Reflex / Vapor boot set up Correct?

[101driver]

I would appreciate any one with more experience than me just taking a look at two photo's bellow and letting me know if I have made an obvious stupid mistake.

This is my first set up with reflex release and I am using it with 2024 radar vapor boot

I have adjusted the release as per video @horton posted to release when stepping forward. I am getting a figure on spring rate of 2 I can sometimes only just with a massive amount of force just get it to release at 3, but 2 seems right a real positive drive forward and just releases and does so every time. The figure in box which is for reflex with reflex boot says 4.5 seems a big difference? is this normal for this set up. The release arm is mounted on the rear pair out of 4 screw holes to bear down straight on boot step. size12

Any advice appreciated

[C5Quest]

Which release is that?  It look like either the newer 840 or 930?  These charts are a starting point, then watch the videos and adjust as necessary.  Im around 170lbs and running around 3ish on the setting.  It seems to release when needed.  Everyone varies.  The difference I found is the Radar Vapor boot can be run at a lower setting due to the softer cuff.  The reflex boots are all hard shell and with little give when leaned forward.  so that keeps the tension and releases immediately.  Do not leave your Vapor boot loose!!  The soft upper cuff allows you to lean very far forward before you get the same about of release tension.  Almost blew out my Achilles .  I get them nice and tight so it releases correctly.  Also use the Velcro strap that came with the boot to keep the top tight.  So running a lower number than these charts is probably accurate and safer option if it feels right.  These are reflex boots/reflex release numbers.

[101driver]

@C5QuestThank you for comprehensive reply and advice. It makes sense now that you have explained. I will sinch the upper cuff a little tighter.

[skialex]

@101driver I have the same boot on a reflex system, I run the DIN a little lighter than with my reflex shell, I have it at 4. Works great for over 2 years now. I just wouldn’t feel that safe using the oversized loop made as an extra safety for the super shell. 
Use the Standard reflex toe bar (loop), it’s thicker and has bigger bases and this is what is meant to use.

the one you are using will bend forward if used as primarily forward block. It’s bases are small and carbon plate is not the robust as the g10 one.

also I don’t know if it lets the shell sit at the right spot in order for the release to provide the forward tension needed for the system to operate safely.

I have also changed the bungee cord to a lace and I also use the Velcro strap.

[C5Quest]

@skialex ya good call on the toe loop.  I also use a lace instead of the bungee .doesnt the reflex plate have an issue with angling the boot to the outside a bit?  The radar plate had that issue until they updated the plate with specific left/right holes to mount the toe loop.

[101driver]

@skialexThank you, I will dig out the smaller hoop and fit that instead. It wasn't contacting the boot because of the larger hoop. So I have removed the wrong one.

Does any one have any idea which of the pairs of release mount holes I should then use?

[skialex]

1 hour ago, 101driver said:

@skialexThank you, I will dig out the smaller hoop and fit that instead. It wasn't contacting the boot because of the larger hoop. So I have removed the wrong one.

Does any one have any idea which of the pairs of release mount holes I should then use?

Try the rear first and if there is play then move it forward. You don’t have to put the m4 nuts on while determining which mount holes to use.

@C5Quest yes, but never bothered me, so I stick with the reflex plate.

[DW]

@101driver - Reflex offers a video describing and demonstrating the release test.  Should not matter what specific boot is clamped down, worth doing prior to hitting the liquid.

[aupatking]

@C5Quest The Radar “offset” plate seems to be entirely skier specific. I tried it and went back to the center drilled plate. @101driver The Supershell toe loop has to have the spacer removed. Unscrew the base from the U and remove those spacers and it will fit perfectly. Also, all holes on the Radar Vapor plate are marked for the Vapor boot. If you are using the Reflex plate, as long as you are using the same size convention (even sizes only) the screw placement shouldn’t really change

Also, a big plus of the Vapor boot is the odd size availability. I was always tight in the Reflex 10 but too loose for my comfort in the 12. The Radar 11 is perfect. The Vapor plate has marked holes for both the toe loop and the release mechanism based on boot size

[Jsh809]

I have that setup, Vapor boot, radar plate and a 930 release. I had to switch out the bungee top lace for a regular non-stretch lace to get the system to release properly. I’ve been on it for a season and a half with no issues.

[Horton]

Ignore the charts - do not use the numbers. 

Process in below video but have someone step in the back of the ski when you do the process. 

 

[101driver]

Firstly, Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. Your informative posts have been useful to me and will I am sure be useful to others reading who may be contemplating this or similar set up.

