Nautique Banning Freddy Winter From Masters

[Fbris]

It seems to me that the two tower judges should have deferred to the boat judge since a video was not available. How many times have we seen the judges in other pro sports get together and go with the judge who has the best angle/view.

This definitely hurts the quality of this years Masters that one of the top skiers in the world has been banned in 2023 for language (let’s assume he used some language that you don’t hear on “Big Bird”) that occurred in 2022. The video equipment was obviously faulty. Did Nautique ban the video operator from future events? A good video feed solves this issue. Nautique has only brought ill will upon themselves by so many in the sport by their actions that clearly appear to be based on sponsorship. Does ANYONE believe if Freddie was a Nautique sponsor that he would have been banned from this years event? Certainly if he was a Nautique sponsor they would have said to Freddie: “We love your passion Freddie but let’s watch the language “Ok”.” Nautique would certainly have wanted to see Freddie’s D3 ski with their logo on it when he is on the podium if Freddie was one of their endorsers. For which he undoubtedly will be on that podium many times this year. 
 

Freddie brings a passion to the sport like McEnroe and Connors brought to professional tennis. Their passion brought in more viewers not fewer. 
 

I don’t believe Freddie would have been so upset if he hadn't made that 6th buoy. 
 

Numerous mistakes were obviously made last year. All Nautique has done is to compound those mistakes. It is a sad situation for all involved. 
 

I don’t know if I will watch this years Masters or not. Hardly a “Masters” when one of the top skiers in the world is missing. And BTW who would have even remembered this issue if Nautique didn’t ban Freddie this year. Sometimes you just have to let “dead dogs lie”.  Nautique needs to reach out to Freddie and work this out.  All parties need to apologize to the other, shake hands, and “Come out skiing!”.

[Horton]

22 minutes ago, Fbris said:

It seems to me that the two tower judges should have deferred to the boat judge since a video was not available. How many times have we seen the judges in other pro sports get together and go with the judge who has the best angle/view.

The rules do not allow for that 

[lpskier]

@Jody_Seal Hear hear!

[Drago]

This is getting heavy, but

Seems to me nearly everyone takes an L (by what I've read on this thread)

For a class R, which the Masters is, the tech wasn't complete. Towers weren't in the right place/cameras weren't in the right place

Judges weren't in the right place and they were missing judges (camera review)

Judges didn't judge. "I don't know" isn't an option--to be fair they weren't in a place to see buoy six live (?)

skier protested correctly, but didn't like the appeal (justifiably considering above⬆️)

LOC is overly sensitive/ not willing to admit they made a mistake. Skier expects R rules. Either both parties took a breath and worked toward a solution/ not making this mistake in the future, or they both crossed their arms and didn't budge.

Imho, the Masters is an Old School pro event and it shouldn't be an R tournament. The lake can't operate within R rules, and why try? Nobody is setting a world record on Robin Lake. "Back in My Day" ( and @Bruce_Butterfield and @liquid d) many pro tours were class C, or even F, because they were on lakes in business parks, etc, wherever they could get the most eyeballs. Today's pros should either accept that Masters is more about the show, or if they expect perfect class R conditions (and therefore rules) on Robin Lake, opt out. (Although they should expect R rules if it's registered as an R tournament...)

[lpskier]

@Drago Haven’t they set records in jump and trick at Callaway? 

[Fbris]

10 hours ago, Horton said:

The rules do not allow for that 

Which makes Nautique’s banning of Freddie for the following year even more ridiculous. The ONLY judge who could actually see what happened thought Freddie cleared buoy six yet Freddie not only lost out in 2022 but now Nautique seeks to punish Freddie further.  Did someone say something about Nautique’s Christian values earlier in this thread? 

[Drago]

2 hours ago, lpskier said:

@Drago Haven’t they set records in jump and trick at Callaway? 

Maybe. Pretty sure we're discussing SL here.

[rico]

Freddie being banned from Masters is not good for anyone (except for a few other skiers 🙂). The issue is a shore argument, and, there seem to be a lot of unofficial words on the topic, but no official statement. Banning a top skier from such a prestigious event should come with a public statement. Another unofficial version is that the officials were watching the video live which is not allowed under the current rule. 

Assuming there is a valid case for Freddie to be banned from Masters, maybe a warning or a fine could have been sufficient.

What I don't understand is the banning from LCQ tournaments where skiers not trying to qualify for Masters are allowed to ski.

Thoughts?

[lpskier]

@Drago your comment: “Imho, the Masters is an Old School pro event and it shouldn't be an R tournament. The lake can't operate within R rules, and why try?”

