Petition to make L/R tournaments easier to run!

[JeffSurdej]

 

A petition has been started to request to the AWSA board to have its committees look at the following request to aid in making it easier to host L/R events.  We feel these proposals will have no sacrifice on the integrity of the sport.  Please note AWSA and not IWSF govern all these proposals.  

The reason for these proposals is the increased burden on LOC’s to host these very important events.  Times have changed and we need to re-evaluate some of the requirements needed for hosting these events.

If you want to sign these petitions please visit the links below

https://www.change.org/p/judges-and-scorers-proposals-for-2025?recruiter=881788100&recruited_by_id=1b17f4d0-6fc7-11e8-b021-a76d0e2196b0&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=petition_dashboard_share_modal&utm_medium=copylink

https://www.change.org/p/rules-proposals-for-2025?recruiter=881788100&recruited_by_id=1b17f4d0-6fc7-11e8-b021-a76d0e2196b0&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink

 

Rules Proposals for 2025

 

Proposal #1: Eliminate the need for requiring a Pan am judge at L & R events.

Rationale:  We are the only country in the Pan Am region requiring this.  We have seen no value in having this extra pan am judge at L events.  The chief judge should be well capable of handling any issue that would arise that the Pan Am official would be handling.  Pan am official rating should be used for officials aspiring to work international events, but we feel we need to remove the requirement to have a Pan am judge at L/R events hosting in the US. This was once a requirement when the AWSA and IWWF rule books deviated significantly and this is no longer the case.

Proposal #2: Reduce the # of appointed judges needed for an L & R sanction from 5 to 3. 

Rationale:  It only takes 3 judges to run the events, so why require 5 appointed?  Appointed judges’ main duty is to handle protests.  Not only do we see very little protest at local L/R events, but 3 judges can handle a protest.  Requiring more than 3 at Regionals/Nationals would be fine and that’s always going to happen as there are more than 3 appointed judges at those events.

Judges and Scorers Proposals for 2025

-Eliminate any minimum age requirements for regular and senior judge

Rationale: If the officials can pass the test and handle the duties why have an age requirement?  Many of our top elite trickers are under the age of 18 and should be allowed to be senior trick judges

-Eliminate the need to score for advancement to regular and senior judge

Rationale: Why have this, it’s a judge's rating, the scorers are there to handle the scoring.  

-Eliminate the need to be assistant chief scorer for the advancement to senior judge 

 Rationale: Same rationale as above

-Eliminate the need to work a regionals to advance to senior judge and to become senior scorer

Rationale: We feel the experience is just as good at local L/R events, requiring an official to travel to Regionals is a burden that is hindering our ability to get more officials.

-Fast Track Regular Scorer with Open Rating to Senior Scorer by testing and clinic

Rationale: We feel if they can pass the test and are open skiers the experience, they gained by attaining a regular rating is sufficient to become a senior scorer as long as they pass the test

-Reduce the total number of tournaments required to test for the next level

Test to Regular- Judge and Scorer- 6

Test to Senior- Judge and Scorer- 8

Rationale: just a simple reduction to help aid in getting more regular and senior officials.  Once again if they can pass the test do they really need that much experience to count to 6 or plot a jump?  

[Mastercrafter]

How about regular (not senior) TC being able to run L/R instead of just E? 

Is this IWWF or AWSA? 

To become senior TC, it takes 6 L/R tournaments, two regionals or nationals, two clinics, one year as regular TC, two tests,  etc etc etc just to run a backyard L.. which I am already fully capable of, and have done as an aspiring?

Tell me you want to kill the sport, without telling me you want to kill the sport. 

Its just too much. 

 

[MISkier]

Some good stuff here and long overdue.

[ETskier]

@JeffSurdej I support this initiative.  We need to be training new officials and getting them involved more quickly. We dedicated old farts are dying away. 

Terry Early

Drivers too. I know of capable drivers who drive high end skiers all the time. But having to do 10 C tournaments in a state like Florida is impossible. (4 Cs a year). Again, if they can pass the tests, let them drive.

 

 

 

[dave2ball]

@ETskier I disagree with you about the driving. Just because good drivers can pull high end skiers in practice does not mean they can do it in ELR event’s with minimum C experience. . I’m sure you know it takes a lot of time behind the wheel to gain the confidence for yourself and of the skiers. Yes it sucks here in Fla that there are not very many C events but they’re out there if you want to drive and get experience.  

[Broussard]

Quote

-Eliminate the need to score for advancement to regular and senior judge

Rationale: Why have this, it’s a judge's rating, the scorers are there to handle the scoring.  

