Is the Pro Tour broken?

[Jordan]

While I understand that the prize money available often doesn't make the travel viable for many skiers, is the the concept of "The Pro Tour" getting damaged by the number of very talented skiers who opt out of large portions of the Tour stops?

Watching the San Gervasio Pro Am, I noticed that Nate wasn't there. Neither was Howley, That's two former world champions who don't seem to compete as much anymore. On the Women's side,  two more former world champs, Regina and Whitney aren't there. Manon was there, but doesn't ski very much in the US any more.

Other skiers who compete intermittantly also include Adam Caldwell and Vanessa Vieke.

So, is this just a reality due to the economics, or could something be done to improve attendence? Could sponsorship be found for a Fedex Cup type format that rewarded attendance financially?

Discuss...

[rockdog]

12 minutes ago, Jordan said:

So, is this just a reality due to the economics,

Yes, yes and yes.

Most if not all of those people you mention are working.

12 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Could sponsorship be found for a Fedex Cup type format that rewarded attendance financially?

@Jordan I feel like you're a little late to this party, this is the issue that the sport has been battling for decades. If there was an easy answer we'd be doing it.

[Drago]

4 minutes ago, rockdog said:

@Jordan I feel like you're a little late to this party, this is the issue that the sport has been battling for decades. If there was an easy answer we'd be doing it.

[Stevie Boy]

Somebody who has a regular well paid job, has a two week holiday, which includes Accommodation / Flights / Transport / Food.
Equals Thousands of Dollars.

Add Ski Sets Cost.

Travel around Europe for 4 - 6 weeks to facilitate the Pro Tour, it doesn't make sense to fly in an out for each event, if you want to perform your best, it all adds up to.
Loads Of Dosh!

[BraceMaker]

@Stevie Boy sounds like what the European/South American/Aussie pros have been doing for years and years.

To the point of the thread is the pro tour broken implies that to be fixed it must return to a US centric tour to accommodate a handful of US based skiers who won't travel.  Potentially the pro tour is healthier now than its been in 25 years.

[Cooleo15]

Speaking as someone who has a full time job and competes on the pro tour everything mentioned above is correct. But other factors also play a role. Like for me a lot of it is vacation days from work. I work remotely, but I have to be actively responding to emails and teams messages from 8-5 and have several meetings each day. I was only able to attend a section of the European tour this year because I received an extra week of vacation from work for being at the company for 5 years. I actually could probably have stayed through Spain but I had a wedding I was the best man in. So I had to come back for it. Then at that point the financials of flying back to Europe for 1 stop in England didn't make sense. I am hopeful I can stay for the whole European leg next year since I don't have to take 3 vacation days to compete in the Masters qualifiers and won't have a wedding to attend.

[jhughes]

I feel like we are super lucky that anybody does this at a pro level and drives the top end of the sport, usually at their own expense and sacrifice. Also thankful for TWBC and anyone doing the insane amount of work to host and TC tournaments. We are lucky to have any of it. 

[DaveD]

If there was any real money in this sport attendance at each tournament would be better, but it would never be 100%.  Look at the PGA tour.  The top golfers don't make it to every tournament.  

[jjackkrash]

I expect to see all (or at least most) of the big dogs at a few select big/special tournaments.  Otherwise, I expect to see whoever shows up at regular tour stops.  I personally don't see current tour stop attendance as some kind of an existential problem.  There are some great skiers that show up at every one, even if it's not all of them.

[lefty]

Some NBA players who make many many millions don’t play every match under the guise of “load management “.  That I would consider broken 

[lkb]

28 minutes ago, DaveD said:

If there was any real money in this sport attendance at each tournament would be better, but it would never be 100%.  Look at the PGA tour.  The top golfers don't make it to every tournament.  

If there was any attendance in this sport there would be real money at each tournament but it would never be 100% (like other sports.)

[Broussard]

In recent history there was incentive to attend pro events to collect Elite Points which could earn you an elusive ticket to the Masters... 

[BraceMaker]

@Broussard isn't the pro tour top 6 events?

Of them only 4 or 5 are east of the ocean.

[Stevie Boy]

@BraceMaker I do think the water ski community in Europe, do what they can to offer accommodation, quite a few people are friends with Pro Skiers, also quite a few of the Pro Skiers Originate from Europe and other countries but reside in the US , Travel is still expensive, but there is also family commitments, fitness and injury to consider, but typically Moomba did not see the normal attendance, purely down to the cost of travelling for two rounds of slalom, I would think that apart from sponsorship requirements, it would be smart to pick the events, that potentially would bring the best rewards, whether that be Kudos, Money or Points .

The Pro Tour is not Broken, Skier are just more selective as somebody has pointed out, TWBC are outstanding with there presentations of the sport, they also make sacrifices and travel around the Pro Tour.

@Jordan , don't knock it the Pro Skiers and TWBC do a fantastic job,  Just Look at the Scores they are phenomenal both the Women and the Men are pushing the boundaries like never before,

[Broussard]

@BraceMaker It fluctuates based on the total number of events held, but Pro Tour Leaderboard (as was Elite List) is weighted based on prize purse. The bigger the purse, the more points up for grabs.