My answer: Because they set records in trick and jump. 

[Buxrus]

@rico “Thoughts”?   As I stated in an earlier post.  This is a consequence of our recent culture.   

10 years ago someone threatens someone in an argument or debate, NBD.   If you look at someone cross eyed these days you’re getting punched, sued or shot.   If you sneeze in a public place, folks scatter like cockroaches when a light is turned on.  If you say something in joking at work, your butt is fired.   

I do agree a public statement is in order.  This would eliminate all the speculation and offer insight as to the legitimacy of the ban. 

I do not get any indication this is sponsor driven.  In our small community that type of small thinking could damage sponsorship loyalty for years to come.  

 

[Wish]

Australian open 1990. McEnroe gets not 1 but 3 specific code of conduct violations before finally being disqualified for telling the umpire to go do something to his mother. Mac thought the line to cross was 4 code of conduct violation as it had been in the past to get disqualified. But he had not heard of the rule change to only 3. But at least he mostly knew the lines he was crossing as he crossed them. And he knew the outcomes if he did. Was Freddy warned? Given any smaller consequences before the final disqualification?

Mac is well known for his tantrums at the expense of the court officials over many many years and has only been disqualified the one time do to a rule change he was unaware of at the time.
 

I’m gonna bet Freddy  never came close to telling an official anything like that. One of the code violations was “racket abuse” yep, that was a written line of conduct code. So was “intimidating a line judge”.  Did Freddy slam his ski into the ground breaking it? Did he hover over and glare at an isolated seated judge that had no way out of that moment? 
 

Heated moments at the highest levels of tennis were expected and rules were written. Specific ones. 
 

[Horton]

@Drago

That is an insightful perspective. I believe that professional athletics should be seen as entertainment. A dirty Class F pro event is likely a good show.

The problem is that even if the Masters was Class F it is still seen as a prestigious event. As long as a Masters title is a live time achievement skiers will demand accurate officiating.

Frankly, I do not understand why the officials can't be in the proper positions. The cheapest boat Nautiuque sells retails for 150k. They can afford some scaffolding or a floating tower or whatever. If it is the most prestigious event of the year run it as a real R.

[aupatking]

@Wishand people watched him. A lot of people. Some controversy is good, some not. This thread has more viewers than the tournament will. 

@ricoI don’t understand the LCQ ban either. Wasn’t he already qualified, just banned from attending? They can’t remove the fact that he was qualified, so banning him from additional tournaments does what? Punishes him beyond the scope of the tournament. Seems like overreach. And those aren’t (officially) Nautique events, so you can’t blame Nautique for those. At least not directly 

[Drago]

@Horton I don't disagree with you. I've never been there, but certainly they can anchor a boat for a proper judges location...

Question-- do you think the officials' setup will be the same this year ?

[Stevie Boy]

Skiers, Skis, have improved and moved with the times, quite clearly the Masters Setup has not.

No improvements from the organisers, clearly they have not moved with the times, knowing the issues, they have not made any improvements, is it Lack of Funds, Lack of Interest or Lack of Know How.

Organisers at other Lakes are constantly looking to improve their setup, I have been to one lake and spent over a Hour in the water, because the Owner wanted all the bouys set at exactly the same height, boat lane included, it wasn't, a case of that will do, it had to be right.

Attention to Detail, makes a Good Experience for All.

As Others have pointed out, there are Solutions to overcome some of the issues at Robin Lake.

[Nater]

It kills me how folks in this thread are chiming in about the outcome of Freddy’s situation with what should have been done, was it fair or was it not fair etc. etc. ….when there has been no clear information or public statement from either party as to what actually occurred on or off camera.  Once that information is out then I think it’s fair for people to have at it on this forum.

[morfoot]

5 hours ago, Stevie Boy said:

Skiers and skiers have improved and moved with the times, quite clearly the Masters Setup has not.

No improvements from the organisers, clearly they have not moved with the times, knowing the issues, they have not made any improvements, is it Lack of Funds, Lack of Interest or Lack of Know How.

As Others have pointed out, there are Solutions to overcome some of the issues at Robin Lake.

 So apparently some of you did not listen to @Luzz WSP episodes with JT.  Matteo had a long discussion with JT  part 2 on the story that he, Zack Warden and Will Asher spent a few days fixing the course in Robin Lake in the middle of winter. 7mil wetsuits in 30'F air temps and spent DAYS shooting, mapping and installing a new course. It was a great podcast and I walked away from it with even more respect for those 2 guys. Give it a listen if you haven't, so those that are bashing the organizers in not trying to make improvements to the event are living in glass houses themselves and throwing rocks at others. Especially those who are bashing it and have NEVER been there. Granted it's not the best skiing conditions as the all the other tour stops but it is the one of the oldest tournaments around if not the oldest. Using the philosophy of some of you then I guess The Packers should build a new stadium and toss out Lambeau field because its outdated and old school. Same goes for the Cubs and Wrigley Field.

