Nautique Banning Freddy Winter From Masters

[scoke]

@rockdog

 

After further investigation, the OP is not a shill but, young and naïve. Probably more likely a fangirl. 

 

Might work for mastercraft or is an orlando skier too.

 

But otherwise, 6,000 views of 1 thread in 5 days!! wowsas! 

THE CLICKING BUSINESS IS GOOD!

Edited May 3, 2023 by scoke
typos yo!

[BraceMaker]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

I believe you added an extra "0" to the camera investment.  Non the less, its still a sizable investment.

He may not have... its certainly not an 8K$ camera, it might be 40 or 80K  but not 8.

[lpskier]

@Kelvin $80,000 is the number I was told by a member of the TWBC crew. He may be mistaken, but that’s the number I was told. Hefty if accurate.  Even if just $8000 that’s a lot of dough for one camera. 

[BraceMaker]

@lpskier no you're correct.  The brand RED Digital very much has 80K$ cameras.

At the low end if they're buying professional level cameras like that it might be 25/30K but it could easily be 80.  Particularly if they're remotely operated units.

[ForrestGump]

At the end of the day, everyone here is just speculating.  Because no one knows(or is willing to say) what exactly Freddy said.  I know that had it been me, there would have been some discussions of them being bovine fornicators with their brain case inside their rectums.  But that's just me.  Is a ban justified? Horton should probably ban me, yes.  But Freddy? None of us can tell because we don't have any real data one way or the other.  

[ForrestGump]

FWIW our creative team where I work just bought a Red vRaptor.  Which was $28k for the body, no lenses.  Just so happens I was in a production meeting for a big event where they were detailing their investments and I thought "F me, that's no polaroid!"

 

[Horton]

@ForrestGump Yeah my guess is that Fred said some words he should not have. I do not condone that but I understand it.  My point all along has been that at the biggest event of the year the equipment or the officiating failed and I understand his frustration. 

We (amateur and pros alike) pour our lives into this sport. It is painfully common for a skier to spend months preparing & stupid amount of money for an event only to have poor officiating/ driving/other preventable disadvantage and then be told "tough luck".      

[ForrestGump]

I don't disagree with you one bit on any of those points.  

 

[Horton]

My last post makes it sound like Freddie used inappropriate language. I have heard from more than one person who was there that he did not.    

[mike_mapple]

23 hours ago, BraceMaker said:

He may not have... its certainly not an 8K$ camera, it might be 40 or 80K  but not 8.

https://www.red.com/v-raptor-xl-black?quantity=1&vxlpackage=4

that's 50k alone right there, not including what ever extra mounts / set up needed.

[UCFskier]

5 hours ago, mike_mapple said:

https://www.red.com/v-raptor-xl-black?quantity=1&vxlpackage=4

that's 50k alone right there, not including what ever extra mounts / set up needed.

was the issue that the image was low resolution, or that it did not pan quick enough to catch the turn?  will this pan quicker?

and (for argument sakes) if they believe they need to upgrade equipment this year would it not suggest a conclusion that the previous years equipment was faulty? 

[Wish]

Did not pan quick enough. Got behind him and missed when the ski and the ball were at their closest

[Drago]

6 hours ago, UCFskier said:

was the issue that the image was low resolution, or that it did not pan quick enough to catch the turn?  will this pan quicker?

and (for argument sakes) if they believe they need to upgrade equipment this year would it not suggest a conclusion that the previous years equipment was faulty? 

@UCFskier the point is TWBC was not at the Masters

[ScottScott]

I think we're sidetracked a little on this $80k camera. TWBC puts good money into providing an ever increasing quality broadcast. While that level of camera will potentially provide a clarity that could make a difference in some video review situations, that type money isn't necessary to provide BETTER video coverage for judging. 

[LeonL]

Yeah, let's not confuse the ability of TWBC to provide excellent views with the need for the sponsoring entity to ultimately be responsible for having sufficient viewing angles and/or proper camera views.

[Horton]

@LeonL 

I'm not sure what your point of view is, but let me clarify mine. when TWBC is the official video of an event, not only do we have high res and high frame rate video, but we have trained video personnel running the cameras. The result is the official video record is very high quality. This means that video review can be much more definitive.

I can't even begin to name the number of bullshit scores at the highest levels of sport that would have been different if TWBC had been the video source of record.

