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Nautique Banning Freddy Winter From Masters


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@morfoot and @pdolas a couple of things that you mentiond need addressing.  First,  the rules are clear on such decisions.  The judges majority rules.  Second, there is no allowance for a re-ride in such a situation.  I have no idea as to whether the correct call was made, just clarifying that the options you put forth are not in accord with the rules.

As to the fallout currently discussed, it seems totally wrong for a sponsor to be able to make such a call.  This action should lie totally with the sanctioning body.  I haven't seen the official wording (don't know if anyone other than the principals have) but I'd like to.

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Let’s assume that @horton is correct that the “tower” judges were calling buoys by watching boat video. (That is also what I heard, but I wasn’t there, either.) if that is the case, and the video missed Freddie’s six ball at -39, and the judges made a call based on what they saw or in this case what they were unable to see, @LeonL, in my mind that is a failure of tournament supplied equipment, which is the basis for a reride with a protected score. 
 

 

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Lpskier

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Everyone, except a few, has focused on everything but what Freddie did.  There is a set of facts where everyone would agree Freddie should be banned.  For example, he pulled a gun and demanded the judges modify the score.  Contrast that to, him saying nothing more than "I deserve a reride".  Until the facts are known, in terms of what he did, the discussions about manufacturers, other skiers, etc. is nonsense.  Folks attempting to justify his actions, without knowing what he did, is similarly nonsensical.

Freddie can come out and say what he did.  Perhaps he believes he should be banned.  I do not know.  I only know him through social media, and he seems like a great guy.  If he comes out and says "I messed up, I deserve a ban", he will still be a good guy.  Everyone has bad days.

 

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Talked with a couple of people who were there and things got a bit more heated behind the scenes no details given but from what I was told  Nautique would of taken action on ANY athlete  Nautique sponsored or not.  
 

hopefully Freddie will be reinstated next year.  

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@Interjon  thank you, thank you.  The antecedent circumstance is known, the resultant behavior has not been documented/explained or clarified.   It’s hard to believe that someone didn’t observe the “discussion” that took place following the 5 buoy call.  

Starting docks are full of volunteers, observers, skiers in wait, etc.   Someone was there first person or even the man himself was obviously there.   Until this is known, all other discussion is irrelevant.  (Him missing 6 or getting 6 and having it taken away is not why he’s banned). 

 

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@Horton  The Winter Garden LCQ is my invitation only, and a closed tournament.  They can invite who they want.  The second LCQ is at Travers, and that tournament is open to other skiers, including club members.  I have a real problem when a manufacturer can dictate to a local organizer who to ban from a tournament.  

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13 hours ago, kmenard said:

@UWSkier... Like the rose bowl? Are you sure you aren't UofA skier? 

Not to derail the thread, but I love the Rose Bowl and all it USED to stand for back when my Badgers were winning them regularly.  But the CFP has devalued it so much, it's not even broadcast over the air anymore.

Masters waterski is kindof like that.  As a fan, there are more interesting events IMO.  Swiss, Travers, Bu Open, Lake 38, Jollyski, all more interesting as a fan.

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13 minutes ago, BS74 said:

@Horton  The Winter Garden LCQ is my invitation only, and a closed tournament.  They can invite who they want.  The second LCQ is at Travers, and that tournament is open to other skiers, including club members.  I have a real problem when a manufacturer can dictate to a local organizer who to ban from a tournament.  

I didn't see where it was invite only? Just like all the LCQ you have to meet the qualifying scores? I could be wrong, but that's kind of the point of the LCQ right?

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To ski the LCQ  must have a certain OM average or ranking.  Which may give an invite to ski  

i believe Travers LCQ has the same guidelines which are set by Nautique.  

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I am sure there is a lot going on behind the scenes and various communications being made to the IWWF,with this in mind it is unlikely the people involved will come forward and make any form of statement, the question is will the IWWF review events and act in a positive, fair and unbias way without being influenced by a outside party.

