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Nationals Open Women


The_MS
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@LeonL The vast majority of Open Men that competed are either California based or were there working. 
 

Corey Vaughn - working the S-Lines/KD booth

Nate Smith - 

Ryan Canepa - California based

Terry Winter - California based

Jon Travers - working the HO booth

Brian Detrick - California based

Blaze Grubbs - California based

Zane Nicholson - working for TWBC

Cole Giacopuzzi - California based

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On 8/16/2024 at 5:48 PM, sunperch said:

IF I just wanted a trophy, I could have signed up for MW or OW and made the podium by going through the gates..........

You have to be above the cutoff or Level 9, you can’t just enter a division. 😂 Few MW or OW qualified (especially in overall) and hardly any went. 🤷‍♀️ 

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Posted (edited)

over the seasons some divisions are thin and others full and competitive. photo from 15 years ago open men overall..at that time there were at least a dozen open men in awsa that were competitive and a couple True open/pro stand outs,, they did not show up.. does that make it any less important to those that did?

this years nationals thin in most divisions and events. a couple steady divisions men 7 the biggest. men 3 not so big..the ones that showed up came for a chance at a national title. Did all the best skiers on the "rankings" list show up??? nope the the ones that did came, game on! 

shout out to Jazzy for her back to back national win.. in two different divisions. next year MW? 

 

 

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Edited by Jody_Seal
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@ErinPeckham, there are also about 10 additional skiers in their age divisions with MW elite status that haven't skied as MW.  So, it is certainly an accomplishment to choose to challenge yourself in that division, with all the additional pressure that it must bring.

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The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.

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Pro Tour Regulars

Top OW:  Jamie, Whitney, Neeley, Paige, Alice, Vanesa, all foreign. But, where were Regina, Allie N, Liz, Allie G, Chelsea (injury?), Karen?

Top OM: Will, Rob, Steven N, Joel, Sledge, all foreign. Only Steven I missing?  Dane is injured. US men well represented.

Could be no money offered, travel, work obligations. US nationals not prestigious? 

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I have no idea what @The_MS is saying. The Open and Masters divisions are too sparsely attended - always. When the divisions are small, there is more pressure on the few there to perform well. If you blow your run, you are DFL even if you medal - no anonymity in the back of the pack. Those who show up earned their place and our respect for choosing the challenging path.

@Zman  M7 skiers were happy my scores don't count - but it was fun for all to play together (overall skiers get to ski age division as well at Regionals and Nationals).

I am proud and honored to have qualified and participated - and hope I have helped keep the divisions alive. 

Eric

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I think I'm viewing this in a very different way.  I see it as a great thing that there is an actual pro tour that is building momentum, and I do not expect professional athletes to compete with no money on the line any more than I expect to write software for a company that doesn't pay me.

Of course, the presence of these divisions at Nationals are another story.  I would always make a tournament either have age groups or be all OM/OW/MM/MW -- never both.  Generally making athletes choose their division is bad in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, EM_ said:

@ErinPeckham first of all, congratulations on your win! I hope you haven’t taken that medal off — you deserve it.🥇As someone who has poked the bear many times, don’t let anyone steal the joy of this win. Everyone “can” be an open/masters skier… until they can’t 😉

I can’t speak for all OW, but I budgeted for 2 “big” trips this year and I chose Moomba and the Africa/Europe tour. Training and tournaments add up 💸

Yes, big congrats to all the skiers at nationals.

@EM_ I don't get to watch you ski enough, but I do love your IG account.  Great content!!!

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I guess I was leading toward having a prize money, tour points,  US Open in conjunction with our nationals. I would watch that on TWBC and even chip in toward it.

I know that was tried a couple times recently, but don't know why that didn't work.

Don't get me wrong here. It's very grueling and expensive to ski in the tour. Most don't even cover their costs much less earn a living at it. 

And some may want to ski in their home country or continental championships.

I wish there was some way they would be enticed to participate here if the schedule works.

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26 minutes ago, MitchellM said:

 I don't get to watch you ski enough, but I do love your IG account.  Great content!!!

