Zero Off Issue - No Speed

[stevezie]

Hoping the group can provide some help diagnosing a Zero-Off issue on a 2014 Mastercraft with two puck system.

Problem became apparent when I could not change the speed on the ZO screen.  It was just stuck on the speed shown.  Touch screen works fine, setting just wasn't responsive on the buttons or screen.  I could still change any of the other settings (event type, pull type, etc).  Everything except the speed.  Was pulling kids so I decided to hand drive and realized, I have no speed at all.  Speedometer just reads zero.  Dug deeper and found that I have no satellites (it's been running about 9 satellites).  On the 3-event diagnostic screen I found a message that reads "ZO did not initialize.  Try restarting system".  On the PDM Diagnostics screen, it shows the GPS system as a red dot indicating "Open Circuit".  

I did try cycling that master power several times with no change.  

Is this a puck issue, a head unit issue or a connection issue?  The screen itself was replaced last summer and has about 20 hours on it.  Any suggestions or advice on diagnosing the problem, or fixing it, is much appreciated.  

[LeonL]

Since you have 0 satellites my first guess would be a puck problem. 

[stevezie]

3 minutes ago, LeonL said:

Since you have 0 satellites my first guess would be a puck problem. 

That was my initial thought until I saw the ZO failed to initialize message. Wasn’t sure if that indicated a different problem. 

Any test that can be performed to to confirm if it’s a pick issue? The old gauge based system has a puck diagnostic that will specifically tell you if they are working. 

[stevezie]

Appears to be the exact same issue as this thread.

 

[jpwhit]

The problem can be anything that keeps the screen from being able to communicate with the ZO display-less head unit mounted in the kick panel under the dash via the CANBUS. Are you getting water temp and depth readings? If not, try unplugging the AirMar depth and water temp biducer which is right in front of the engine. When the AirMar sensors fail, sometimes they disrupt the CANBUS. 

[stevezie]

I am getting everything except mph, I cannot adjust speed, I have zero satellites, and I do not have a serial number or software version. I have depth, temps, and hours. I did disconnect the connection for the depth finder and it did not make a difference. I have checked connections and didn’t find anything. No change at all. It’s been consistent since it stopped working. 
 

Debating if I buy a head unit or a new puck. Leaning toward a head unit based on the error message and I don’t have a serial number or software version. 
 

I would appreciate guidance on any additional diagnoses I can perform or suggestions on how to proceed. 

[jpwhit]

The next thing I would do is to remove the Zero Off head unit from the kick panel and open it up to check for water intrusion or other obvious damage to the circuit board such as burn marks or corrosion. 

The fact that you have engine hours proves the screen can talk to the engine ECM, which means the CanBus is functioning. So, it's pointing to the ZO head unit isn't functioning. And since you have the older dual pucks, they connect directly to the ZO head unit and not the CanBus like the newer single puck. The Orange/Red indicator for the GPS in the PDM Diagnostic screen is expected in the configuration of your boat, because that a "CanBus Communications" status so the GPS in that list is showing the status of a GPS module on the CanBus, which your boat doesn't have. 

Also, if you want to mail me the ZO head unit, I can test if for you. 

[stevezie]

10 hours ago, jpwhit said:

The next thing I would do is to remove the Zero Off head unit from the kick panel and open it up to check for water intrusion or other obvious damage to the circuit board such as burn marks or corrosion. 

The fact that you have engine hours proves the screen can talk to the engine ECM, which means the CanBus is functioning. So, it's pointing to the ZO head unit isn't functioning. And since you have the older dual pucks, they connect directly to the ZO head unit and not the CanBus like the newer single puck. The Orange/Red indicator for the GPS in the PDM Diagnostic screen is expected in the configuration of your boat, because that a "CanBus Communications" status so the GPS in that list is showing the status of a GPS module on the CanBus, which your boat doesn't have. 

Also, if you want to mail me the ZO head unit, I can test if for you. 

I just want to confirm I understand correctly, the red indicator by "GPS" is normal and effectively irrelevant because of the standard configuration of the electronics.  

I'll take you up on that offer to test my current unit.  Will send you a private message.  

[jpwhit]

13 hours ago, stevezie said:

I just want to confirm I understand correctly, the red indicator by "GPS" is normal and effectively irrelevant because of the standard configuration of the electronics.  

Yes, I think that's correct. 

[stevezie]

Spoke with multiple dealers and got different answers.  One dealer suspected it was the antenna.  A different dealer suspected it was the head unit (3E Black Box).  Both suggested it was best to speak with Zero Off.  