[disland]

A few years back I was the guy in the floating tower holding the camera for the gates. Fun job. Got the best view of some awesome skiing. A far as the judges view. Its just as good as any tower at any lake per the rules. Its also in exactly the right place by class R rules. The problem is not the site. The problem is the same for any site. The spray goes up and blocks the view of the buoy. Only the boat judge can see. The other shore judge is at the other end of the lake and that is pretty far. Thats why there is supposed to be video from the boat. The video failed. I agree with Horton. Failure of equipment, gets a reride. Anyway thats old news. The current news is why a ban. Our new PC world is BS and if we let those types run our world we will all be worse for it. There is no doubt the Masters tournament is worse for it today.

[jcamp]

5 hours ago, disland said:

Our new PC world is BS and if we let those types run our world we will all be worse for it. There is no doubt the Masters tournament is worse for it today.

How can you come to that conclusion without knowing what Freddie is accused of doing? 

[disland]

19 minutes ago, jcamp said:

How can you come to that conclusion without knowing what Freddie is accused of doing? 

Fair, my comment is based on reports from others, and thus withdrawn

[B_S]

This thread reminds of that old REO Speedwagon song Take It on the Run.

[aupatking]

@Nater some of the info is not for the public to see. At least not currently 

[Drago]

@Nater" (by what I've read on this thread)"

[Wish]

@Naterfolks that think speculation or educated guesses are beneath talking about must not be married or have children or coworkers or had siblings growing up. 😂 It happens daily. It’s part the the human makeup. Maybe some of this banter will flush out an official response(s). 

[6balls]

@wish, who would be (Nautique or Freddie) motivated to provide such response and why?  Just to clear up speculation for this small, merry band of outlaws speculating on BOS?  We goofy amateurs are likely not that important. 

I just binge read most of this thread and won't be spending more time on it.  If Freddie or Nautique wanted to speak to this forum I suspect it would have happened by now--or perhaps that is jut my own form of speculation.  It seems this poor horse is getting it's arse kicked with zero new info to change the narrative.   

[Wish]

@6balls I did say Maybe 😉

[Horton]

Look guys it is not rocket surgery. Freddie seems to have rounded 6 but was scored 5.  The judges seem to have followed the rules to the letter but the tech let them down. Freddie then protested passionately. He did not make fists or threaten or use vulgar language.  He did raise his voice and was insistent. Someone decided that the protest was a step too far. Nautique is not allowing Freddie to ski Masters or the qualifiers.  In the last year IWWF went as far as a formal review. 

Those are the broad strokes.

There are plenty of questions. Did Freddie's protest constitute unsportsmanlike conduct? Did Freddie's history of calling IWWF out when past dubious decisions were made bias the actions? Is there a precedent for IWWF investigating similar incidents?  Does Nautique's sponsorship of IWWF bias the actions?  And so on... 

[UCFskier]

On 5/9/2023 at 6:59 PM, Horton said:

The rules do not allow for that 

how can you provide a score if you admit you could not see what happened?

[ral]

@UCFskier, the rules were posted in this thread. 

[skialex]

@Horton A poll would’ve been a good idea, who of us ballers wants to see Freddie competing this year’s Masters. We, most of us are old farts but as a unity we mater for the sport…

come on people at Nautique and Freddie, talk this out… it will only be good for the sport we all love…

[Horton]

@skialex

feel free to create a poll

[TonyLightfoot]

On 5/9/2023 at 3:39 PM, Jody_Seal said:

The US Masters is a professionally run towed water sports event. every one involved in the production and site personnel ( judges, drivers, secondary personal on down to the safety personnel) are paid or  employed by callaway and Nautique Boats. this might be hard for many of you but Mr Lightfoot has been the announcer for the masters a number years ago. bottom line he did not do a good job and was not and has not been asked to come back. the video production crew at the masters do a very hard job and imop have a very successful track record for the Masters.

Nope, never announced the Masters. Had an offer to do it in early 2010 but it was recinded 2 weeks later. My point of contact told me that the Chief Judge had some beef with me and asked me, by way of courtesy, if I was willing to recommend someone else in place of me. I recommended Tyler Boyd to announce alongside Tadd Schreiber. Tadd hung up the mic several years while Tyler continues to work the Masters to this day.