[Taynton]

There is a lot of discussion on cameras judges rules etc. The REAL issue is Freddy's reaction and subsequent ban. If he did violate the code of conduct (assuming there is one). I think Nautique needs to clarify the code of conduct violation and specifically disclose the reasoning behind the ban, in my opinion this is the only debatable issue here and it would clear up alot of the speculation on sponsor bias etc.

[lpskier]

There is no question that when TWBC is at an event, the likelihood of a bad call effecting the outcome is significantly reduced. The question is do tournaments need a $20,000 plus solution to the problem.  Would the athletes prefer TWBC or an extra $20k in the purse? I don’t know the answer to that one. 
 

Granted, the Masters isn’t just any pro event, and they do pay someone for video. 

[Wish]

@Taynton I’ve posted the same question..twice. Let’s see the written line he crossed. If there is no such code of conduct written out or specified verbally to all the athletes, then event rules are made up on the fly and are ripe for abuse of power. 

[Taynton]

@wish Yes, exactly. As I have never even attended a pro event (something I hope to correct this season) I don't have the exposure, resources or the knowledge to find the answer to this, maybe someone will know.. nudge @Horton   

That being said I have competed at a very high level in many different sports and I can assure you there is never enough rules and regulations to make ANY sport completely fair. This is an issue with competition in general and there is no way to avoid it completely.  If there is a competition there will be someone who feels like they got shafted no-matter-what. Parents of multiple children will confirm this..

[aupatking]

I’ve spoken with both firsthand and reliable secondhand sources. Both giving opposing accounts of what actually occurred. Given the firsthand versus secondhand nature, I have to believe the more directly related of the two sources: that is that his response was well within what should be EXPECTED of someone who’s living is being effected and that no “line” was actually crossed. If there is a conduct rule for this particular event that was broken, that would clarify the reason for the ban but I don’t believe that is the case.

What I do see here is “The Masters” has made its own tournament even more irrelevant in the eyes of the water skiing world.

Again, totally unnecessarily and totally preventable with even reasonably priced equipment. This seems, to me, not up to the standards we, and definitely not the professional skiers, should expect from what should be considered a pinnacle event.

Edited May 6, 2023 by aupatking
Bad grammar

[Stewpro]

Bullfrog Lake Mentality along with new owners and managers of Nautique having failed at making a true  performer ski boat ( that looks like an old Glastron as well ) simply shifting attention to failures of the rank in files and athletes to hide their own inability to make the right calls and turning a profit with , wait for it ........ The Sledge Hammer !!! But we're still growing the sport , right ?  Pathetic ......

[Buxrus]

@Stewpro  WHAT???   So we’ve gone from Freddie being banned, NO real reason as to why, TWBC is the bomb and they should video all pro tournaments, (they are the bomb I agree) to now SNCC not offering a competitive ski boat and its ugly.  

I would suggest we are officially “off topic”.  

I am not sure why folks are hesitant to post an explanation of what was said and what was observed?   There is NO way that someone on this site was not present at the event and was close enough to eye witness the situation and hear the “discussion”.   Starting docks are typically over crowded with folks, someone knows.  

Or here’s even a better idea; how about a statement from the man himself, the governing body of SN or the officials who made the call and subsequent ban.   

Typically when a professional athlete is suspended or banned, that individual typically holds a presser, apologizing, offering an explanation, etc.   Same could apply here.   

Here’s my final option of what “could have happened.”  Our culture has turned into a hypersensitive society.   (Being very kind and careful).   So what was said in the heat of battle or debate, could have been perceived as a threat or hyper aggressive response directed toward a person or persons who got their feelings hurt.  (Oh No!!! Boo hoo).   Five years ago, something like this happens, nothing, notta……hit the showers, cool off.  Next day all is good.   Today’s world………yeah.   

[liquid d]

I wasn't there...and of course it's not on film...but Freddy may just want this to go away. We all have bad days, or fly off the handle, and I know I sure wouldn't want a "worst moment" of mine dissected in public if I did. I'd want to move on to the other 99% of my life.  Whatever happened is over, and the decision won't be changed. My guess if he offended a few people, he's probably made amends privately, and the best course is let it die...and of course get out to King of Darkness Today!

[auskier]

The gimbal, transmission and camera unit TWBC is using this season is a DJI Ronin unit. 

https://store.dji.com/au/product/dji-ronin-4d?vid=107481

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@liquid d being a voice of reason?!?!?  OMG the world IS going to end in 12 years!!!!