I left a voicemail on the Zero Off technical support line (it goes straight to voicemail).  A representative returned my call a few hours later.  Based on everything I shared with him, he was very confident that the antenna is the problem.  Key indicators to him were that I consistently have engine hours and RPM.  He did suggest that I put speed control into RPM mode to confirm.  However, I looked through the interface and didn't a way to put it into RPM mode.  Perhaps it's imbedded in a submenu and I've missed it.

I'm guessing most on here know the following details, which have been included in several other threads already, but I'm including them here for people diagnosing problems in the future.  First, only one antenna works at a time on a dual antenna system.  The second one acts as a back up.  Therefore, it's only necessary to replace one and the back up is optional.  When new, the antennas are loaded with the current satellite mapping.  Over time, this map changes and the antenna no longer knows where to find the satellites, which is why the older your antenna(s) get, the fewer satellites they will pick up.  Most GPS based guidance systems update the mapping via software updates but Zero Off doesn't have that functionality.  I was running 10-7 satellites, and was typically at 9.  He explained that 9 satellites was low enough to cause problems such as surging but I never noticed anything unusual up to the point the system failed.  If this is the cause of the failure, I find it odd the system abruptly went from working all the time to not working at all.  The new antenna from Zero Off (listed on the their website) is plug and play.  No need to update software.  He did suggest that it is preferable to connect it to GPS 1, which can be identified by a solid orange wire.  GPS 2 has an orange wire with a white stripe.  

He clarified that the head unit (3E Black Box) is effectively just a sensor with a gyro and accelerometer and would not prevent the system from "initializing" or locking onto satellites.  This conflicts with the information in the thread I attached earlier with the exact problem I'm having and was corrected by replacing the head unit.  I've taken up jpwhit on his generous offer to test my head unit so I'll confirm it's condition regardless.  

[Mastercrafter]

I think your Zero Off support guy is a doofus. There is no RPM mode with ZO, at least not in a current Prostar. If you're not getting software version etc, it's the head unit, or connection to the head unit.  

 

I just saw your PM reply and I'll get that head unit sent for a test tomorrow. 

 

 

[Sethro]

I could have sworn one could navigate to Recreation Mode and choose to hold a set RPM choice.  This is with an actual Zero Off display, not an integrated display with one of the manufacturers.  

[Mastercrafter]

.... and the head unit is not just a accelerometer.. it's the whole ZO computer, software, algorithms.. 

 

 

[stevezie]

17 minutes ago, Sethro said:

I could have sworn one could navigate to Recreation Mode and choose to hold a set RPM choice.  This is with an actual Zero Off display, not an integrated display with one of the manufacturers.  

Yes, it can be done with the standard round Zero Off gauge.  The Mastercraft display interface doesn't have that functionality.

17 minutes ago, Mastercrafter said:

.... and the head unit is not just a accelerometer.. it's the whole ZO computer, software, algorithms.. 

 

 

I appreciate the corrections.  Definitely helpful and will help others in the future.  

[jpwhit]

The support process for Zero Off issues seems to be screwed up. This isn't the first time I've run into this. I "think" that MasterCraft should be providing the support and shouldn't be sending you to Zero Off directly. Especially when the only interface to ZO is via the boat's display screen. 

The reason I think this, is the ZO guy that called you back doesn't know anything about how the screen in the boat works. He only knows about the ZO 3E head unit and about the display and keypad interface on the ZO head units. But in this case the display and keypad aren't included in the black box version MasterCraft installed in the boat. 

Btw, if you open up that black box, the connectors are on the PCB for the keypad and display. If you plug in a keypad and display from another ZO unit, they work. I've done it. That's actually part of how I'll test the ZO 3E head unit you're sending me. I also have a full set of boat electronics components on a workbench all wired up that I use for testing and experimenting.  

The screen and the more importantly the software on the screen were created by MasterCraft and it talks to the ZO 3E head unit via CanBus messages. It may be true that MasterCraft sub-contracts the creation of the software that runs on the screen instead of developing it directly themselves, and they may even sub-contract that software development to Ennovation Controls, but even if that's the case it's a completely different part of Ennovation Controls than the group that builds and supports the ZO 3E head unit. 

Much of the info that the ZO guy told you is only accurate if you were looking at the ZO gauge's native interface. For example, if you had RPM shown there, then what he's saying makes sense. But having RPM shown on the 7" display doesn't prove anything about the ZO 3E unit's health. But again, that's part of the boat's overall system that he has little knowledge of. 

Also, his info about the satellites and GPS puck is somewhat off base as well based on my reading of the technical documentation directly form Garmin on those pucks as well as my use of those same pucks in other applications. I do know why he thinks that, but it's not really accurate info.