Thank you so much for following along! I’m so grateful for this life I get to live! ❤️‍🔥

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I know that was tried a couple times recently, but don't know why that didn't work.

Organizing Nationals in itself is quite a feat. Organizing a successful pro event is a ton of work. Trying to do both at the same time is not something many people are going to sign up for. I have been Tournament Director for both the US Nationals and 2 pro events. Especially when you consider that the US Open requires having sizable purses for mens and women slalom, trick, and jump. 

@JeffSurdej could give you numbers, but I bet you're talking north of $100k to put on the U.S. Open.

If each of you want to throw in $5k I'm sure they can make it happen next year.

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On 8/18/2024 at 3:06 PM, ErinPeckham said:

@sunperch as the woman who placed first in MW, I have to say that your sarcasm is not appreciated and is extremely disrespectful. You have to earn the right to ski in MW and OW. There are 10 women on the MW ranking list….4 of them skied in MW at Nationals and 2 of them skied in their age divisions. That means only 4 other women that COULD ski in MW weren’t able to come. People have real lives and not everyone can come to Nationals every single year.
 

My family drove from New York to California to compete and I’m just really grateful that I got to stand on the podium with 3 other amazing women that respect each other and put in the work to EARN a spot on the podium in an ELITE division instead of sitting at home on their computer judging a situation that they know nothing about.

@ErinPeckhamCongratulations to you, your husband, and both of your girls that competed. All four of you taking home medals! Hopefully, that helped a bit when it was time to tackle your long drive home to New York!

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Seems odd there is tons of complaining about too many kids divisions but none about redundant adult divisions.  I remember well @Jody_seal expressing displeasure w/the idea of adding MW/MM when it was being considered and rightfully so, imo.  Also, seems odd, in a sad way, M7 was the largest division at this years Nats.  While I'm a John Zimmerman fan I don't see M7 being the largest division as a good sign for the future of competitive waterskiing.  One of or all G1/B1-G5/B5 being the largest would be a good sign. 

There is nothing wrong w/@Sunperch being sarcastic  (@Sunperch has competed in many Nats and officiated many ski events.  She is far from out of touch).  Adults should be able to handle it.  So there are only 10 MW?  Why does that constitute a separate division?  Could it be adults are the ones who want a trophy for everyone except as long as it's not a kid?  It's ok for 5 of 10 adults (or in this case 4) getting a trophy but heaven forbid any small G1/B1-G5/B5 division give out a trophy that isn't gained by defeating numerous competitors.  Pretty sad.  Pretty sure I could copy/paste this and put it in the post concerning "why is slalom dying" and it would fit right in. 

 

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"My impression of comments that may come across as dismissive of National's competitors is that they seem sarcastic or flippant, but are probably not intended to be disparaging. However, if I've misunderstood and any of the above comments are meant to be disparaging, I'd like to remind everyone of the first rule of BallOfSpray: 'Don’t be a dick.'”

@TheMS is asking a fair question. Why are these fields so small? Maybe we are at an inflection point with our current division structure. Should there even be Masters and Open divisions at Nationals? Masters and Open are ability-based divisions in an otherwise age group sport. 

@Broussard’s below answer about the Open Men also sheds a lot of light on who was and was not at Nationals.

On 8/17/2024 at 10:41 AM, Broussard said:

The vast majority of Open Men that competed are either California based or were there working. 
 

Corey Vaughn - working the S-Lines/KD booth

Nate Smith - 

Ryan Canepa - California based

Terry Winter - California based

Jon Travers - working the HO booth

Brian Detrick - California based

Blaze Grubbs - California based

Zane Nicholson - working for TWBC

Cole Giacopuzzi - California based

 

I have heard more than one Pro skier say they only ski Pro events and that skiing amateur events is usually not in their best interest.  This is especially true of the jumpers. 

 

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5 hours ago, EM_ said:

Thank you so much for following along! I’m so grateful for this life I get to live! ❤️‍🔥

@EM_I really enjoyed your podcast with Tyler Boyd. Lots of insightful answers. I actually listened to it a second time yesterday, during a two hour drive. 