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So 2 tower Judges were watching live video from the boat and because the camera missed the shot. Both camera's I might add. What's the point of the tower Judges if they are not watching the action from their point of view, not video?? At that point it should have been called a re-ride.

At that point the only only two people knew what really happened the boat Judge and Freddie. Call a re-ride admit the mistake and move on. But no, the Masters can't be at fault. We will just pretend it didn't happen, it will be OK.

We as skiers love to watch these Great Skiers excel at the top of the mountain, wishing we could only achieve 50% of what they do. The training that they endure because of the love of the sport we all have. Only to be called out by a group of skiers with far less knowledge and experience that had one thing to do, watch the Skier and report the score.

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Ernie Schlager

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Link to last year's officials:

https://usawaterski.org/rankings/view-tournaments_usa.asp?pvar=TourInfo&TourID=22S091&olrds=enabled&rg=6&sl=on&tr=on&ju=on&wb=&ws=&wu=&bf=&kb=&hy=&sExclude=

Pretty much an allstar list of officials.  Rhoni's career speaks for itself, I note an ACJ for 2021 worlds, a USAWS Distinction Award recipient, among other highly respected officials.  I wasn't there, didn't see, and can't tell from video, but I have confidence that the rules were followed in light of the judges' perspectives and calls.  

No doubt stinks for Freddie and us as spectators, but I can't subscribe to a conspiracy.  Call me naive.  

Edited by buechsr
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@VONMAN full disclosure - that might be the detail I got wrong in the above episode of DFC. I have heard conflicting accounts about if the judges were looking at a screen or looking at Fred live.  Either way - the reports seem clear that the judges were sure he rounded 5 but were unclear about 6 so they requested review video. The boat video camera was tracking left and behind Fred so the video never had Fred and the ball in the frame at the same time. Under review the video was basically useless. A key point is that the boat judge, who was the only judge with a good view, scored Fred 6. 

So there are really two issue here. 

First is how the video failed and how the officials handled it. Something else I have changed my mind on since making the above DFC video is if it was ok to let Fred sit in the water so long. If they had taken 5+ minutes to make a decision and then agreed on 6 they were  still disadvantaging him because he was no longer warm and likely stressed. That is wrong. The officiating mistakes here are many.

The second issue is how Fred handled it. Fred is a friend so I am biased. There are  people who I respect & who were there that say he was not out of line and others that say he was way out of line.  

The bottom line is that officials and/or the tournament equipment at the biggest event of the year failed and the skier who was wronged was basically told to "just suck it up". Slalom skiing is Fred's passion and occupation. I wound have been shocked if he had just taken his lumps and gone home. 

Instances like this seem a bit too common across the sport. A clearly bad call or injustice happens at a major event (amateur or pro) and the skier is basically told try again next year.  

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1 hour ago, Horton said:

@VONMAN full disclosure - that might be the detail I got wrong in the above episode of DFC. I have heard conflicting accounts about if the judges were looking at a screen or looking at Fred live.  Either way - the reports seem clear that the judges were sure he rounded 5 but were unclear about 6 so they requested review video. The boat video camera was tracking left and behind Fred so the video never had Fred and the ball in the frame at the same time. Under review the video was basically useless. A key point is that the boat judge, who was the only judge with a good view, scored Fred 6. 

So there are really two issue here. 

First is how the video failed and how the officials handled it. Something else I have changed my mind on since making the above DFC video is if it was ok to let Fred sit in the water so long. If they had taken 5+ minutes to make a decision and then agreed on 6 they were  still disadvantaging him because he was no longer warm and likely stressed. That is wrong. The officiating mistakes here are many.

The second issue is how Fred handled it. Fred is a friend so I am biased. There are  people who I respect & who were there that say he was not out of line and others that say he was way out of line.  

The bottom line is that officials and/or the tournament equipment at the biggest event of the year failed and the skier who was wronged was basically told to "just suck it up". Slalom skiing is Fred's passion and occupation. I wound have been shocked if he had just taken his lumps and gone home. 

Instances like this seem a bit too common across the sport. A clearly bad call or injustice happens at a major event (amateur or pro) and the skier is basically told try again next year.  