[jpwhit]

UPS dropped off your ZO 3E Black Box yesterday evening and I just finished testing it. Short answer is it appear to work fine. Here's a video, sorry about the contrast it's really hard to read anything on the screen. 

In case you can't make out everything in the video, I connected it to a test screen, and I can change speeds in the main Zero Off screen. In the diagnostics screen it shows the serial number and software version and the errors for not having pucks connected. 

So, then I went ahead and connected 2 pucks. And that works too. 

 

Only getting 8 satellites, but that's actually more than I expected given I'm inside my basement. 

I still don't think you have a GPS puck failure causing your issue. Because with my screen and wiring it connected to the ZO 3E Black Box and displayed serial number and software version when there were no GPS pucks connected. And I don't think it can be the HV700 screen either, because it sounds like you getting data from the engine ECM via the CanBus interface on the screen. So that really just leaves a wiring / connector issue between the screen and the ZO 3E Black Box. Either that or your ZO 3E Black Box is intermittent. 

 

 

[stevezie]

Ugh..... Not what I wanted to hear.  The problem wasn't intermittent for me.  It was working Sunday morning and stopped functioning at the end of our set.  I tried it multiple times throughout the day on Sunday while doing some trouble shooting but had consistent results.  No satellites and no speed.  I tested again the next morning before packing it up and had the same result so I would be surprised if there is an intermittent problem with the box.  

Regarding the puck, I have a new one coming from Zero Off, so I will be able to put that to rest.  For anyone who needs one in the future, don't let the 6 week lead time they note on their site scare you off.

You of course have a much better understanding of how these systems function.  I'm having a hard time understanding how it could be between the screen, which only acts as a display and interface, and the black box.  If that was the case, I would expect the system would have kicked in an managed speed, the display just wouldn't have shown it.  I'm wondering if there isn't some type of power supply issue to the black box that's not enabling it to power up.

I did get Zero Off to give me the pin out that they claim would plug into the Black Box.  I'm not convinced they would have the pin out though and suspect this is what would plug into the back of a Zero Off gauge.  It would be great if someone has a complete wiring diagram.  

Thanks again for your time and efforts to try and resolve this.  Please ship the black box back to me as soon as you can.  Please use two day shipping (summer is short in Wisconsin).  Let me know what the cost is and I'll take care of it.  

ZOPinout.bmp

Got the multimeter out and confirmed 12v going to the black box hook up so my theory is wrong. Also looks likes the pin out zero off provided doesn’t match up…

[jpwhit]

That is the correct pinout for Zero Off. But the numbering of the pins in the connector may not be what you expect. Here's the pinout for the connectors on the back of the HV700 display. The black connector on the HV700 display turns out to be the same connector that's on the ZO 3E Black Box. Use this as a reference for the pin numbering, but keep in mind this is showing the connector as if you're looking at the back of the connector on the HV700 or ZO 3E Black Box. So, if you're checking the plug on the wiring harness you have to think about how that lines up with these pin numbers (mirrored). 

The other reason I posted this is because you should use your meter to check the continuity for the Can High and Low signals between the plug for the black connector on the back of the HV700 and the plug for the ZO 3E Black Box. 

Pin 5 (Can Low) in the plug for the HV700 should have continuity to Pin 10 on the ZO 3E Black Box plug. And Pin 6 (Can High) in the plug for the HV700 should have continuity to Pin 9 in the ZO 3E Black Box plug. Also check the ground between them, Pin 8 in the plug for the HV700 should have continuity to Pin 23 in the ZO 3E Black Box plug. And as I think you were already trying to test, make sure you're getting 12V to pins 8 and 15 in the ZO 3E Black Box plug.

 

[stevezie]

I have doubled checked and have good continuity at all of the locations you mentioned.  Voltage checked out at 12.1V, which matches the voltage the display is reading on the battery.  It's down a bit from me messing with it throughout the weekend.  This battery doesn't seem to hold voltage that well though and does drop below 9V starting up so I'm going to replace it.  Going to hold on to the old one for now for testing and troubleshooting purposes and drop it off for the core charge later.  

[jpwhit]

With the battery all the way in the back of the ProStar, it's pretty normal for the voltage to drop a lot during cranking. The cables from the back of the boat up to the front are fairly long so they drop a lot of voltage under the heavy load of starting. 

[stevezie]

Trouble shooting has been ongoing and I believe the problem is resolved.  Coming back to document what I've done and found for those that may have similar issues in the future.  

