the new ZO plus setting?

[disland]

I have a sn196 and I tried A2 plus yesterday. I am trying to get the pull to be more like a new Nautique with the 6.2 engine.

I normally use C2. My understanding is this pull is like a letter "D". or is it more like C4? Is this correct, does anyone really know?

[jhughes]

IIRC the Rev-S "plus" setting was supposed to mimic running slalom on trick mode, giving the engine a much larger RPM range to work with to get times in a totally different way with a different algorithm. Running on trick mode was some hot trendy topic like 10 years ago so they totally reprogrammed "plus" to basically answer that feedback and be that type of pull in Rev S.

 I'm sure the old threads are still around somewhere, this would have been 2016ish. Memory is spotty and as always ICBW.

Then after all that nobody used it, LOL. I literally don't know nor have heard of anyone that uses plus.

 

[Horton]

It is not the same as a higher letter or number.

It is more aggressive but is not really like any other ZO setting on any boat. The idea was that bigger skiers would ski better with it. After it was created very few skiers ended up using it.  

[jhughes]

Here: Old thread

[ProStah_Skiah]

Like @Horton said; it's not really the same as a higher letter or number. The plus settings all enter the course at a higher gate speed and are more responsive & intense with their reaction:

[disland]

@ProStah_Skiah Thanks for the refresher, what does the  "Pull" and "release" number mean exactly?

 

It says the faster the response, but what does release mean?

[scoke]

@ProStah_Skiah

 

Thank you for posting that as that's a chart everyone should know.

 

I'll throw out a crazy/wrench in the chart though. Correct Craft, gate speed is 1.6% regardless if "plus" is turned on or not. Then get even crazier, on a single puck, it can actually go up to 2%. (34.9)

Typically single puck Correct Crafts come in at 34.7. if you are pulling a skier over 175 lbs, you can easily come in at the top of the gate at 34.9. We've recorded it on a variety of single puck SN's. Had video of it at one time.

 

Now the pull and release on/off combo, I totally buy that.

 

 

[Andre]

Why such a fast gate speed ?  And when does it tone down to 34.2 ?

[ProStah_Skiah]

2 hours ago, Andre said:

Why such a fast gate speed ?  And when does it tone down to 34.2 ?

The faster gate speed outside the entrance gates helps ensure that the boat does not fall behind during the skier's turn-in sequence & reduces the need for throttle into the buoy to catch back up.

The plus was targeted for stronger skiers that might tend to load the boat more heavily, thus the even higher entry speed than the normal setting.

The target speed returns to set speed at the entrance gate as far as I know.

[ProStah_Skiah]

3 hours ago, disland said:

@ProStah_Skiah Thanks for the refresher, what does the  "Pull" and "release" number mean exactly?

 

It says the faster the response, but what does release mean?

I'll do my best to explain 🙂

Referencing the table above...

The 'pull' and 'release' values map to the letters. When you load the boat with your pull, the boat speed will drop & the letter tells the engine how quickly to apply throttle to get back to the set speed. Conversely, when you let up on your pull the boat speed will rise & the letter tells the engine how quickly to reduce power to return to the set speed.

For the 'A' settings (pull/release = 0.3/0.7), the boat will be relatively slower to respond to skier load (closer to the wake) & will release relative quickly.

For the 'B' settings (pull/release = 0.6/0.6) the values are the same and the load & release are symmetrical.

For the 'C' settings (pull/release = 0.7/0.3) the boat will be relatively quicker to respond to the skier load (closer to the ball) & will release relatively slower.

The gForce values map to the numbers (1, 2, 3). The '1' setting requires the least amount of skier load to prompt a change in throttle rate (lower intensity & longer duration of throttle = soft feeling). The '3' setting requires the greatest amount of skier load to initiate a change in throttle rate (higher intensity & shorter duration of throttle = firm feeling).

Hope this helps!

[Horton]

@scoke I read what you wrote and don't want to know more. I have a feeling if you explained it further I might lose my temper. 

[Drago]

8 hours ago, disland said:

I have a sn196 and I tried A2 plus yesterday. I am trying to get the pull to be more like a new Nautique with the 6.2 engine.

I normally use C2. My understanding is this pull is like a letter "D". or is it more like C4? Is this correct, does anyone really know?

@disland C2 is a monster pull with a 6.2.*
Not knowing what engine is in your SN, you may never match that pull. 
the "new" + is the same as the other settings,  with a little juice through the wake. You can hear it with a good skier. All settings  go faster and slower than actual, therefore the gate will be faster (unless you don't pull out). You can read charts all day long, but why not just try it? If you ski a C2, try C2+ with a weaker engine. 
* I suggest you check boat path if you feel the need for a C2, unless you're a very big man. 
**most people that think + sucks still have the old plus in their mind, = way fast gate like PP, 

[rockdog]

@The_MS is gonna love this thread.. much like me.

[scoke]

Horton don’t read this!

skier weighs about 120lbs, 22-34 last night at Okeeheelee. Top of the gate every pass. 

Oh the question “when does the boat go 34.2?” I had a gut answer and it was confirmed: typically through the centerline and just after it. 
 

single puck 6.0 in 2019 200. 
 

Can someone check my gate speed math? 
Malibu’s and Mastercraft are at 0.79. 
 

 

[liquid d]

AHHH, when i read these threads , it makes me happy to remember the "Rocky and Tommy Show" from Miami.... A tournament that would fill up as soon as the guide came out! Get your tickets folks!