From my perspective, a cheap one, IF the call from the towers were bad calls (and I've yet to see any video proving they were), then that's unfortunate, but not an injustice unless the rules were not followed.  

(In addition to several others depending on angle/site/configuration) IWWF Rule 8.13 d says:

"When boat video is used, the boat video will be monitored on the tower by another Judge who will advise the Chief Judge if he disagrees with the event Judges decision. In which case the Chief Judge and the review Judge will again review the video file to determine which score is correct. If they both agree on a score, that will be the given score. If they disagree or agree that the video does not clearly overrule the score given by the Judges, then that score will stand."

It seems apparent that the tower judges (however many there were) (at least enough to overrule BJ per Horton) called 5.  Maybe its a bad call (by multiple judges), maybe not.  But the video was obviously insufficient to overrule the scored 5.  Unfortunate, but it's not like he got called 5 based on the (bad) video, there just wasn't enough evidence to change it to 6, it would appear, if the rule was followed.

Freddie's score didn't just affect Freddie, it affected the rest of the field, particularly JT.  Again, call me naive but I trust that the judges tried to do their best to make an accurate call.  And yes I realize JT is obviously a Nautique skier but I still trust that panel of judges to call it as they see it.  

I have no opinion on whether Freddie should or shouldn't be allowed to ski this year, but I'd like to have seen him.

  

Edited by buechsr
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Yeah, the other side of the story is what would have happened if a reride had been granted. It seems like the last few years have resulted in controversy at the Masters and other pro events with protests and counter protests. It could be that in the moment the call was based in part on avoiding a larger controversy. 
 

if the judges called five, the rule clearly states that the call stands unless video review clearly shows a different outcome. If the judges called five, the video apparently was not clear, so strict application of the rule means that five stands. 
 

If the judges said “I can’t call six, I have to look at video,” then the rule would not apply because there was no call. 
 

So the first critical unknown is “What was the original call.”

The second unknown is whether Freddie actually challenged the call in the manner required. That requires posting  $250 under IWWF rules. Did Fred post the $250? I don’t know, but if I’m a pro skier at the masters, $250 in my board shorts pocket is part of my equipment. But maybe he didn’t have it. 
 

if he didn’t have the $$ and the score was changed, or if the judges called five (as opposed to no call) then if the judges took steps to “correct” the score or even grant a reride, and Freddie went on to qualify for the finals, whoever was bumped probably would have filed a protest for failure of the event judges and chief judge to follow the rules. There might well be merit in that protest if the judges ignored the express language of the rule to get a more user friendly outcome. 
 

It could be that the final outcome was a “lesser of two evils” decision. 
 

FYI, Nikki Lee, the Pan Am judge,  is about as squared away as a judge can be. She truly knows her stuff. Not to imply that any of the other judges are any less skilled and qualified. Nikki just stands out as a great in my book. 

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Far better to stand up for what you believe to be right than kowtow to the corporate silliness.  

be steadfast in knowing you were right and take the entry fees and enjoy a trip.  get lots of photos and have your sponsors run an ad saying what I did with my ban week.

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From my perspective as a Judge when you have video, you need to make a call as if there was no video. Then video review can overrule it.  I have been a judge and video review judge on a couple of cash pro events.  When tower judge, I would make the call, then suggest a video review if I was  not 100% certain.  At the Masters, the judges should have made a call, then without video that call correct or not would have to stand. 

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@Dragoi think you are right, and point is the actual problem here, that nothing about the setup for judging or video is in the right place. Just because “everyone knows it” doesn’t give an excuse for not fixing it. The judges position may not be able to change but today’s cameras, even inexpensive ones, can be placed where they need to be to rectify this issue. And for this tournament, it shouldn’t be an issue.
It truly is a shame, on both sides. I get the anger, especially for someone who’s living is on the line but none of the judges caused the problem that reared it’s ugly head. 
This was a 100% (well maybe 95%) preventable outcome. That’s where the site/TC/someone (you tell me who) should have rectified the “known issue”. We all know the place is less optimal than todays tournament lakes but a very small amount of tech should have made this one a non-issue a few years ago. This course doesn’t even have to be RC for this tournament, but it is supposed to be fair for all.  Come on though, “everyone has to deal with the exact same non verifiable buoy” is a pretty piss-poor reasoning for not fixing it. 