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@ErinPeckham congrats on your win, that is great skiing!  You are a much better skier than I am or ever will be. I have never even come close to getting on the podium at Nationals, all of the times that I have attended with my whole family (my kids did, though!) I have raised 2 kids, worked and skied all at the same time for many years, I think that is my real life....  I have skied many Regionals and Nationals and have judged at both as well, so I am very in touch with the sport.  In fact, I had to dry off before I typed this as I was out swimming to adjust bouys and boat guides for the tournaments that we are having at our lake this up coming weekend. My skiing philosophy is that I will not be able to out ski the women in my division, but I am going to try to out last them and continue to ski to a ripe old age! Nothing I typed as the above described keyboard warrior was critical of the skiers, again, great job!  I am critical of the increase in the number of divisions that has been even more challenging since membership numbers in AWSA have dropped.  I believe that robust competition is more fun, even if I don't have a chance to beat the better women.  Skiing with the greats motivate me to keep trying and give me another chance to learn.  The increase number of division also creates an increased cost for the LOC of Regionals and Nationals, not to mention the time that is wasted changing out boat crews, judges, etc.

@Inboardfix Oh, the fun our families have had together since our girls met on the dock at Okeeheelee in G1, singing so loudly before their ski ride. Great memories of all the fun trips to West Palm x3, Boise, San Marcos x2, Kansas, Zachery.  

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1 hour ago, MrJones said:

I will re-hash this every time it comes up....

Why did AWSA ever separate the US Open from the US Nationals? It killed the former and certainly did not help the latter.

Comes up pretty much every year. The us open should be smack-dab in the middle of Nationals. 

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@MrJones @Drago When US Open was at Nationals back in the 1980 / 1990 who organized it? I do not know the answer but sponsorship dollars were a lot easier to get than today. We could have US Open back at Nationals but who is going to organize it? It is a job for USAWS or AWSA? 

I know that if someone had come to SkiWest with the prize money and some organizational help SkiWest would have had a America's Cup or US Open. 

Seems I have heard some story about whoever owns the copyright on "US Open of Water Skiing" wanting to get paid to use the trademark. Someone might need to fact check me on that. 

 

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The last few years there was a Pro event accompanying Nationals, was that never considered for this year? It may be underestimated the influence that has on someone amateur attending themselves as it adds to the value of the trip. 

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1 hour ago, Horton said:

@MrJones @Drago When US Open was at Nationals back in the 1980 / 1990 who organized it? I do not know the answer but sponsorship dollars were a lot easier to get than today. We could have US Open back at Nationals but who is going to organize it? It is a job for USAWS or AWSA? 

I know that if someone had come to SkiWest with the prize money and some organizational help SkiWest would have had a America's Cup or US Open. 

Seems I have heard some story about whoever owns the copyright on "US Open of Water Skiing" wanting to get paid to use the trademark. Someone might need to fact check me on that. 

 

@HortonI.Don't.Know.
My guess is awsa. I was always told they ran Nationals and (have) pocketed much of the Nationals money. If there's a trademark, it must have expired by now. The last US Open was in Disneyworld at night (won by @MarcusBrown) in 2007. Whatever, call it something else.

Can I be frank, Frank? imho- "we" are spending way too much money on CEOs, buildings, lakes nobody uses, etc, and not enough dough is being spent on retention and youth/grassroots. 

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13 minutes ago, Drago said:

I was always told they ran Nationals and (have) pocketed much of the Nationals money

after a pro water ski event, there is no money to pocket. not that I can imagine

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@Drago The last U.S. Open was at Waters Edge in Wilmington, IL in 2021: 24th Morilee U.S. Open of Water Skiing.

Prior to that Nautique hosted the 22nd U.S. Open of Water Skiing on Lake Ivanhoe in Orlando in 2015 and the 23rd U.S. Open of Waterskiing at Okeeheelee Park in West Palm Beach in 2016.

Based on some preliminary searching it appears that the U.S. Open was created in 1987 during Steve Combs' tenure as Director of AWSA and was held in conjunction with Nationals. AWSA owned the rights to the U.S. Open, but I believed that was transferred to USAWS (now USA-WSWS) during the great reorganization in our plight to obtain the olympic dream. I believe they (USA-WSWS) still own the rights to the U.S. Open of Waterskiing.