To confirm what has been said,This is what I found  sinching up tighter results in easier release, the safety comments about why to swap bungie out for solid lace seem very relevant to me. Some one standing on the back of ski also made a big difference, for you guys with more practiced movement perhaps less so but for first timers like me, it made a significant difference. Lastly the release has got easier, I have tested before each session, bedding in? Me? So going to reset again today as per @Hortonexcellent instructional video.

I will fit the smaller hoop and set when I get back home, unfortunately I have been abandoned at the lake with no transport for 3 days and with no option but to ski and ski and ski, sooo not ideal but it tests safe for release and I am only skiing light getting used to new set up...........yeah I know!

Thank you again for taking time to share your knowledge of this subject

[Rednucleus]

@101driver there are worse places you can be stranded!

[101driver]

@RednucleusI guess so, my daughter's car's broke down, so it looks like I might be here for a while....living on a diet of home made venison sausage, porridge and venison chilli. But I am getting to adjust to new ski and binding. It is very different to my old HO TX and animal. Starting to feel a bit more at home.

[Rednucleus]

Now that's the ultimate skier's breakfast!!

[ToddK]

@101driver I still had some vertical play in the toe after removing the spacers. A 10mm plastic tube I got on Amazon did the trick. 

[Chewy]

I have just put together the same set up with a 2024 vapor boot and radar plate. Using an 840 release.  I put the toe loop in size 12 holes like the boot size but I am not sure I have the release in the right holes on the back of the plate. Number are a bit confusing. Here are some pics. Let me know if the holes are right for a 12 vapor boothttps://photos.app.goo.gl/8gjK2kPnQH5VQeXM6

[vtmecheng]

@Chewy that is not correct for a size 12. You have the toe loop right but the release should be in the forward holes. It will be hard to get the reflex to click in the first two time but then it will be good to go. First time you click in, put your foot in the boot and stand on it. Your weight will help push everything down so the reflex clicks into place easier. Feel free to message me with questions, I have spent a decent amount of time setting this up and talking to Radar about it.

2 hours ago, ToddK said:

@101driver I still had some vertical play in the toe after removing the spacers. A 10mm plastic tube I got on Amazon did the trick. 

@101driverThat doesn’t seem right. Not sure what size you have there but both a 12 and 13 I have set up had zero play on the top and sides.

[Chewy]

I tried the forward holes but couldn't get it to click down. I will have to try with boot on like you suggest 

[101driver]

@ToddK Thanks for post what size boots?

Thank You again everyone for detailed posts and especially the pictures which are really informative.

Armed with the information that you have provided I have revisited my attempted set up......Carbon reflex plate, 930 Reflex release, size 12 vapour carbitex boot 2024

I have tried every combination of the two hoops and bolt holes conclusion:

• Original set up with light (rear) hoop only no spaces mounted in it's rear holes, with release on rear holes worked there was positive 3 point contact on toe and release held boot down and forward into hoop. DFT (Distance from rear of plate not ski) 0.435" power setting 4 angle of angled rod on release 34degrees, I changed to measuring rear verticle plastic section subsequently as this structure proved easier to measure, anyone bothered can convert.
• Both hoops does not work
• Heavy small front hoop only mounted on its forward holes with out spacers single point contact 72" of side tow movement possible, reasonable expectation that this would allow with the angle and a liitle flex boot release CONSIDERED DANGEROUS as well as poor fit.
• PREFERRED OPTION Heavy small front hoop only mounted on it's forward holes with spacers gave good positive 3 point contact, the top of the goal post contacted the concave radius on the upper front of the vapour boot in a positive manner suggesting this was designed this way. Release on forward holes power setting 3.75 DFT 0.728 angle of vertical plastic on release 100 degrees
• Above set up with release on rear holes held boot down but not positively engages with front hoop considered DANGEROUS. As angle reduces down from 100degrees towards 90 on various combinations of mounting the reduced forward resolved force has a detrimental effect on positive toe retention as would of course be expected.

 

[vtmecheng]

@101driver I use the radar plate so can’t comment on your setup. I definitely found with the radar plate and everything in the correct positions that the first few times clipping in it seemed too tight. After those few times in and out, it clips in with perfect tightness. Definitely need to get that right or it can prerelease.