[The_MS]

It all comes down to finding a number you like.  After that,  move the letter around if you feel out of sync with the boat. (Unless your driver sucks) 

It sucks that nobody thinks that helping a big Skier out at the gates is cheating. Everyone is OK with the plus settings, but nobody would ever agree with me on wanting it to ease back on a big load and allow it to produce 16.99 🙉

 

[ktm300]

Amen @The_MS.   The negative reinforcement can be unnecessarily brutal.  I am just a Class C skier trying to ski around work and other obligations.  I'm going to make mistakes.  With the modern boats, the punishment does not seem to fit the crime.  Beating a dead horse though; it is what it is.

[LeonL]

2 hours ago, ktm300 said:

Amen @The_MS.   The negative reinforcement can be unnecessarily brutal.  I am just a Class C skier trying to ski around work and other obligations.  I'm going to make mistakes.  With the modern boats, the punishment does not seem to fit the crime.  Beating a dead horse though; it is what it is.

"punishment doesn't fit the crime", one of the best quotes about ZO / new boats I've ever read.

[dchristman]

On 7/2/2024 at 12:16 PM, ProStah_Skiah said:

Like @Horton said; it's not really the same as a higher letter or number. The plus settings all enter the course at a higher gate speed and are more responsive & intense with their reaction:

I would like to point out that the above chart is for Rev R.  See here - zerooffpresentation.pdf  I seem to recall seeing a similar chart for Rev S, probably posted by @Gloersen, but I can't find it anywhere. My recollection is that the gate speed for + is supposed to be the same as non-plus with Rev S.

[Drago]

23 hours ago, dchristman said:

I would like to point out that the above chart is for Rev R.  See here - zerooffpresentation.pdf  I seem to recall seeing a similar chart for Rev S, probably posted by @Gloersen, but I can't find it anywhere. My recollection is that the gate speed for + is supposed to be the same as non-plus with Rev S.

😉 like I said.

[Andre]

Looking for the ZO chart that explain the diffrence between letters and numbers that we sometimes see on TWBC. Anyone has it?

Edit: That one or anyone that explain the best the differences.

[dchristman]

@Andredid you look at the presentation document I linked above?  That describes Rev R and has charts and graphs.  In both Rev R and S, "+" is more, but in a different way. I can find nothing that documents Rev S with similar detail. Only what's on the zero-off website. "+" will allow you to optimize your skiing and break new personal records, so why not give it a try?

What's New in Revision S

The new Revision S (Rev S) enhances the existing SLALOM PLUS mode for skiers who want a more responsive pull. The Jump and Trick modes remain the same as Rev R. After 18 months of testing and validation, the new Rev S slalom:

• Keeps all the current slalom settings (A,B,C,1,2,3) and features skiers have come to appreciate with Rev R; and 
• Provides a redesign of the PLUS “+” setting which is more responsive and progressive than the previous slalom “+” pull.

Skiers who like a bit more acceleration out of the turn will find that the Rev S SLALOM PLUS setting improves acceleration off the buoy and through the wakes, resulting in an earlier and freer feel into the next buoy. Skiers of all abilities and sizes will find that Rev S allows them to optimize their skiing and break new personal records.

[scoke]

2 hours ago, Andre said:

Looking for the ZO chart that explain the diffrence between letters and numbers that we sometimes see on TWBC. Anyone has it?

Edit: That one or anyone that explain the best the differences.

My charts might be lost. If you or someone has access to the “way back machine” the links have what you’re looking for:

P

[dchristman]

I was trying to search the wayback machine earlier. Unfortunately it seems only the main site, not the forum content is there. I sent an email to Freddy and Will to see what supporting information they may have.

[BobF]

@Andre I refer to this one every once in a while.

 

[dchristman]

Will's reponse-

"Yes – The Table you refer for is from 2016 for version R.  I have not done a similar table for version S.

Specifically related to the R table you refer to,  in version S  “+” plus mode, the GATE Speed Elevation (% of set speed) - just before boat enters course is set at .75%     For version R  “+” mode, the GATE Speed Elevation was 1.6%"

 

[Mastercrafter]

@dchristman while you’re talking with those in the know, can you confirm whether or not elevated gate speed is maintained in practice mode? 

[dchristman]

@MastercrafterJeez, I had already replied "thanks, no more questions"!  According to @scokein this thread

they tested it and the elevated gate speed is maintained if the course is "locked" in. @scokecan you elaborate on "locked"? does that mean auto select needs to be turned off and the course manually selected?

[lkb]

[scoke]

@dchristman

7 years phew time flies. 

fairly certain I was thinking and relaying that, probably  yes, turn off auto select and then choose course, make sure your letter is selected then go from there. 
 

 

[chaloux]

1 hour ago, lkb said:

I am so intrigued because what this thread is saying is not what I expected.  I was able to do a bunch of sets behind a 19 ski Nautique with 450hp last year and having little experience with ZO, I found B2 to almost pull me over the front by the time I was hitting the wakes. We went to B3 and I felt much better. I have just used B3 since with all different boats, but am surprised I liked it more based on what I'm seeing here.  Except for that perhaps I am more in my peak stacked stance while the boat is revving up, so I can't feel it as much 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Drago]

37 minutes ago, chaloux said:

I am so intrigued because what this thread is saying is not what I expected.  I was able to do a bunch of sets behind a 19 ski Nautique with 450hp last year and having little experience with ZO, I found B2 to almost pull me over the front by the time I was hitting the wakes. We went to B3 and I felt much better. I have just used B3 since with all different boats, but am surprised I liked it more based on what I'm seeing here.  Except for that perhaps I am more in my peak stacked stance while the boat is revving up, so I can't feel it as much 🤷🏻‍♂️

@chaloux That makes no sense.(to me)

[chaloux]

2 hours ago, Drago said:

@chaloux That makes no sense.(to me)

I agree lol