Disagree, it is helpful as a boat judge to understand what is going on at the scoring end. Effective communication via the radio is an important part of being a boat judge.

[Broussard]

Additionally per rule 6.03 D "In areas where no Senior or Regular Scorers are available, the sponsoring club of a Class C tournament may appoint an Assistant Scorer as Chief Scorer (with the approval of the Regional Executive Vice President), under the supervision of the Chief Judge."

A Senior Judge should have a basic understanding of the scoring process.

[RobHazelwood]

3 hours ago, dave2ball said:

@ETskier I disagree with you about the driving. Just because good drivers can pull high end skiers in practice does not mean they can do it in ELR event’s with minimum C experience. . I’m sure you know it takes a lot of time behind the wheel to gain the confidence for yourself and of the skiers. Yes it sucks here in Fla that there are not very many C events but they’re out there if you want to drive and get experience.  

But this rule is very overkill at times and will stop good drivers from going through the process. Your telling me Jon Travers’s (trying to get his rating) needs to do (or a large amount I can’t quite remember) class c tournaments to be able to drive a record? He pulled me to 4@41 in a c class in March, with sure path and gate cameras… your tellling me he needs to drive 9 more c class tournaments to become confident? Now we have surepath, that will tell you if you are ready for a tournament scenario (if you look at the pass as well as the numbers) and should shorten the process massively to get more good drivers at events. 

[bkreis]

in south florida getting behind the wheel is so completive is crazy and I have been down graded for driver s rating because I don't have enough tournament rounds...yet my sure path #s are single digit, I pull guys well into 41 @ 36mph..etc...nuts!!!!

I'd love to see rules change!

[JeffSurdej]

7 hours ago, Broussard said:

Additionally per rule 6.03 D "In areas where no Senior or Regular Scorers are available, the sponsoring club of a Class C tournament may appoint an Assistant Scorer as Chief Scorer (with the approval of the Regional Executive Vice President), under the supervision of the Chief Judge."

A Senior Judge should have a basic understanding of the scoring process.

Perhaps a judge should have a basic understanding of scoring but do they really need to score 3 tournaments and be assistant chief scorer twice.

Also to your argument, I would say scorers should have to have a basic understanding of judging but we don't require them to judge to become a scorer, at least I don't think we do?

[paul]

My 2 cents:

the recent changes for jump make it even harder to hold an L without having a man made lake with a fixed course. While I get and agree with having the 15/19PG why are they mandatory? Why is BPMS (SurePath) mandatory for L tournaments when it was only mandatory for World Championships last year. And there isn’t even any reride criteria? BPMS doesn’t work on floating courses.

these two changes should be recommended but optional as we are otherwise shrinking our small sport to even less locations.

can these be added to the petition??

 

[PSM]

@JeffSurdej Good list.  Another big one for me is that currently the Chief Judge at L/R tournaments cannot drive. 

I get it for Championship events, but for your standard backyard L, that really ties our hands when you need drivers. 

Your ACJ can handle anything while you are in the boat.  Allow the delegation.

[JeffSurdej]

37 minutes ago, paul said:

My 2 cents:

the recent changes for jump make it even harder to hold an L without having a man made lake with a fixed course. While I get and agree with having the 15/19PG why are they mandatory? Why is BPMS (SurePath) mandatory for L tournaments when it was only mandatory for World Championships last year. And there isn’t even any reride criteria? BPMS doesn’t work on floating courses.

these two changes should be recommended but optional as we are otherwise shrinking our small sport to even less locations.

can these be added to the petition??

 

Are you sure the 15/19PG are mandatory?

5 minutes ago, JeffSurdej said:

Are you sure the 15/19PG are mandatory?

Guess ur right but looks like you can get around it....

Pre-Gate boat guide buoys are required unless the Chief Judge with the concurrence of the Homologator determine that pre-gate buoys are not feasible, in which case, the Homologator shall note such in the homologation dossier

[JackQ]

@JeffSurdej I agree with much of your proposals, but concur with @Broussardthat Judges particular Seniors and the CJ need a working understanding of scoring, I dont think scoring three time is too much of and imposition but requiring being assistant scorer maybe overkill.  For Driving I agree 10 may be excessive, and yes there are some great drivers (ala JT) that do not need the experience but the is the exception. @ETskier I count 18 C tournaments in Florida this year, we have three C and one L in Jacksonville alone.  I respect requiring a PanAm Judge (which I am) for L/R, if the trend to reduce/remove the differences with IWSF rulebook would lessen the utility of the requirement.  Another simplification would be doing away with E, just C, L, R. 