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1 minute ago, Horton said:

@aupatking TWBC

@Horton I meant to throw that in there.  Hell, my company can provide a 400 Gig fiber connection and all stack and access points so they don’t have to lay 10 miles of cable. I’ve been trying to pitch this to my CEO (former jr skier). For some reason, he doesn’t see the financial upside 🤔

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@Horton Agree, I was tower judge at the Malibu Open one year, and 5 ball was in the shadows at Trophy Lakes. The skier rounded 5 ball, or did he? We reviewed using the "official video", and we both called it wrong. A simple review of the TWBC footage revealed the correct call. If TWBC had been there, we wouldn't have this mess. Maybe Masters can get some better camera angles, or a drone; something. It is all easy enough today.

 

I hate it for Freddie, Nautique, and the wonderful Masters tournament. Just gotta get the calls right, and be able to verify. 

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Lots of valid points, I am sure people are saying "I Wish That" or "If Only" but regardless of the outcome, Right or Wrong, why did the Officials knowing that the whole Scenairio was a bag of worms, not take a time out to, establish some sort of calm, was it Nautique or was it the Officials that Initiated the call for a ban.

Sometimes life is not fair and eventually we have to live with the final outcome on that day.

Why Ban the Athelete who had the misfortune to be involved in failures and errors outside of their control.

I  still cannot get my head around the Ban !

 

 

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Hey, let’s not get too carried away about not having TWBC. Yes, they do a great job, but there is nothing in the rules requiring their level of production (“perfection” was the word my phone suggested). Jerry Jackson is the Master’s TC and he is as good as they get. Shit happens, and usually at the worst possible time. 

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So I’ll go back to what I said earlier and even make a request. Did Freddy knowingly break a code of conduct he knew he was breaking? Did he know the outcome of breaking that code before he broke it? Did he have a warning?. If I’m not mistaken, there is a meeting with the athletes to go over rules yes? And I’m guessing they have a written copy of the rules yes?? And in that copy I’d think there’d be a written code of conduct with warnings and outcomes. Is there a copy that can be shared here? Does such a thing exist? Should it if not? 

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@lpskier the Masters is supposed to be the most prestigious event of the year and they used less than the best video set ups. I do not see the counter argument. If they had used the best available video cameras, operators and methods this whole thing would have very likely avoided.   

To your point. If the video set up is within the rules and "good enough", is the Masters really the pinnacle of water skiing?  

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@horton TWBC is state of the art. They do a fabulous job. They also are expensive. I am told that the remote camera used in the boat at this year’s Swiss Pro Trick Event was an $80,000 Investment that they have to recoup. They have lots of very good, expensive equipment and very talented people operating that equipment (including your college buddy Jeromy Schall). It is entirely fair for them to charge what they charge, but is it really realistic to expect a tournament, any tournament, to hire them just because they are the best? I’m not sure about that. 

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18 minutes ago, lpskier said:

@horton TWBC is state of the art. They do a fabulous job. They also are expensive. I am told that the remote camera used in the boat at this year’s Swiss Pro Trick Event was an $80,000 Investment that they have to recoup. They have lots of very good, expensive equipment and very talented people operating that equipment (including your college buddy Jeromy Schall). It is entirely fair for them to charge what they charge, but is it really realistic to expect a tournament, any tournament, to hire them just because they are the best? I’m not sure about that. 

sounds like they got the new RED 8k Camera for the boat then?! pretty excited as it should be crystal clear and slow-mo *shouldn't be pixelated at all! Regardless, TWBC guys do an amazing job, and its always nice when im at work to watch / listen...I can honestly say for Masters I only tune in when friends are up. To many Ad reads for them IMO

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On 5/1/2023 at 4:44 AM, Jody_Seal said:

Screenshot_20230501_064232_Samsung Internet.jpg

Screenshot_20230501_064218_Samsung Internet.jpg

Screenshot_20230501_064119_Samsung Internet.jpg

Are you saying FW went all Hanover Fiste on the officials?    