I shipped my 3E Black Box to jpwhit for testing on his set up.  Connected to his test system, everything started up normally.  It was tested with and without the pucks connected.  Without the pucks connected, the system started up and showed an error message indicating pucks were not functioning.  However, it still showed a serial number and software version, which I did not have.  This indicated it was not a problem with the pucks.  To further troubleshoot, a standard Zero Off display was added and the system was tested again.  Everything functioned normally with the ZO display mirroring the Mastercraft display.  Speed and pull type could be changed on either the Mastercraft display or the ZO display with the other immediately reflecting the change.  The Black Box was sent back to me with the display for testing on my boat.  Adding the display was plug and play once the Black Box cover was off.

While the box was away for testing, I performed testing on the wiring using a multimeter.  Nothing indicated there was a problem.

• Checked the voltage across the hot connection and ground connection on the Black Box plug (pins 8 to 15) - Found 12.1V.
• Confirmed pin 5 (Can Low) in the plug for the HV700 has continuity to Pin 10 on the ZO 3E Black Box plug.
• Confirmed pin 6 (Can High) in the plug for the HV700 has continuity to Pin 9 in the ZO 3E Black Box plug. 
• Checked the ground between pin 8 in the plug for the HV700 and pin 23 in the ZO 3E Black Box plug.

When I hooked up the Black Box to my boat and booted the system up, I had the same problem.  No satellites, I could not change the speed setting, and had an error message reading "ZO did not initialize.  Restart the system".  The ZO display on the Black Box was lit up, but it was completely blank with no text at all.  I had bought a new battery incase there was some type of issue with the battery.  I switched in the new battery and restarted the system and the problem seemed to be resolved.  It had secured satellites and I could change the speed.  However, the 3 Event Diagnostic screen now displayed an error reading "Senor supply voltage 1 low".  Checking the PDM Diagnostics screen, the GPS dot was now green indicating a good circuit (it was red previously).  I also noticed the system was very laggy to inputs.  Changes were very slow to be reflected on the screen.  I shut the system down again and restarted a third time, and the original was problem was back.  No satellites, I could not change the speed setting, and had an error message reading "ZO did not initialize.  Restart the system", and GPS dot was red again on PDM Diagnostics. 

The problem was expected to with be power supply to the Black Box and possibly a bad connection.  To further test the voltage, I inserted sewing along the wire in the back of the Black Box plug one the hot wire and ground wire.  I pushed the needles in roughly 5 mm until they bottomed onto a hard surface.  Checked the voltage across them and had 0.3V.  If you're doing this, be very careful not to accidently short the circuit.  I pushed both the needles harder into the plug and rechecked (I didn't notice any further movement).  I found that voltage was now bouncing from ~12V to ~8V.  After an additional adjustment of the needles I was now getting a constant +12V.  I restarted the system and everything was functioning normally.  The ZO display on the Black Box was also now displaying text.  The low voltage warning was gone as well.  

This indicated there was a problem at the connection in the plug.  I disassembled plug by first removing the red retainer.  There are black retaining clips on both ends of the red retainer.  Use a small screwdriver to spread them open.  You need to pry open a bit further than you would expect.  Some outward pressure at the same time was needed for me.  I had one screwdriver at the base of the red retainer between the base of the plug and retainer to lightly pry up while I used a separate screwdriver to pry open the black retaining clips.  It's a multi stage release so it will come off about half way at first.  Then you'll need to repeat the process to get it completely off.  Once the red retainer is off, you can see the clips retaining the individual pins.  There is a clip on each side of the pin.  If you pry open one side and pull the wire at the same time, you can pull the individual pin completely out of the plug to inspect the crimp.  I pulled both the ground wire pin and the hot wire pins.  Nothing looked unusual so I cleaned them with contact cleaner, recrimped them, and pushed them back in.  Make sure they are pushed in all the way and click into place.  A common failure is for an individual pin to be pushed into the plug preventing it from making good contact with the mating pin.

At this point, everything is working normally.  It's suspected that I reseated one of the pins while firmly pushing the sewing needles in to test the voltage.  I had visually inspected the plug several times and none of the pins appeared to be out of place or deeper than the others.  Just because the plug and connections look good, doesn't confirm they are apparently.  Also, note that the first time I start up the system after physically connecting the Black Box, the GPS circuit would show red and it would have zero satellites for roughly 10 seconds, before everything turned green.  Does not seem have this delay on subsequent reboots.  Generally speaking, if you're getting a "ZO did not initialize" error, it means for some reason your black box has not booted up for some reason.  

I greatly appreciate the support of everyone that contributed to this thread.  Hopefully this helps someone else in the future.

[jpwhit]

Glad you got it all sorted and it's working now. 

[stevezie]

Just hoping it continues to work.  I wont be surprised that connection continues to be finicky.