USA-WSWS may own the rights to the U.S. Nationals, but they do not run it. USA-WSWS receives a portion of the entry fee for Nationals, that's all they are pocketing. 

USA-WSWS does not own a building, nor do they have a lake. Neither does AWSA for that matter.

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I walked by the TV when the young girl set a WR for adaptive, can't remember the details (I'm old) but wow, that was cool and inspirational to accidently catch.  Kudos to have the hutzpah to compete against, and be, one of the best at the Nationals, spend the time training etc to compete at the elite amateur level.  Congratulations.  And thanks to TWBC for broadcasting so the world could see it.

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My first several nationals (in the early 1990's) had the US Open on Saturday and Sunday. For my first at Belle Aqua in '91 I stayed after skiing Friday just to watch it.

I would think the sponsors would all be behind it. Back then all the pros were at the vendor booths to hang out, sign autographs, and push new product. Yes a few US pros do this now, but back then the US Open pulled everyone.

I understand those days are gone, but they were pretty cool.

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23 hours ago, Broussard said:

@Drago The last U.S. Open was at Waters Edge in Wilmington, IL in 2021: 24th Morilee U.S. Open of Water Skiing.

Prior to that Nautique hosted the 22nd U.S. Open of Water Skiing on Lake Ivanhoe in Orlando in 2015 and the 23rd U.S. Open of Waterskiing at Okeeheelee Park in West Palm Beach in 2016.

Based on some preliminary searching it appears that the U.S. Open was created in 1987 during Steve Combs' tenure as Director of AWSA and was held in conjunction with Nationals. AWSA owned the rights to the U.S. Open, but I believed that was transferred to USAWS (now USA-WSWS) during the great reorganization in our plight to obtain the olympic dream. I believe they (USA-WSWS) still own the rights to the U.S. Open of Waterskiing.

USA-WSWS may own the rights to the U.S. Nationals, but they do not run it. USA-WSWS receives a portion of the entry fee for Nationals, that's all they are pocketing. 

USA-WSWS does not own a building, nor do they have a lake. Neither does AWSA for that matter.

I stand corrected. Great job.

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On 8/19/2024 at 8:01 PM, sunperch said:

@ErinPeckham congrats on your win, that is great skiing!  You are a much better skier than I am or ever will be. I have never even come close to getting on the podium at Nationals, all of the times that I have attended with my whole family (my kids did, though!) I have raised 2 kids, worked and skied all at the same time for many years, I think that is my real life....  I have skied many Regionals and Nationals and have judged at both as well, so I am very in touch with the sport.  In fact, I had to dry off before I typed this as I was out swimming to adjust bouys and boat guides for the tournaments that we are having at our lake this up coming weekend. My skiing philosophy is that I will not be able to out ski the women in my division, but I am going to try to out last them and continue to ski to a ripe old age! Nothing I typed as the above described keyboard warrior was critical of the skiers, again, great job!  I am critical of the increase in the number of divisions that has been even more challenging since membership numbers in AWSA have dropped.  I believe that robust competition is more fun, even if I don't have a chance to beat the better women.  Skiing with the greats motivate me to keep trying and give me another chance to learn.  The increase number of division also creates an increased cost for the LOC of Regionals and Nationals, not to mention the time that is wasted changing out boat crews, judges, etc.

 

@sunperch It sounds like you have made a wonderful contribution to our sport through the years.  I'm certainly not questioning the value you have added to tournament skiing....our sport exists because of competitors and volunteers, regardless of skill level.

On 8/19/2024 at 8:01 PM, sunperch said:

The increase number of division also creates an increased cost for the LOC of Regionals and Nationals, not to mention the time that is wasted changing out boat crews, judges, etc.

I'm not understanding how 2 additional divisions (MM & MW) is an increased cost for the LOC.  My family brought 5 skiers to Nationals.  We spent $320 on practice sets and $715 on entry fees.  I'm pretty sure Ski West was VERY happy to have us there, regardless of the division we chose to ski in.

I'm also guessing that Timberlake Water Ski Club in Virginia was happy to have us support their Regionals tournament.