FW is a fan favorite as well as one of my favorites, and someone I consider an absolute class act, but these three pictures imply he completely lost his shit and aggressively crossed some lines.  Even if the officials made some bad mistakes, I can still see a little time in the penalty box if he really was that aggressive.   I also agree the whole situation sucks.  

Edited by jjackkrash
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Well this frees up a weekend, definitely won’t be watching the master this year. The horrible stream and camera work made it hard to watch anyway (TWBC or bust). 
 

Awe Nautique did your feelings get hurt, now you’re going to take your ball and go home!!!! 
 

I would say when it comes to slalom skiing and safe sport, a passionate skier that had just been bullied by blind judges being upset is the least of your worries! As a father of daughters I worry a little more about other issues that come up when I google the sport!

Does anyone else find it embarrassing that someone that does so much for the sport (Freddie) is banned for being passionate? Give it a year or two and if it’s not part of the ProTour it’ll be a nothing tournament anyway. 

Nautique you should be ashamed of yourselves

just my 2 cents

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Oh come on, just look at Zara's post history. It's not that hard to figure out that they're not some shill. 

 

This is the closest I could come to finding anything about Freddie reacting. Ironically it was your comment @rockdog that made me go through Zara's post history and find this in the original thread from last year, @Horton posted it. 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CeIICWbACEn/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I think we can assume that this is not what got Freddie banned. 

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It sounds like the judges towers are in less than ideal locations. Backup to seeing critical locations in the course is video backup. With less than ideal tower locations, the TOURNAMEN should make sure they have additional video camera coverage. Simply expanding on the basic required cameras (gate, boat path/end course) to fill in some areas that can't be seen well from the towers should be the responsibility of the tournament. We're not talking a small local record tournament here.....its the Masters. While TWBC would likely have had a view that clarified that situation, its pretty weak for the tournament to rely on the broadcasts video  UNLESS they know the broadcast will be thoroughly covering the action with multiple cameras.

That being said....it is what it is. We don't know how far Freddie went with his protest. There is a process to challenge, beyond that you have to accept the ruling. There is a line, and if crossed there should be some form of punishment. No one seems to have 1st hand knowledge of what went on there, so its hard to be critical. 

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On 5/1/2023 at 1:28 PM, Horton said:

@buechsr

I am 99.999% sure that Rhoni was not the chief judge. My understanding is that she was not a decision maker on the events surrounding this controversy.   

Felipe Leal was the Chief Judge

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On 5/1/2023 at 10:13 AM, UWSkier said:

Not to derail the thread, but I love the Rose Bowl and all it USED to stand for back when my Badgers were winning them regularly.  But the CFP has devalued it so much, it's not even broadcast over the air anymore.

Masters waterski is kindof like that.  As a fan, there are more interesting events IMO.  Swiss, Travers, Bu Open, Lake 38, Jollyski, all more interesting as a fan.

The Rose bowl has a contract with ESPN through 2026 

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@ScottScott this is what is missing.   “There is a line, and if crossed there should be some form of punishment.” What line was drawn before he crossed it that he knew about? Let’s see the rule. If no written/spoken rule exists then they are just making up things on the fly which would be unfair and worrisome to all athletes at the Masters.  

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On 5/2/2023 at 9:36 AM, lpskier said:

@horton TWBC is state of the art. They do a fabulous job. They also are expensive. I am told that the remote camera used in the boat at this year’s Swiss Pro Trick Event was an $80,000 Investment that they have to recoup. They have lots of very good, expensive equipment and very talented people operating that equipment (including your college buddy Jeromy Schall). It is entirely fair for them to charge what they charge, but is it really realistic to expect a tournament, any tournament, to hire them just because they are the best? I’m not sure about that. 

I believe you added an extra "0" to the camera investment.  Non the less, its still a sizable investment.

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