[Drago]

10 minutes ago, Bruce_Butterfield said:

@liquid d being a voice of reason?!?!?  OMG the world IS going to end in 12 years!!!!

100%

[Jody_Seal]

That's what a good shortstop does! 

[Jordan]

Interestingly, at the Swiss Pro Slalom the aren't even using a camera guy in the boat. The camera is mounted on the windshield. Not sure how it works, but it has never had a skier get out of frame. If that system had been used at the Masters, the whole issue with Freddie wouldn't have happened.

Great job TWBC! 

[jimski]

Maybe it’s just me, but watching Freddie ski in tournaments brings the excitement that keeps me wanting more.

great skiing today.

 

[lpskier]

@Jordan It’s operated remotely. And the shore camera used for interviews and crowd shots is on a pretty sophisticated and nifty gimbal. No shortage of cool camera gear. 
 

Fun fact: We have talked about how good the TWBC camera work is and how hard it is to get a wrong call. In every case today that I witnessed where the camera was used to correct a call, the skier’s score was reduced from the live call made by the judges. 
 

 

[ScottScott]

I think its been touched on a little earlier in the thread, but I think (related to @lpskier post above) one of the primary failures at Masters, beyond the technical (both camera and tower judge locations,) was that with a lack of better information the benefit of doubt should have gone toward the skier.

[Horton]

@ScottScott

that is not the way the IWWF rules are written

[ral]

Supporting what @Horton states, the word “doubt” appears in IWWF’s rules only applying to skier nationaility and site homologation. 
 

 

[RAWSki]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:50 AM, Buxrus said:

Here’s my final option of what “could have happened.”  Our culture has turned into a hypersensitive society.   (Being very kind and careful).   So what was said in the heat of battle or debate, could have been perceived as a threat or hyper aggressive response directed toward a person or persons who got their feelings hurt.  (Oh No!!! Boo hoo).   Five years ago, something like this happens, nothing, notta……hit the showers, cool off.  Next day all is good.   Today’s world………yeah.   

 

Interestingly 5-7 years ago this did happen and it involved the same skier.  I was there, I didn't see FW out of line but I saw him running dripping wet up to the tower to appeal, after 8-10 minutes (which seems like forever). Freddy was granted a re-ride.  Maybe this was in his subconscious as it all happened again but the call was made differently this time....... Perhaps it got a little heated and a misunderstanding of procedure and conduct ensued.

My question is why this decision wasn't announced 30 - 60 days after the 2022 event?  Making the call just as the '23 qualifying events kick off seems completely out of line for a quality event like the Masters.  I will be there again this year supporting the sport.   Freddy will be missed,  we always want the best skiers on the water.  

[Horton]

I have been doing some digging for a possible DFC episode about this. A key point that has not been made clear is that Freddie's protest was very passionate but not threatening or vulgar. 

[Horton]

@RAWSki

I believe that Freddie's exclusion from the 2023 Masters was decided last year. It just did not get talked about on the internet until recently. 

[VONMAN]

Wow, sorry about rolling the hand grenade into the room!! I haven't been in the Forum since my last post. Great Info.

[Horton]

@VONMAN Twice a day please. 

[Stevie Boy]

Ok so Freddie has been Banned from the Masters, for what ever reason, moving on, why the ban on other Nautique Events for him, by the way The King Of Darkness Event was spot on and the Mastercraft performed and looked Awsome , would love to see more of the Mastercraft, it's a Great Boat to drive and ski behind.

[Horton]

The thing that should come out of this is an edit to the rules. If the official tournament video is needed to verify the score and is inconclusive then it will be treated as if the ZeroOff failed or the SurePath Failed or the boat path was out.

[ral]

As per IWWF’s rules, video is reviewed only if the single judge looking at the video feed disagrees with the call by the other judges (boat and tower)  

“When boat video is used, the boat video will be monitored on the tower by another Judge who will advise the Chief Judge if he disagrees with the event Judges decision. In which case the Chief Judge and the review Judge will again review the video file to determine which score is correct.”
 

if the video judge cannot see the the buoy because of a malfunction or a blocking head, he cannot state his disagreement. The other tower judges should not use video for their live judgement. 

For the video challenge protest,  “If they [the two review judges] disagree or agree that the video does not clearly overrule the score given by the Judges, then that score will stand.”  In this case, for sure the video does not clearly overrule the given score. 

