Does Pro Water Skiing need “John McEnroe” characters or not?

[Horton]

A few years ago, Freddie Winter missed the finals at Masters due to what many believed was an unjust call by the judges, compounded by a failure of the official video system. Freddie protested vigorously, which led to his disqualification and exclusion from the following year's event.

This year, Freddie returned to the Masters but again missed the finals due to what some argue was another unfair call. He made an official protest, which was denied, and then quietly left the site.

Another example is Jon Travers, who, during the first LCQ, expressed dissatisfaction with being placed in a runoff in high wind conditions and may have made a “disrespectful gesture” toward the judges after his ride. While this behavior isn't exemplary sportsmanship, it does reflect his passion. However, Jon Travers was terminated by Nautique for his apparent gesture.

Clearly, there needs to be a distinction between acceptable behavior and unsportsmanlike conduct. My question is: Is professional skiing becoming too much like a country club? How much should we sanitize the sport? And are larger personalities ultimately beneficial or detrimental to its growth?

[Mastercrafter]

The common denominator here is Nautique, more than professional skiing, is it not? 

Freddie, Jacinta, Travers, Masters issues.. 

Nautique is a privately owned company and they can do whatever they want, I can't argue that. 

I think the bigger issue is how powerful Nautique has become in the sport of waterskiing. 

[disland]

Maybe we should be asking why its always the Masters who have these problems and no where else?

[kmenard]

I don't think you want to eliminate it, but you can't condone it either. It just takes a short look at a local kids ball game to understand how these things can get pretty out of hand with Refs....at the same time, there are far more egregious behaviors that have had very little consequence. 

[UWSkier]

1 hour ago, Mastercrafter said:

The common denominator here is Nautique, more than professional skiing, is it not? 

Freddie, Jacinta, Travers, Masters issues.. 

Nautique is a privately owned company and they can do whatever they want, I can't argue that. 

I think the bigger issue is how powerful Nautique has become in the sport of waterskiing. 

the fanbois are cracking their knuckles and about to start pounding on their keyboards.

But I agree.

But it's also not all their doing.  Malibu effectively pulled the plug on its 3 event efforts.  I wouldn't be shocked if MC does the same within 5 years.  It's extremely unlikely there's a positive ROI in supporting 3 event anymore...

[Horton]

@UWSkier

My conversations with management at MasterCraft lead me to believe their involvement in skiing is not going anywhere. Last year there were more ProStars sold than any other ski boat.

[LeonL]

"disrespectful gesture"  That would not be the first time.  JT gave similar to spectators several years ago after an early fall.   They cheered him for his effort,  he didn't accept it as such.

[pcmcon729]

Regarding the comment in regards to the possibility of Mastercraft pulling out of 3 event within 5 years. I don't even pretend to have any knowledge about what happens behind the scenes within the industry, but with Mastercraft's laser focus on developement of the skier and driver experience with the Prostar being demonstrated further every year, there is nobody more commited in my opinion, and that opinion is unbiased, I have owned MC and Nautiques and love them both.

[dave2ball]

@Mastercrafter nautique has every right to terminate JT for what he may of done. It’s not a power issue it is a responsibility and respect to your sponsors.  It does not matter if the company  is publicly traded or privately owned.  
JT was representing Nautique when he was on and off the water when at these events. He is a professional in the sport. Regardless of how he skied or his views on the conditions he should have handled the issue with professionalism and spoke with the proper officials.  
Jacimta was sponsored by Nautique and went out and set a jump record behind MC. what boat company would keep a skier who did that. 

As for masters, this is the only event that only takes the 8 best/ qualifying skiers in both men and women. It is going to be tense at the qualifiers.  Nautique is just the sponsor. They just set the bar for the skiers who need to qualify. 

[ral]

For sure I do not believe waterskiing   needs people that shout, disrespects or assaults judges in particular and people in general.
 

The company in question here does not want nor tolerate that behavior in events/teams they sponsor, and I do not believe that is an abuse of power to do so  

 

[liquid d]

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME WITH THIS QUESTION!!  YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!

[JackQ]

Not sure these equate. One case was the alleged behavior of a skier towards officals and the organizers punishment. The other is a sponsor choosing to drop sponsorship of a skier whose behavior they did not “appreciate.”  I believe a sponsor has much more (if not total) discretion on what support they provide a sponsored skier, presently or in the future.   An event organize does not have the same latitude toward event participants.  

[vtmecheng]

Athletes should be allowed to argue a case and show passion, just as in most sports. Taking that away makes things much less interesting. Inappropriate gestures and language can’t be tolerated but passion or pleading a case should be allowed. Skiers should be allowed to say an opinion during an interview. We should see if two skiers don’t get along. Controversy, passion, and conflict are interesting in all sports. People love to hate other players and teams as much as they love to follow their favorites. Also, no skier should ever feel they can’t ski their best because of the boat brand at a tournament. Next a Masterline skier won’t be allowed to ski their best at an event using an SLines or HO rope.