Now that the Masters uses a different qualification procedure there is less motivation to chase international events for some skiers. 

[disland]

It would help if Nautique joined the Pro Tour

[UCFskier]

1 hour ago, disland said:

It would help if Nautique joined the Pro Tour

How?  so they can ban and disqualify more skiers?  🤣

[EM_]

9 hours ago, Cooleo15 said:

 

Speaking as someone who has a full time job and competes on the pro tour everything mentioned above is correct. But other factors also play a role. Like for me a lot of it is vacation days from work. I work remotely, but I have to be actively responding to emails and teams messages from 8-5 and have several meetings each day

 

At least half of us are in the situation Cole has described. We’re going to as much as we can make happen, and I think that’s better than nothing! I love all the new opportunities we’ve gotten over the past 4 years.
 

Getting to pick and choose what events you want to go to helps with some of the burn out too. 

[MichaelWiebe]

We really enjoy the variety of skiers who podium lately. They are all top skiers, but not having all the same ones always show up keeps it even more interesting.

[Horton]

The fact is that pro skiing is better than it has been in decades. The combination of TWBC and The Water Ski Pro Tour has created a meaningful structure for professional skiing. Everyone dreams of multi-million dollar Red Bull contracts and/or the economics of the late 1980s but the world has changed.  I am amazed at what the Tour organizers have achieved.  @Freddie Winter @brooks @Manon_Costard  @TonyLightfoot  Vince & unnamed others... have done more for pro skiing than anyone else in recent memory.

If you like the Pro Tour and want to see more/bigger events watch the webcasts and support the event sponsors. The same goes here – if you like BallOfSpray please support the advertisers.

[Nando]

The quality of the skiing is great and the TWBC coverage is terrific but I suspect that the vast majority of the TWBC viewers are, for lack of a better term, insiders (like us on this site).  If we look the old pro tour from the '80s and early '90s, as well as tournaments like the Moomba Masters and the Malibu Open when it was in Milwaukee, they were accessible to in-person spectators and people attended them.  World class water ski competition is entertaining, even to people with limited knowledge of the sport.  If we want any sponsorship money from outside the sport, events must return to places where people can watch them.  Yes, this means the sites may not be perfect ski lakes, but, if done right, they can still be conducive to good scores and good competition.  It takes effort and promotion and while the current pro tour is well-run from a competition standpoint,  it doesn't seem to be effectively promoted- but how do I know, I'm nowhere near any of their sites...

[bhs]

An observation from watching some of the Oxfordshire Pro event. When Ali Garcia was asked if she would like to thank anyone, she thanked her parents. I don’t think I heard a skier thank a sponsor. Manon Costard held her ski but never mentioned the brand. 

I occasionally watch Supercross and those guys don’t finish an interview with out rattling off every sponsor.

I know some of the skiers have boat and ski contracts. I wonder how deep that goes in the field of competitors?

[WaterLoo]

@bhs It takes an army to win a supercross race. Sponsors shell out 10s or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to give elite riders the best support system and accommodations possible and riders are contractually obligated to thank sponsors when they perform. 

 

In water skiing, we are basically watching a field full of privateeers. Most seem to travel to tournaments solo, are housed by friends (fellow competitors!!) and are hoping to put up a big enough score to help pay for the plane ticket and entry fees. 

 

I'm sure the top skiers are privy to some help from major sponsors but for the most part, it seems like Mom and Dad or the skier's own 9-5 are what allows them to be able to compete week in and week out. (Outside looking in so I may be way off, just my own observations from watching and listening over the years)

[NameUnavailable]

13 hours ago, Nando said:

The quality of the skiing is great and the TWBC coverage is terrific but I suspect that the vast majority of the TWBC viewers are, for lack of a better term, insiders (like us on this site).  If we look the old pro tour from the '80s and early '90s, as well as tournaments like the Moomba Masters and the Malibu Open when it was in Milwaukee, they were accessible to in-person spectators and people attended them.  World class water ski competition is entertaining, even to people with limited knowledge of the sport.  If we want any sponsorship money from outside the sport, events must return to places where people can watch them.  Yes, this means the sites may not be perfect ski lakes, but, if done right, they can still be conducive to good scores and good competition.  It takes effort and promotion and while the current pro tour is well-run from a competition standpoint,  it doesn't seem to be effectively promoted- but how do I know, I'm nowhere near any of their sites...

Well said.....when it became about the score vs to put on a show you lost spectators & sponsors. Private lakes killed it, and are killing waterskiing in general. The best stops were on public water. Like Wichita KS conditions sucked (current and backwash), but 10,000 people showed up. Between every event you had a sponsors product being sold/demo'd (people entertained). I am not saying it can ever get back to like it was, but get a crowd and the $$ will follow. 