[Drago]

Getting weirder by the day: the Chief Judge can ban an announcer?

[Andre]

1 hour ago, TonyLightfoot said:

Nope, never announced the Masters. Had an offer to do it in early 2010 but it was recinded 2 weeks later. My point of contact told me that the Chief Judge had some beef with me and asked me, by way of courtesy, if I was willing to recommend someone else in place of me. I recommended Tyler Boyd to announce alongside Tadd Schreiber. Tadd hung up the mic several years while Tyler continues to work the Masters to this day.

Love your work Tony and all the TWBC hard work to give us such high quality webcast! Hats off to you and all the crew @TWBC ! Thanks so much!

[dvskier]

@TonyLightfoot TWBC is the gold standard in water sports broadcasting, you are light years ahead of your competition.

[TonyLightfoot]

1 hour ago, Drago said:

Getting weirder by the day: the Chief Judge can ban an announcer?

Yep. 

[vtmecheng]

There you go, Nautique decision. 

[Jordan]

Anyone think that Nautique would have taken the same action against Nate? 

[skibackwards]

THE END !

 

[dave2ball]

@Jordan yes. 

[BraceMaker]

55 minutes ago, dave2ball said:

@Jordan yes. 

Uhhhh no.

They dropped his sponsorship LOOOOONG after the accusations and only after a safesport related sanction and its not like he doesn't have access to Nautique sponsorship through a dealer network affiliate.

Are we not thinking that it'd be pretty easy to provide a boat through your dealer network hell 2 boats a year is a full time salary for a waterskier and then a good bit.

 

[dave2ball]

@BraceMaker that does not mean Nautique would not ban Nate if he was in Freddie shoes.  I fully realize that Nate is not sponsored by the factory. And that a dealer could give him a boat. But that does not mean The masters /Nautique would not ban him under the same circumstances. Not quite sure what you are getting  at

[BraceMaker]

The windmill I am tilting at is that as a sport it sure feels like the event is owned by Nautique and not an independent event brought to you by Nautique.

There have certainly been instances of "high tempers" during events previously that didn't generate disqualification from future events.  Headlights and rerides at a Big Dawg event comes to mind and if I recall the history this generated long delays in the event and no disqualifications from future events.

 

Or another question I suppose is for you @dave2ball how many examples are there of a skier being disqualified in the history of the sport?  Maybe this is just a sport where it is extremely rare for people to have a temper whatsoever at the judges.... but off hand I'm not sure there is a precedent for this.

[dave2ball]

@BraceMaker Nautique does own the masters. How it is tied to the IWFF I really don’t know. Masters are not part of the tour points. 
other then Jim Michaels who was not only disqualified  but banned from the sport for cheating  this Freddie issue is the first I can remember.  The details of the Michaels incident was released. Why no statement from Nautique  I have no clue other then they feel it’s nobody’s business other then the party’s involved including the judges. 
this whole thread is all speculation of what happened. Other then Freddie’s comments that were posted which really said nothing other then his disappointment of not being included this year there is nothing out there for reliable  information. 
was this a Nautique only decision? It was it the judges?    Hard to say. Freddie was able to ski Moomba which was a Nautique event. 
I do believe if any Nautique team skier was in the same circumstances the same result would occur and even  further action taken. 
 

[rogerw]

20 hours ago, TonyLightfoot said:

Nope, never announced the Masters. Had an offer to do it in early 2010 but it was recinded 2 weeks later. My point of contact told me that the Chief Judge had some beef with me and asked me, by way of courtesy, if I was willing to recommend someone else in place of me. I recommended Tyler Boyd to announce alongside Tadd Schreiber. Tadd hung up the mic several years while Tyler continues to work the Masters to this day.

Your presentation and enthusiasm for the sport is fantastic Tony. 

Their loss...

 

 

[foxriverat]

@dave2ball if you reread Fred's comment above. He said there was no name calling or threats.

[Wish]

I feel like those that are actually in the know first hand were made to keep quiet in some way. Overtly felt threatened? Too nervous to lose their position with the Masters? Just speculation. But it is odd. 

[dave2ball]

@foxriverat I have read it. Nautique may of felt felt otherwise.  There are 3 sides to this story. Nautiques  version Freddie’s version and what really happened. 

Freddie  is a professional. He has sponsors to answer to. I really don’t think he would put out a controversial statement.  Regardless of what occurred. 

[bojans]

 

[dvskier]

10 minutes ago, bojans said:

 

@bojans Perfect response!