[aupatking]

11 hours ago, Horton said:

I have been doing some digging for a possible DFC episode about this. A key point that has not been made clear is that Freddie's protest was very passionate but not threatening or vulgar. 

@Hortonthat really is the problem, because that is EXACTLY what is being said. 

And it didn’t happen. I’m not calling the people who have told me otherwise liars. Definitely not. I’ve heard this from people I respect but, I’m quite certain they’re sources are either lying or supporting a lie. 

Also, something I think I missed, or misunderstood, is this just a Masters ban, or all Nautique events?

Edited May 9, 2023 by aupatking

[skierjp]

The IWWF has Rules Of Conduct. Just sayin

[jcamp]

I am amazed at how many people have formed an opinion on this issue - on both sides of it - without knowing all or in some cases any of the details ... 

[dave2ball]

@jcamp I’m not amazed at all.  Many readers/posters want to chastise Nautique without knowing all facts and basing their opinion on what they saw on video close to a year ago. Did Freddie sign a code of conduct  release?  I personally have no idea nor do I know if it was justified to not let him ski. . What I can say about the situation is that it’s a shame Freddie won’t be apart of this years Masters.  There are issues that occurred behind the scenes that maybe .5% people know about and have stayed silent because they are smarter than the average bear. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by dave2ball

[Jody_Seal]

here's my take. I can tell all that the decisions pertaining to a one year sit out was not taken lightly by the officials and title sponsors of the US Masters. these officials are some of the best in the world. these officials take pride in the work they do so somewhere there is merit to their decision in their assessment and final decision as well as recommendations by the title sponsors.

most of you have never been to Robin lake so your Chrystal palace anal ideology about how tournaments are run as well as playing field acutraments are far from your glass house tournament site that many of you live in. where the slalom course is on Robin lake  resides in nearly 30 foot of water. bottom anchored. the site only allows for a static gate camera on one side of the course. due to the distance to the far bank a human has to sit in a floating judges tower and videos manually the entrance gate, keeping that person awake in 100 degree Georgia spring can be a true chore. rock walls and rip wrap encircle nearly 2/3 thirds of the lake Making it a very rolling dicey encounter for both drivers and skiers.

The US Masters is a professionally run towed water sports event. every one involved in the production and site personnel ( judges, drivers, secondary personal on down to the safety personnel) are paid or  employed by callaway and Nautique Boats. this might be hard for many of you but Mr Lightfoot has been the announcer for the masters a number years ago. bottom line he did not do a good job and was not and has not been asked to come back. the video production crew at the masters do a very hard job and imop have a very successful track record for the Masters.

I retired from working almost 30 masters and have seen the event change, morph or whatever one wants to call it into a well oiled machine.  Roni has done an excellent job of putting all of it together.  hats off to all the masters crew. keep up the great work!

 

on another note I do think that the sit down athlete should still have the opportunity to ski and post scores in any off masters site lcq record tournaments . who knows he might break the world record! 

I think Liquid-D has the best response. 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Jody_Seal

[Horton]

@skierjp Yes the "Code of Conduct" vague. 

1.07: Unsportsmanlike Conduct Any competitor (or his representative) or official whose conduct is deemed unsportsmanlike or whose conduct may cause discredit to the IWWF, either on or off the competition site, before, during, or after the competition, may be disqualified from all or part of the competition including completed events by a two thirds (2/3) majority vote of the Appointed Judges. The affected individual will be given an opportunity to present his case before a disqualification decision is made. In the case of a finding of unsportsmanlike conduct, a report must be submitted by the Chief Judge to the Chairman of the World Waterski Council.

[Stevie Boy]

If a Top Competitor is denied the chance to compete, then it devalues the Event, if you win a event and the field was restricted, to a lot of top competitors, it is not classified as a win, to be the Best you have to beat the Rest.

Words are just Words, if somebody strikes somebody, physically threatens, or verbally threatens somebody, that's a whole different world.

On Reflection maybe six of one and six of the other.

 

The whole thing, just does not help the Sport, saddened by the whole thing, it seems the Masters is one of those events, that just cannot get it right, always some sort of controversy.

[Jody_Seal]

@Hortonson you are missing one thing!! important thing!! 

The Masters is a professional athletic event ! they awward money to the winners of the event!!! they The US Masters/ Nautique and Callaway write the checks!!!                               

IWWF DOES NOT!

 

"The Masters Waits for no one."