[chrislandy]

7 hours ago, NameUnavailable said:

Well said.....when it became about the score vs to put on a show you lost spectators & sponsors. Private lakes killed it, and are killing waterskiing in general. The best stops were on public water. Like Wichita KS conditions sucked (current and backwash), but 10,000 people showed up. Between every event you had a sponsors product being sold/demo'd (people entertained). I am not saying it can ever get back to like it was, but get a crowd and the $$ will follow. 

When I was at the Oxford Pro am this weekend, it reminded me of one of the bob marley skits. Go 100yards away from the lake and you wouldn't know it was on. Its been the same for every waterski event I've been to though.

[Broussard]

@skibrent @Freddie Winter 

Not sure how you could argue that more benefits wouldn’t provide more motivation for some individuals to ski more pro events. 

Especially for those just breaking onto the scene or those with limited time off from work, being able to utilize pro tour points as a qualifier for Masters would provide more benefit (and thus for some more motivation) for attending events. 

It would be better for the sport if Nautique chose to be part of the Pro Tour and utilized the Pro Tour standings as a qualifier for Masters. Doing so would negate the need for amateur  tournaments in Florida as qualifiers and thus the time and cost associated with these as well. 

 

[TSki]

@Broussard I agree. I will say this, I don’t think the pro tour is broken, but I definitely think the masters are. It’s supposed to be the most prestigious event in water skiing but the qualification process is onerous for athletes and flawed if the goal is to ensure the top skiers attend, the judging has been questionable as well as the associated technical issues (that’s putting it extraordinarily nicely), the decisions that are being made at the tournament look to be attempts to play favorites with Nautique athlete, and there are incredibly heavy-handed repercussions for athletes that “step out of line.” That’s just things directly related the masters. Then you have things like Nautique not associating with the pro tour even though it’d be hard to think of something that would be better for the sport, and instances like with Jacinta where their athlete contracts appear to be about protecting Nautique’s status in the industry and marketability than they are about growing professional skiing and supporting their athletes. Taken together, it’s hard to see why we as fans should treat this tournament as the most prestigious event in the sport.

[Kelvin]

2 hours ago, Broussard said:

@skibrent @Freddie Winter 

It would be better for the sport if Nautique chose to be part of the Pro Tour and utilized the Pro Tour standings as a qualifier for Masters. Doing so would negate the need for amateur  tournaments in Florida as qualifiers and thus the time and cost associated with these as well. 

 

It would also open up more weekends for other potential pro tour stops in the US.

[rayn]

I was thinking about Master’s qualifying while the track and field and swimming Olympic qualifiers were going on. Very close to the same concept as the masters qualifying system. Same things happen, the best runner/swimmer skier for the last year has a bad meet and they don’t go. 
 

The good approach would be a pro tour finale that you qualify for via you standings on the tour. Think fed ex cup in golf. 

 

 

[ETskier]

We used to have qualifying tournaments for all the big international team events, like Worlds. Same thing, one of our best skiers could have a bad round and they were out. But that was the "Olympic Model". Fortunately, we quit that model.

Thought about FedEx points in pro golf. The PGA Tour is not attached to the 4 majors. But, the the tour awards the biggest FedEx points for placements in the majors.  Pro Tour players are required to play in 15 tournaments a season, about half, to compete in the tour championships for the FexEx Cup.

So, a season championship might be interesting. 

Side note:  the PGA Tour(s), PGA, USGA, WGA, and R&A, are seperate organizations. Connected in other ways, but no umbrella setup like USAWS or IWWF. The Masters does pretty much they darn well want.

[kmenard]

This has been a weird year for me being able to watch as much as I like, but I actually think it improves the sport by not having the same people over and over again. Imagine if every football game was Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. It was special because it only happened twice (or maybe 3) times a year, it was something to look forward to, and in the meantime other people could get some airtime and there would be excitement when one of the new kids went up against one of the legends. The Nate and Freddie show is AWESOME...the Jamie and Regina show is AWESOME (and yes, I am oversimplifying here)...but I love seeing some names I didn't know and what their style is like...it keeps it fresh.

[MrJones]

I feel like pro skiing is doing as well as it has since the 1980's.

I would say that the local tournament seen is what has largely died...

[chrislandy]

7 hours ago, MrJones said:

I would say that the local tournament seen is what has largely died...

Local tournaments require a large effort to organise and run. The reward for the generally volunteer effort is criticism (be it lack of turnout, wash, the boat, judges etc) rather than praise for sticking their neck out and putting on a comp.

In the UK we have 2 "local" tournament series going on now but it has taken years to get them off the ground. One is essentially a scottish series (some/all of the clubs in Scotland) and the other is a series of clubs in the Cotswolds who are within 10ish miles of each other who run a slalom comp at each lake over the year. It takes the will of a few enthusiastic people and a lot of effort. 

[LeonL]

After 22 years of tournaments, we decided to call it quits.  Participation had dwindled to single digits from highs in the 40's.  

[kmenard]

I feel like we have really good participation in the Northeast, but as @chrislandy mentioned, we have absolutely amazing coordinators and volunteers.