[Broussard]

@JeffSurdej 

Score three tournaments? Yes

Serve as Assistant Chief Scorer? Probably not necessary 

[Horton]

I lost my regular driver rating this spring because I couldn't find a clinic. I give up.

[MISkier]

3 minutes ago, Horton said:

I lost my regular driver rating this spring because I couldn't find a clinic. I give up.

I believe they have been holding online Zoom or GoToMeeting versions (like in February) to cover that.  I didn't need one this year, so I didn't pay attention to whether we had them or not.

[Mastercrafter]

6 minutes ago, Horton said:

I lost my regular driver rating this spring because I couldn't find a clinic. I give up.

This pretty much sums it up...

[dave2ball]

@RobHazelwood this comment was not directed to drivers that pull ski school or other pros. They have more seat time than 90% of us together.  Could the driver rating be streamed lined, sure. But as you know it takes skill to hop into a boat that you are not familiar with and pull someone into 38 or shorter and in with good sure path numbers 

[RobHazelwood]

@dave2ball I understand that however how do we get the drivers with the most seat time in the world and that drive through 39s and 41s every day of the week in the boat for tournaments... in my eyes not by making them sit through 10 class c tournaments which seems fairly impossible to find. I know its not simple but the path for quality drivers to get their rating needs to be more streamlined to make them want to go through the process of actually doing it

[Broussard]

@RobHazelwood There are 6 Class C tournaments a year at Travers

[dave2ball]

@RobHazelwood

First You really need to look  outside of Florida, there are more C’s the ELR events across the country . Majority  of regions don’t have many 39 off  above skiers. Other than Florida no other place skis year round which gives drivers down here a big advantage. 
2nd majority of tournaments are pulled at ski schools. They have their drivers already in place. Very unlikely a driver needing time behind the wheel will get it.

if you put your time in as a regular driver and pull the required events take the feedback for improvement when eligible to become a SR driver to pull these RLR event the person will be ready.   Also the person who is hungry to make the move will be very pushy to get in the seat as much as possible.    

[RobHazelwood]

54 minutes ago, Broussard said:

@RobHazelwood There are 6 Class C tournaments a year at Travers

Put on by them to get Jon and Chris their rating. They are class c events with gates, surepath and pretty much worlds level homologation

[dave2ball]

@RobHazelwood they are part of the school. The average person could not drive there in a tournament.     

[JackQ]

An accelerate certification for Open skier to Reg and Senior driver similar for Judges may make sense. 

[dave2ball]

@JackQ that is a great way.  

[RobHazelwood]

5 minutes ago, dave2ball said:

@RobHazelwood they are part of the school. The average person could not drive there in a tournament.     

Now i’m lost, I’m saying I’m quite sure they wouldn’t have those class c tournaments on without the desire for JT and Chris to get their drivers rating so they can pull tournaments. Why would they not just have a record event when they have the setup to make it so and use it all even for the class c

4 minutes ago, JackQ said:

An accelerate certification for Open skier to Reg and Senior driver similar for Judges may make sense. 

Is there not already an acceleration but I believe it’s still quite long

P.s we have the same issue in England. A very long and slow road to get to be a record level driver no matter your level

Edited July 26 by RobHazelwood

[dave2ball]

@RobHazelwood what I am trying to say is in order to have JT and Chris be rated driver they need to have C events.  For insurance issues they are able to drive at their site. The average person who walks off the street needing seat time will not be able or not allowed to drive there.

[JackQ]

@RobHazelwood I believe the “fast track” program for Drivers that are “Open or MasterMens/Womens) only applies to Assistant and Regular not attaining Senior driver. Included in the accelerated process, the tournament requirement for regular driver is reduced from 10 to 5. 

[unksskis]

“We need more drivers to put on tournaments and not burn current drivers out, maybe consider making it easier to achieve and advance”

”No, we need people who are “hungry” to volunteer their time and pull people skiing, have to earn your way into this volunteer role”

Continue to scoff off suggestions, continue to watch the current status quo flush things down the toilet, tournament skiing will continue its downward spiral. 

[RAWSki]

@JeffSurdej one of the things I have seen is the toll taken at a 3 event ELR when the scoring of tricks is needed.  while also keeping lakes busy because of the number of officials required. Typically 4?  
 

I have asked why we can’t try to score tricks with 2 officials on site and 2 working remotely  via zoom or teams?.  Tricks are judged on a video screen anyway. And records are always verified by email too.   This can reduce the number of officials needed on site and their time commitment could be just a couple hrs a day. Vs a weekend. 

