

@paul If you are saying any boat path monitoring system will not be helpful in a well tensioned, fixed centerline floating course, I guess I will just have to respectfully disagree.  I have had the opportunity to use SP for a day on our lake and it did prove helpful for seeing how our driving could improve.

I am hopeful this new PerfectPath system will offer another option at a lower cost, with no cell phone coverage or wifi required.

Perhps @On_edge Eric will chime in how effective (or ineffective) his system would be with a fixed centerline floating course.

I can assure that you can look down our course anytime and all 10 buoys on each side of the boat path are perfectly in line, except the slight added width of the entrance gates. It is not possible for a well tensioned course to shift sideways without some slight curve.

[buechsr]

14 hours ago, BGrow76 said:

If you think about it all courses are floating courses, even ones with individual anchors for each buoy. If you have individual anchors for each buoy in 25' feet of water you could potentially get move movement from wind in your course than a floating course in 6' of water with a stainless mainline that is properly anchored at each end. 

Sorry, but this is not accurate if done correctly.  You can have a course in 100' of water be dead on even with wind.  This is because the sub-buoys, which are not subject to any wind interference, are what controls the vertical integrity.  So if you're in 100' of water with a sub 5' below the surface, or 10' of water with the sub 5' below the surface, they're both only subject to movement from the sub to the buoy.  There's no more "leverage" on a long riser line than a short one in the same wind.   An individually-buoyed course in any depth of water is more accurate than any floating course.