[UWSkier]

3 hours ago, Horton said:

@UWSkier

My conversations with management at MasterCraft lead me to believe their involvement in skiing is not going anywhere. Last year there were more ProStars sold than any other ski boat.

as there should be.  It's an excellent boat.  They sell every one they build.  Would that continue to be the case if 3 event went away?  If the spreadsheet clan thinks so, that'd suck...

[Cooper_Trelawney]

Personality and passion are good for the sport and generates more loyal fans.  Think about most well-known athletes in other sports and the have energy and charisma.  Unfortunately, although I think McEnroe was awesome to watch in his day, his tirades probably wouldn't fly today.  It's interesting that one can argue that professional tennis and professional waterskiing were at their most famous ar the same time, in the 1980s.

I'm sorry to hear Nautique cut Travers.  His family has been long-time supporters of the brand.  I wonder if they could have suspended his team skier privilege or had done something else to make their point.

Finally,  this doesn't seem like a popular opinion,  but I think a skier should be able to go for a record and possibly break a record behind whatever tow boat is pulling a tournament without threat of being cut by their sponsor.  Record breaking moments are rare enough.   I say Go For It!

[Horton]

@UWSkier sadly, three event is not really the point. Slalom is the market. ProStars are a good business and brand heritage.

@Cooper_Trelawney if Fred or Joel break a world record behind a Boston Whaler or any boat, MasterCraft is still behind them.

[ETskier]

More Joel Poland types, less John McEnroe types.

[dave2ball]

@disland nautique just sets the bar as I mentioned in another post. The tournament host controls everything else.

[BKistler]

@ETskier Brilliant response. Well done. 

[Cooper_Trelawney]

@Horton as it should be regardless of the athlete or boat sponsor.   Otherwise,  our sport is jaded (compromised?) I'm not sure what's the correct saying...

[APB]

Damn…. JT would look good behind a MC…. 

[Broussard]

Quote

 

 

Jacimta was sponsored by Nautique and went out and set a jump record behind MC. what boat company would keep a skier who did that. 

@dave2ball Freddy Krueger set two records behind a Malibu during his time with MasterCraft. Chris Parrish set a record behinds MasterCraft while sponsored by Malibu. I'm would think Andy set a record behind a MasterCraft while sponsored by Nautique. I'm sure there are others I'm missing...

[Stevie Boy]

Vanilla is Boring, in a conversation with the Great Andy Mapple, that understood the sport more than most, he said that in his opinion, there were not enough skiers with Character or Charisma to get people interested, I  think TWBC has helped, but the Wild and Wacky people in sports, is what gets people's attention, on the other side you get the odd people who do not ski, who get themselves into positions of power, nobodies who want to be somebody, all sports encounter this issue, normally people long in the tooth, far from being open minded, stuck in their way of thinking.

Colourful Characters Make The World Brighter!

 

[dave2ball]

@Broussardyou are correct. What were the circumstances?  When a title sponsor such as Master Craft Coors lLight tour skiers often had clauses in their contracts because they don’t have the choice of boat.  This is how they make a living.  The MFG really  didn’t have a choice. Skiers   income depends on wins or records being set. With the tour today as it stands there is no title sponsor.  Boat MFG may not be putting clauses like they did in the 80’s and 90’s.     

[Jody_Seal]

13 hours ago, liquid d said:

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME WITH THIS QUESTION!!  YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!

I know right? but who the hell is john McEnroe?

I think we need more John Daly in our sport!

[Broussard]

@dave2ball

Quote

What were the circumstances?

Freddy Krueger | US Open | Austin Aquaplex | Malibu (1999)

Freddy Krueger | Malibu Open | Bel Aqua | Malibu (2002)

Chris Parrish | H2OSMOSIS 2ND SWERVE | Trophy Lakes | MasterCraft (2005)

[dave2ball]

@Broussard a titled event such as masters nautique only. A tour sponsored by one specific boat MFG.  Agreed upon  terms the contract .  

[Broussard]

4 minutes ago, dave2ball said:

@Broussard a titled event such as masters nautique only. A tour sponsored by one specific boat MFG.  

@dave2ball The US Open was a singular event organized by Malibu in 1999. Malibu only. Not part of a tour.

The Malibu Open was a titled event sponsored by... Malibu. They got tired of dealing with USAWS and started hosting the Malibu Open instead of the US Open. Again, Malibu only. Not part of a tour.

I fail to see how these are different than the Masters besides that they were Malibu events instead of a Nautique event.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe H2OSMOSIS 2ND SWERVE was a backyard tournament. Not a titled event or a tour sponsored by one specific manufacturer.

 

[Stevie Boy]

Connors vs Mc Enroe

Just pure Entertainment! 

How many people went out of their way to tune in for that?

[The_MS]

Water skiing will never have a McEnroe due to no audience. It is pretty hard to develop a bad boy reputation when nobody cares. It’s not like you’re on the wide world of sports every weekend.
 

 

[dave2ball]

@Broussard it really all comes down to what is in the contract between the skier and sponsors as to setting records. 

[BobF]

With all due respect to Jacinta, I find it hard to believe that any jumper can leave the ramp with the best jump possible to win a tournament, but just short of a WR on purpose.  I don't think there's a point in the cut where an athlete is saying "OK, just enough to go 199...".  Even in slalom, where a skier could possibly "lose the handle" (wink, wink) just before the WR buoy, it's inconceivable to me that it's a thought at the time.

