Boat path rerides

[LeonL]

Does any one but me think that the skier is just as likely to be at a disadvantage whether the deviation is positive or negative?  Consequently should all rerides be optional with the opportunity to improve the score?

[Horton]

@LeonL unfortunately it is a nuanced problem. None of your points are wrong but is just not cut and dry.

[darinmontgomery]

Rule 8.15 needs to be revised. Penalizing the skier for driver error is terrible. The rule should be the same for a positive or negative deviation. As the line gets shorter, 38 and beyond, a positive deviation of 25cm is not an advantage, it is a disadvantage. Hopefully, the rules committee will correct. 

[Jody_Seal]

"Driver error"? 

coming from the fishbowl mentality.

this years regional's had in my many years of experience the most terrible driving boats I have ever experienced at a regional's.

Malibu sent a 10 hour boat with no bimini and not set up to pull championship competition. on top of it some local decided it was a good idea drive by the boat house with the finish mower...... try driving short line slalom with grass clippings blowing up in your face... I miss Dennis Kelly..

two weeks before the regionals we had probability the best driving mastercraft on the planet at a state tournament. what showed up at regional's was some other long in the tooth heavy steering, gutless example shadow of what we drove earlier in the year. MC sent their " engineering boat as the back up... I took a peek at it on the trailer. glad it stayed on the trailer..

Nautique had a wonderful prepared SN from Russell marine but not before having it sabotage by a local driver that was confused on how a rudder tab needs to be set.

I was told be glad we got boats for the tournament.

I asked a prominent southern region driver what his fail rate for sure path was.. he said 70% I responded I think he was being generous. 

there is absolutely no consistency of the surepath mounting apratuses. location of of the mounting apratus. height of the antenna . these fixtures are being mounted to pylons that are loose in the boat as well as mounted on other locations nearby.. seen one a couple seasons ago mounted to the engine box lift handle, antenna leaning on a loose pylon. Eller driving I am boat judge we could not figure out why these funny numbers kept popping up off 1,3 and 5. we had Charlie Ross on the string at 38 and 39 every time Charlie loaded off 1,3 and 5 the receiver antenna was deflected towards BFE.

I have found that I need to either leave my Android cell phone out of the boat or turn it off as it will effect the consistency of sure path. have also found that with at least one sure path unit a strong hand held radio can effect sure path when keyed while sure path is collecting data..drivers are at the mercy of the tech controller as to how the system is calibrated. some of us drivers are lucky to have techs like Logan and Harris to set things up. however have seen a laxsey daisy selfie stick set up by others.

I actually like sure path as another instrument however making rules based off a system that can be easily disarmed, has a high fail rate and can be made inaccurate by other components is wrong. Drivers do not have eyes in the back of their heads and at 38 and shorter if a skier gets out a sorts that skier can pull the boat off line and there is nothing a driver can do. 

oh wait! it's driver error..!

Edited July 31 by Jody_Seal

[LeonL]

I was end course video video official at above mentioned regionals.  The portion that I worked confirms what @Jody_Seal said.  The boat was a hand full.  @Jody_Seal did an excellent job working with a BAD boat.

[JackQ]

I understand why the rule was originally constructed, it essentially replicates the logic of fast times/ slow times.  However the effects are not the same,  and the rule needs to be changed.  Skier should be allowed to improve, thought I think there is still debate on if it should be optional or mandatory.  

 

But just like the fast/slow time, there is a limit to how slow before a skier can improve( up to the point of the upper limit of slower speed) for boat path it would seem that the 25cm should apply for both + and -

[darinmontgomery]

@Jody_Seal all the more reasons to change the rule.

Regardless of the boat, mounts, antenna or driver, the rule needs to be revised so the skier is not penalized. Even if everything is perfect, the drivers are human and it doesn’t take much to have one bad buoy at 38 and beyond.

The way the rule is currently being applied for a positive deviation can determine the outcome of an event, penalizing the skier for something they have no control over. 

All of the drivers, skiers, and judges I spoken with about this rule agree it needs to be revised and hopefully it will for next year. 

 

[skierjp]

I believe the mounting of Sure Path and the antenna is the Techs responsibility and if it’s mounted wrong then I fix it or I don’t drive! No issues here in Central and Southern Florida. Curious how many Senior Drivers either own Sure Path or drive with it regularly? 

[DFWskier]

On 7/29/2024 at 8:37 PM, LeonL said:

Consequently should all rerides be optional with the opportunity to improve the score?

No. There has been times that drivers have given skiers the "dream weave" to help them ski better.

[darinmontgomery]

@DFWskier no doubt there has been some questionable driving patterns in the past and a “Dream Weave” is not the same for every skier. However, this is the exception and not the rule. Since SurePath, the driving patterns have tightened considerably, the boat path data and scores prove that is the case. 

Regardless of how the rules are written, the boat and skier set a rhythm. When they are in sync the scores are higher and the opposite is true when they’re not.  