[101driver]

@vtmecheng I think this point that you make is IMPORTANT I found exactly the same, both on the original set up and also this one. There seems to be a settling in needed where all the little bits snug down tight. @Horton video was clearly set with the objective of safety, there is I believe a secondary benefit, that by following the procedure @Horton demonstrate backing off then progressively tightening,  gives the mechanism chance to snug down into it's final position. Once that has happened subsequently a single test to verify before each use will probably suffice. I went from 2 to 4 over first tests and use on first set up, each test before use required a little more tightening. I went from 2 to 3.75 on second set up. TEST BEFORE USE seems to be our collective conclusion for all the good reasons.

[vtmecheng]

@101driver there definitely seems to be a setting in period but it’s only the first couple times clipping in and is definitely done after a set. I personally would NOT dock test before each use. That’s a lot of cycles of the components and will cause them to wear out quickly. I leave it all attached and just take my foot out of the boot when in the water at the end of each set. That way I don’t clip and unclip over and over, wearing things out more and that seems unnecessary. Don’t over think this once all good. Get it set and go ski, testing every once in awhile.

[101driver]

@vtmecheng Thank you for your advice, you are further down the road and more experienced than me. What you propose seems reasonable and fits with what I have found in the short time that I have tested.

[Horton]

@101driver I have over a thousand rides on one Reflex setup or another so my comfort level is pretty high. I rarely retest on the dock once I get a system set up. I do kick out at the end of a ride every once in a while. What I do is push with my back foot to force a release. This is nowhere near as good as a dock test but it lets me know things work.

[101driver]

Thank You @Horton for clarification and sharing. This has been a really useful thread which will I am sure help others as well as me wanting to go this way. BOS at it's best IMPO those who know helping those who don't on their journey.

[ToddK]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:41 PM, 101driver said:

@ToddK Thanks for post what size boots?

@101driver I have an early production size 10 on the Reflex carbon plate. I can't tell you if it was a reasonable tolerance issue on the plate, loop and or boot but it definitely was not a forward pressure issue. I got the idea on the plastic tube from another baller on a older thread who was having the same issue. I ran the issue and mods by Brooks to make sure I wasn't missing something. 

[skialex]

@ToddK I know that baller 😉 

the plastic hose over the toe bar, not only takes some play away, it also protects the shell from scuffing.

[DW]

@Horton - good thought and safety step check, thx for that tip.  How hard do you push to get a release?

[Horton]

@DW

Well that is part of why this is hard. It is a judgment call. If it feels right....

How hard would you push to get out of a rubber binding? I wish I had a more technical answer. 

[Killer]

On 6/19/2024 at 6:10 AM, 101driver said:

I would appreciate any one with more experience than me just taking a look at two photo's bellow and letting me know if I have made an obvious stupid mistake.

This is my first set up with reflex release and I am using it with 2024 radar vapor boot

I have adjusted the release as per video @horton posted to release when stepping forward. I am getting a figure on spring rate of 2 I can sometimes only just with a massive amount of force just get it to release at 3, but 2 seems right a real positive drive forward and just releases and does so every time. The figure in box which is for reflex with reflex boot says 4.5 seems a big difference? is this normal for this set up. The release arm is mounted on the rear pair out of 4 screw holes to bear down straight on boot step. size12

Any advice appreciated

Where did you get that toe bar?  Different from the one that came with my radar plate/840 release.

[101driver]

@Killer The bar in that set up is the lighter second bar. If you read down the thread @skialex posted a useful comment about this being the incorrect bar. Subsequent set up used the smaller heavier bar which goes at the front. It is now clear to me that @skialex was correct and the original set up with the lighter bar further back was incorrect, though it was secure and did release correctly. Both bars came with the reflex carbon plate and release as a complete kit with spacers to use or not as necessary for both bars.

[Killer]

On 6/20/2024 at 6:22 PM, ToddK said:

@101driver I still had some vertical play in the toe after removing the spacers. A 10mm plastic tube I got on Amazon did the trick. 

I took a nasty otf early this season and believe it was because there was some play in the toe and as the ski flexed it released.  I just wrapped the bar in duct tape.  That's a more attractive option though!

[vtmecheng]

Maybe I'm completely off base here but play in the toe, or really anywhere in this system would not make me feel comfortable. Prerelease OTFs are painful.

On the tension, that is also extremely personal. I go for tighter that I can just release in a dock test without pain. It took me a few times to get the feel for a dock test so don't settle on doing it once. Also, the boot size is a factor in the right tension. A larger boot is usually harder to release than a smaller one, though for me the Reflex table value wasn't too far off and I suspect that was luck based on what others have found.