[Broussard]

@dave2ball 100% - not saying Nautique was wrong for dropping Jacinta. I'm not sure what the terms of their agreement were, and they have every right to make decisions regarding their sponsored athletes as they see fit.

Just answering the question that was posed: "What boat company would keep a skier who did that."

[JAS]

In most cases there is always more to the story. Until all parameters can be determined electronically, human judgement will set standard. Skiers have lived with the good and bad all their lives so nothing new. Hats off to judges doing their best to make the call. Hats off to skiers that navigate issues with class. Like Rossi says, straight arms, straight arms, have fun.

I am a big fan of Joe Poland and the positive energy he injects into competitive skiing. I think “McEnroeish” episodes take our sport in the wrong direction. 

 

[mike_mapple]

14 hours ago, Horton said:

@UWSkier sadly, three event is not really the point. Slalom is the market. ProStars are a good business and brand heritage.

@Cooper_Trelawney if Fred or Joel break a world record behind a Boston Whaler or any boat, MasterCraft is still behind them.

This may or may not be true, if they break the record while trying to win the event 100% they will be same with Nautique, however Rabbit already won that event, and did not need to ski an extra round trying to break the record..its been that way with contracts for a long time

[Horton]

@mike_mapple

The difference is the culture inside each boat companies

[mike_mapple]

I mean not to take nautiques side, but if her contract state(d) that she isnt to break a record unless it means winning the tournament, there is no argument, she voided the contract.  Im sure mastercraft would do the same with Freddie (if its worded into his) that if he wins the tournament behind a nautique with a 2 at 41 but he runs the pass, no reason to keep skiing past that they would be well within rights to void his contract. Again, it comes down to how contracts are worded, and I know what my dads was and a few other athletes have that same clause 

Edited May 31 by mike_mapple

[Jody_Seal]

@mike_mapple   Yep!!!

[Horton]

@mike_mapple I 100% believe you. Think that is heavy-handed. 

[mfjaegersr]

Indeed, Nautique can do as it pleases; swiftly cutting a team member for an offense as egregious as using the wrong finger to tell the Judges they’re #1…that represents real progress in their moral turpitude department right? It only took how many years to eighty-six the sexual predator/girl-beater guy?!

[schafer]

@Horton we are talking about the same JT that swims in robin lake to install a jump ramp and buoys for the Nautique masters? (Along with a bunch of other work)

[BS74]

Does anyone know what the cash rewards were for 1 thru4 in  men's and women's slalom masters  finals?

[Sethro]

Do the boat manufacturers really think because a world record was set, typically an improvement by a very small margin over the old record, it's going to suddenly want all of us to go buy that boat???  I'd rather market the fact I sponsor the world record holder regardless of when, where, and behind what boat it was set.  I think the serious skiing niche group understands it's not the boat, it's the skier.

[MISkier]

5 minutes ago, Sethro said:

Do the boat manufacturers really think because a world record was set, typically an improvement by a very small margin over the old record, it's going to suddenly want all of us to go buy that boat???  I'd rather market the fact I sponsor the world record holder regardless of when, where, and behind what boat it was set.  I think the serious skiing niche group understands it's not the boat, it's the skier.

I agree.  Want to sell some boats?  Show a montage of skiers across all age divisions and speeds slicing smoothly through your 22 off wake.

[vtmecheng]

18 minutes ago, MISkier said:

I agree.  Want to sell some boats?  Show a montage of skiers across all age divisions and speeds slicing smoothly through your 22 off wake.

Better yet, show a bunch of skiers like me at 22 off. If I get across smoothly, everyone should buy that boat.

[Mastercrafter]

.

1 hour ago, MISkier said:

I agree.  Want to sell some boats?  Show a montage of skiers across all age divisions and speeds slicing smoothly through your 22 off wake.

Well, that eliminates at least one boat. 

[APB]

2 hours ago, mfjaegersr said:

Indeed, Nautique can do as it pleases; swiftly cutting a team member for an offense as egregious as using the wrong finger to tell the Judges they’re #1…that represents real progress in their moral turpitude department right? It only took how many years to eighty-six the sexual predator/girl-beater guy?!

In that situation, it’s honourable of nautique to have stepped up. Our sport, however, did not. They turned the blind eye.

[jjackkrash]

I used to love the whole Connors/McEnroe vibe in pro tennis.  And there is nothing wrong with “colorful” in any sport, IMO.  But I just don’t see a lot of crossover potential for that same Connors/McEnroe vibe in skiing.  And I don’t think tourney officials are down for the type of abuse McEnroe laid on the line judges.  It's hard enough to get people to work tourneys as is.  

[unksskis]

Nautique doesn’t have anything to lose cutting JT.  Unless the ski school changes manufacturers, he will indirectly/unofficially represent Nautique for free. 

[vtmecheng]

Totally destroys sports and people wanting to watch…

https://www.instagram.com/slightlyangryathletes?igsh=MTUzYzZmMmRjYjBwNQ==