[RichardDoane]

@Horton  you haven’t lost your driver rating, it will come back as soon as you attend a clinic. Give me $1. and I’ll sanction a driver clinic at Imperial just for you that weekend. We could do it after Friday’s T/B. There will be plenty of Senior Drivers there that weekend. 

@Broussard  helping score an event makes you an Asst. Chief Scorer IMO.   Senior Judges do need a working knowledge of how scoring works now that it integrates with Sure Path. Senior Drivers as well. 
 

@JeffSurdej  I’m all for streamlining anything that helps events function, and keeps our volunteer labor pool intact and growing. Thank you for supporting improvements  to our system. 

[bkreis]

@RichardDoaneI lost my rating and have the clinic due to lack of tournmanet  driving..getting in the deat is next to impossible in South Florida...to the point of me skipping alot of tournaments this year..brando Caruso skied with me a bunch this spring and you saw how he did in Europe...pretty constant 3@41s.. with sure path in miami...there should be some consideration somehow, some way!!

@JeffSurdejJeff

[Horton]

@RichardDoane is that the same weekend as the cash prize?

[RichardDoane]

No. October 11/12/13. 

@bkreis  no one should lose a rating due to lack of driving in tournaments. Driver’s should be able to submit some kind of worksheet showing their record. Do you have a Sure Path PIN for logging on in the boat ?  All those numbers go somewhere that should be used for maintenance purposes. 

[unksskis]

Obviously it’s very clear on how to keep drivers ratings. So thankful our EVP’s are focused on more important items. 

[Broussard]

@unksskis Come to the regional meeting next year and we can nominate ya

[JackQ]

@RichardDoane, Not sure how having a log with SurePath would be reviewed/policed.  Was the skier at 15 or 39, are they just a subset of the best the driver did, etc.  My fear is a repeat of what I experience a few years ago at a R where the driver (that I know well) said that he hasn’t pulled a skier in practice in a few years and he only drives in 2 to 3 tournaments a year to keep his rating.  This was going to be his 1st time in a boat in almost a year.  I asked him how well would he expect me to ski if I haven’t practiced in 6 months, he said not well.  I retorted, then isn’t the same for a driver?  

A different mind set;  was that of Phil Adam’s when I lived in San Diego, he would make effort to routinely come out when I (and Scott Larson) skied so he could drive. His comments, if I am not pulling skiers at 38 and 39 regularly, I have no business driving in a tournament.  

[Broussard]

Quote

 I asked him how well would he expect me to ski if I haven’t practiced in 6 months, he said not well.  I retorted, then isn’t the same for a driver?  

Bingo. It is even worse for jumping. A lot of senior jump drivers only drive jump in tournaments. If you aren't in the boat on a regular basis you shouldn't be driving in a Class L event.

[unksskis]

17 minutes ago, Broussard said:

Bingo. It is even worse for jumping. A lot of senior jump drivers only drive jump in tournaments. If you aren't in the boat on a regular basis you shouldn't be driving in a Class L event.

He said it before I did.  Everyone seems to resort to slalom and 41’ off, yet these same people never pull an above average jumper but somehow can in a major tournament. 

[Mastercrafter]

Furious rant. Sorry, but not sorry.  Truth hurts.  

I’m giving up. Seriously.

This process is just too ridiculous.

This spring I started down the path of becoming a TC because technology, video, and numbers are right up my alley. There is a serious need here in Michigan and I thought it would be a good way to contribute to the sport.  L/R tournaments are rare here, but we have a lot of world class sites capable of great tournaments and big scores. We also have an amazing group of skiers and officials who I’m proud to be a part of.

I started with Swiss Pro 2024, helped as much as I could, asked a lot of questions. Lots of phone calls and emails to various TCs later, I acquired all the technology and equipment needed to run an L tournament. I an indeed thankful to those who gave me their time and shared their wisdom.

Including Surepath, I now have about $3-4 thousand dollars invested. Whatever. “For the love of the sport”, right? Im thankful that I can afford it. There’s probably worse things to spend money on. 

In June we put on an L at my home site. I had everything turn-key and ready to go.  Course surveyed. Ropes measured.  Homologation dossier filled out.  Wireless HD boat video, gate cameras, end course video.  DVR, TV, two laptops with Video Gates and Video Boat Judge.  Table, tent, chairs. The works. We had to fly in an actual TC, who we were  of course thankful for, but that cost us hundreds of dollars and with all due respect, he didn’t do a whole lot because I already did it all. 

I spent tons of time away from my wife and two young girls, and tons of money. What do I get? Two blown openers, a crappy third round score, an angry wife, exhaustion… it’s not fun.  I also got a $4000 scratch on my truck from headlight to taillight because I was hurriedly driving to the lake to get cameras mount posts dug in before a ski ride, hit a fence post..so I could hurry up after skiing and get home to get my girls in bed. 