The rules have a tolerance for max deviation buoy and cumulative. If the SurePath numbers are within the tolerance with a green screen all is good. Some drivers may be able to push the tolerance limits better than others which may suit some skiers better than others. This has always been part of the sport. 

Rule 8.15 currently penalizes the skier for something totally out of their control. This should never be the rule. Whether the driver intentionally or unintentionally had a max deviation positive or negative, the skier should be allowed to improve their score. 
 

[DFWskier]

@darinmontgomery

I hear ya. I played with the SurePath daily for about 6 weeks this summer. I have driven both slalom and trick at sanctioned events this season. I can't see writing re-ride rules based on negative / positive numbers. It would suck for the skier, like in the old PP days of times being off. One friend had to re-run a 36 -32 pass 4x in a tournament and was too gassed to run his -35.

I do think SP is a good tool. Is it necessary 100% of the time in practice? Not for me, only as an occasional sanity check. You may be doing your skier a disservice looking at the rover between passes, or trying to get that perfect single digit zone/buoy variance instead of sticking to the important task of driving. 

Again, to me, I loved knowing that one of my tournaments, four of my skiers PBd for the season and one of them was a lifetime PB. Surepath surely didnt help with that 🙂

[LeonL]

4 hours ago, DFWskier said:

. One friend had to re-run a 36 -32 pass 4x in a tournament and was too gassed to run his -35.
Now that was a bad driver.  I drove tournaments from hand driving up through PP and ZO, and unless there were intermittent gale force winds there is no excuse for not getting PP in tolerance in a reride situation. 
 

 

[Dano]

I was at a tournament last year. Watched the skier run -38.  Boat path was out of tolerance, Re ride. Runs the pass again.  same result.  In total I think he ran -38 4 times before the boat path was in tolerance. Skier was a good sport about it but I mean if he runs it once and the boat path wasn't acceptable, sure it's a re ride. Every skier gets the same rule, I'm fine with that.  if you run it again and the boat path is still bad that's a boat/driver issue.  Skier should get credit and move onto the next pass. 

 

 

[skierjp]

@Dano agreed plus the boat driver is replaced! 1 red is bad enough but the second time is ridiculous. 

[Jody_Seal]

@Dano @skierjp

it is sad that you think like that in this sport. you have no clue as to what was going on in the boat. other extenuating circumstances? was the system properly functioning? was the system calibrated correctly? was the system moved from one boat to another? Class C or L&R?

I too think that a boat Path monitor can and is a cool  gauge for an operator. however moving the system from boat to boat during the day cant be good? maybe each boat needs it;s own dedicated sure path system...

as far as a deviation rule, maybe it should not be considered unless a full pass was run at 11 and 10.75 or shorter.          my experience is that the path deviation violations were from skiers that plain screwed up, bad start, hick-up or what or want call it and made less than 4. the boat judge should be involved in the call also. was the deviation skier caused or was it truly the fault of the supplied tournament equipment and or operator?? i do feel though any time in the sport a reride is given, i think the skier should always be allowed to increase score and have a protected score to boot.. just not for world Record.

What about the poor sap that went down at 5 ball at 10.75M and Sure path dropped out at the entry gates..? who went back and looked at end course video? probably no one... scorer calls boat asking for 4 ball time.... next skier!!!

Edited August 3 by Jody_Seal

[Dano]

@Jody_Seal so you are saying skier should have to run the pass as many times as it takes to get a good boat path?  To be clear,  I wasn’t insinuating that he driver was in error or that any of the situations you described were not at play.  I was just pointing out that making the skier re ride over and over again doesn’t seem like the fair option.  

[RAWSki]

sure paths do get moved fairly regularly at events with multiple promo boats and most people involved have gotten pretty efficient with the  system set-ups and change overs. (I am sorry to hear Jody has experienced less than ideal situations). I believe judges, drivers and TCs should know if SP is working properly after a new boat and or driver 2 simulation passes?

If a system is being used at a C event it should really be for scoring convenience and driver improvement.  And seems it’s up to the CJ CD to make the call for a re ride or driver pull.  

 

[JackQ]

We need to be conscious not to focus on the exceptional situation  and ignore the vast majority.   In the last 3 years, I have attended 30+ tournaments a vast majority L or R including  a number of cash prize tournaments as a skier and or judge.  During those I believe I have observed 4-5 out of tolerance passes that resulted in a reride, and never/never a 2nd reride.  

I agree with what appears to be a majority of skiers and judges that if a boat path is out of tolerance for excessive deviation (toward the buoy) that it should result in a mandatory reride, but the skier should be allowed to improve.  

I believe that SurePath has been significant benefit to the sport.  Overall driving has improved, a number of driver that may not have been viewed as top notch has showed to be so, and a few drivers have been exposed as not up to snuff.  Additional the discussions/ rumors of driver/boat path “shenanigans“ perceived or real has almost if not entirely abated.  

Although not mandatory,  all the C tournaments I have skied/judged we have used SP, it is good training on the use of the system for judges/scorers, etc, practice for the drivers, and if nothing else eliminates the need to call in the boat times.