Time wasted changing out boat crews?!?!?!? I genuinely do not understand. 

 

 

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All of the recent Nationals have had some type of Pro event associated with it.  Was that considered or attempted at all for this year? It’s tough work, but also factors in to attendance. 

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@ErinPeckham You've made an extremely compelling case for the inclusion of MW in Nationals.

To be clear, I have only one issue, and it has nothing to do the existence of MM/MW/OM/OW.  My one and only concern is that when any skier can choose division, it leads to some weird dynamics.  Specifically, what division a given skier chooses can significantly impact the results in all of the divisions that skier could have chosen.

Perhaps you and Jason already have some good ideas to address this!  I personally have only thought of a few options, and I don't love any of them.

1) Get rid of these divisions at Nationals.  I'm kinda OK with this, but as I said you've made a compelling case that these divisions add a great deal of value for a certain audience -- and arguably one of the most important audiences for the event.

2) Set a cutoff score (or average or whatever) and those who are above the line must compete in their "super-elite" division.  Personally, I think this is the best option, but it's still not great because the threshold would be so arbitrary.  Still, I'd rather have a set line rather than the winner of the age division is "the best who chose not to compete in the super-elite division."

3) "Overlay" the super-elites as special prizes.  For example, give a giant medal and have a medal ceremony for the 5 best scores by a woman over 35 in any division.  This kinda sounds good at first blush, but I don't think it actually works.  The conditions could end up drastically different for different age groups, and it would be impractical for the all the top folks to hang around to the very end to see if they got a super-elite medal.  Plus it wouldn't have the "feel" of a competition.

So here's hoping you have better ideas!

Of course, what I'd really want the solution to be is drop MW from Nationals and replace it with an entire tour that is all MW.  That would be amazing competition and I would absolutely watch it.

But unfortunately, we can't just write a rule that says "now there will be Master Womens tour."  A whole lot of people would have to put in a whole lot of work to make that happen.  And it's unclear how any of them would get paid for their time.

So, yeah, someone do that please. 🙂  And email me the TWBC link!

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@Than_Bogan Not sure why you are an engineer (based on some of your other posts I surmise that is your occupation) when you obviously possess serious diplomacy skills.  Me, not so much.  

@ErinPeckham Congratulations on your MW win.  I'm happy you were able to stand on the podium next to JL. 

However, that doesn't justify having a redundant division and watering down the other divisions.  You would have won your division by less and may not have won.  As the top seed you would have been on the dock and watched Jazmine score 4@32.  Who knows what would have happened and we will never know because you didn't ski your division.  

Since my last post I looked up MW rated skiers and W3 not surprisingly has the highest#.  If all of them had skied your division it would have been one heck of a great competition.  Same is true for the WM competitors in W4/W5.  There simply isn't enough of a buoy count spread to justify watering down divisions already established. 

Same is true on the men's side.  Great scores and a decent amount of competitors in MM but the top scores in M3/M4/M5/M6 are not far behind.  MM competitors are amazing but look at the top 5-10 of the other divisions and there isn't much separation.  There is one outlier in MM w/Cale Burdick and one in M6 w/Greg Badal but other than those 2 it isn't like the rest of the MM pack is light years better than their true division competitors.  

Do you see lots of former pros skiing tournaments after they retire?  On the women's side of things @ this year's Nats I know of 2:  Jennifer LaPoint and Joy Kelly.  It should be noted JL competed at 32 mph and placed 2nd by .5 after the 6 buoy penalty w/a score of 3.5@32 (zbs adjusted from 3.5/35).  Doesn't seem right a Masters/elite division allows ZBS. 

As for Badass women who want to ski 34 once their mandated speed drops to 32: they don't get more Badass than JL and she chooses to ski at 32.  Most likely there are very few affected by this and certainly not enough to justify a separate division.  

Your arguments while emotionally viable don't stant up to scrutiny.  Reading them was like watching the political conventions.  

However, don't be distraught.  USAwaterski will not change a thing and your MW division will go on for perpetuity.  They'll likely reduce the kids divisions because lord know the kids don't deserve more medals (yes, like @Sunperch I'm being sarcastic). 

 

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