This weekend I brought most the technology needed for the L portion of our State Championships. I had a bit more help for which I am thankful.. but still. Three trips to the lake/6 hours of driving, wife is sick at home trying to manage a 2 and 4 year old. I’m lucky I’m not divorced. Worked my ass off, everything ran flawlessly, ANOTHER blown opener.. it’s not fun. It’s not frikin fun anymore. 

So now I’ve worked three L/R tournaments. If I want to be a regular TC, I still need to attend a regionals or nationals, attend a clinic, and take a test. That means more money, more shirty scores, and most importantly, more time away from my beautiful family. 
 

And THEN if I actually want to TC an L/R, I need to be a regular TC for a year, THEN do it all again.  Another 3 tournaments, another trip to regionals or nationals, another clinic, test, and days away from those who I love most.

Fuuuck that noise. Not going to happen. I don’t even ski L tournaments.  I don’t even care. I don’t even fuckinggg care. 

We are a single income household with two amazing children and I have a wife that loves the three of us more than I can put into words. I’m not going to put them out any more. They don’t deserve this, and I can’t afford this. I can barely afford groceries and health insurance. 

So, I quit. Im done.

I love waterskiing, I love the people I’ve met and the friends I’ve made, I love the thrill, I love the challenge, but I love my family more. 

Every time I talk to a TC I usually hear something like “Im glad you’re going down this path, we’re all getting old” or “my wife is pissed at me”

Yeah, no shit. I wonder why. Geeze. 

If someone wants to fast track me to Senior TC, I’d be very grateful.  If not, that’s fine. I’m happy to sell all my equipment for a discount  price of $1500 and you can hop on the struggle bus and let this sport tear apart your family. 

Godspeed, if you dare. 

I want to thank Bob Harris, David Skirvin, Rodger Logan, Bill Murbach, and Jeff Smith for helping me along way.  Truly stellar and dedicated individuals. Jeff Surdej was also willing to host me at midwest regionals— thank you Jeff.

Rant over.

For your viewing pleasure, here’s my setup at two different lakes as well as the two true joys of my life. Not going to let tournaments get between me and them anymore .

 

 

 

[MISkier]

@Mastercrafter, I understand your frustration.  I and many others were certainly impressed with the skill and commitment you demonstrated.  Your technical setup was excellent at the tournaments I attended.  Thank you for everything you did.  My only wish for you is for the correct life balance for you and that fun returns to water skiing for you.  

Edited July 28 by MISkier

[jhughes]

I don't understand how anyone gets rated for anything particularly if there are few or no tournaments in the area.

[Triplett]

@Mastercrafter, your tech set ups, from my perspective, rival pro events, amazing stuff.  As @MISkier said, I hope you can find the balance and find the fun.  

Tech Controller is the hardest thing for us in Michigan to host a L/R and by far the hardest to get.  For example, the L slalom event mentioned above, we had 3 PanAm judges on site but we had to fly in a TC.  

If we can find a way to make TC a simpler path while maintaining integrity of the competition I am all for it. 

[JackQ]

I concur with all on TC’s hardest to attain and scarcest of all officials.  Collectively we need a way to simplify and spread the cost of the investment need to execute a TC’s role.  

[unksskis]

“Fuuuck that noise” is the best way to sum up recent tournament skiing these days.  Thank you for efforts, dedication, and commitment! 

[Mastercrafter]

24 minutes ago, JackQ said:

I concur with all on TC’s hardest to attain and scarcest of all officials.  Collectively we need a way to simplify and spread the cost of the investment need to execute a TC’s role.  

A respected skier and friend said I could get a masters degree before becoming a TC. I dropped out of college so I guess giving up on TC is just par for the course for me. 
 

But seriously, why is it a multiple year, hundreds of hours endeavor just to do some stuff an average high schooler could figure out? 
 

like I said before, tell me you want to kill the sport, without telling me you want to kill the sport. 

[skierjp]

@HortonYou lost your drivers rating because you couldn’t find a clinic?  The last 3 or 4 clinics I’ve been involved with were all online. 

[Horton]

@skierjp I have not even looked for the last few months but the 60 days or so before my rating expired there was not an online clinic available. So yes I fell asleep in the job and missed clinics this fall. It is my fault for not paying attention but does it have to be this hard?

[JackQ]

OK, Ready to be banned.  But you know four years out when you need the next clinic, plenty of time.  No reason not to do it a year ahead, doesn’t seem that hard.