Nautique Banning Freddy Winter From Masters

[zara59]

I seriously find it incredibly Ridiculous about Freddy becoming ineligible. From an outside view it seems as though this is almost a targeted response to what I see as a non issue. I don’t think you can Blame an athlete for becoming emotional on a particular terrible judging call, that has rendered your whole life dedication to the sport as such a small thing. Could you imagine if a tennis player who smashes his racket is banned for that event and the whole of next years event, or a race driver slamming his helmet down. Emotion is apart of sport. It’s the reason it is so good, and why we keep coming back. To punish emotion is the beginning of the end. The organisation is acting like our sport is this huge national tv sponsored show, when in reality we are so tiny and insignificant as a sport, that this kind of action just seems down right stupid. 

I think for Nautique to take this action is an extremely bad move on their part. Banning an athlete that just so happens to not be sponsored by them, but letting a certain other controversy that happened previous with a Nautique athlete go unchecked in terms of a ban from there titles events, comes across as down right targeting. 

All in all I think that if the effort put into this whole situation was directed towards actually growing and benefiting our sport, then we would be moving forward not backwards. It’s definitely a sad state of affairs and shows us in a very poor light as a whole. 

Apologies for the rant, I would rather be posting about how amazing it is to see new events popping up with huge viewership, but here we are. 

[Jody_Seal]

Bullying and intimidating chief judge and officials can not go unpunished,  wait! did It not happen in Miami too last year. the guy is lucky a safe sport complaint was not filed along with the 1 year suspension from Callaway.

he is not the first skier or rider to not be invited to the Masters due to unsavory action. 

 

[rockdog]

Well, I don't know much about this situation. But we all know what happened to Jacinta..

[Mastercrafter]

Yeah, bummer on Freddie but the real sad thing is Jacinta. 

[chaloux]

I would love to know what actually happened. Jody it seems like you have more details? Freddy was so careful with his words that I can only speculate.

[zara59]

56 minutes ago, Jody_Seal said:

Bullying and intimidating chief judge and officials can not go unpunished,  wait! did It not happen in Miami too last year. the guy is lucky a safe sport complaint was not filed along with the 1 year suspension from Callaway.

he is not the first skier or rider to not be invited to the Masters due to unsavory action. 

 

Ah yes the ultimately devastating safe sport report. Once a skier has one of those its all over. Or is it?

[BraceMaker]

@zara59

Depends on what the investigation turns up.

 

Is it nautique banning the athlete or a board?  Is the board comprised of waterski leadership or just nautique company employee?

Edited April 28, 2023 by BraceMaker

[dave2ball]

@BraceMaker Nautique has the right to invite or ban  whom ever they  choose to participate in the masters.  If I remember  right the masters is not part of the pro tour points and does not change standings.  After last year’s incident it was alway speculated whether or not Freddie would return for 23.  It’s sad that he will not be part of the slalom because it just takes one of the best skiers out of contention.  

[BraceMaker]

That might well be the case.... but that might well not be something that a real sport would permit.

Is there not a board of athletes who have to agree to the sanction if the athlete is qualified?

Edited April 28, 2023 by BraceMaker

[Stathis Ventouris]

@zara59 well said! @Jody_SealI was not present at Galaway Gardens during the incident but knowing Freddie for more than 25 years “Bullying and intimidating the Chief Judge” is a harsh if not an unjustified statement for him. 

First lets recap what happened last year at the Masters for those that did not watch the livestreaming of the event.   On the final elimination round Freddie is last of the dock, as the defending champion, and needs a score of 1@41off (10,25) to make the final. He runs  6@39,5off (at least what I saw and I guess the majority of the people watching the livestream) and eventually he was given following a judge decision 5@39,5off thus deprived of the opportunity to win the Masters for the 3^rd consecutive time!!!  A decision nobody understood as there was no  clear boat video, due to a  mistake of the cameraman or equipment malfunction, and the boat judge gave 6@39,5off and was overruled by the two  tower judges!! As there was no video that could clearly evidence what happened one would expect at least a rerun. 

As somebody that loves water skiing  and has followed the sport since the days of Bob La Point and of course the GOAT, Andy Mapple, the Masters (despite the not so perfect conditions) had been always considered the most prestigious and anticipated tournament to watch and most honourable to win. 

If we do not want our sport to die (unfortunately I see fewer and fewer young people involved with the sport and in our country the Senior 3 division has more competitors than the Open division and 3x the Senior 1 ones) a) the flagship of the sport The Masters SHOULD have the best live coverage, the most state of the art equipment and the best judging and b) it is unheard of that the key sponsor of the sport (also of the Worlds), that should do everything to promote our sport, to ban athletes from participating in tournaments especially one of the TOP ONES.

 

[mike_mapple]

14 minutes ago, Stathis Ventouris said:

 

As somebody that loves water skiing  and has followed the sport since the days of Bob La Point and of course the GOAT, Andy Mapple, the Masters (despite the not so perfect conditions) had been always considered the most prestigious and anticipated tournament to watch and most honourable to win. 

The sad thing, is the masters is no longer that prestigious event, it used to be that you had to ski all year to get an invite...now you have to just qualify for it, no invites so its not long the "top skiers" it is who ever qualifies for it.

[buechsr]

10 minutes ago, mike_mapple said:

The sad thing, is the masters is no longer that prestigious event, it used to be that you had to ski all year to get an invite...now you have to just qualify for it, no invites so its not long the "top skiers" it is who ever qualifies for it.

While I certainly respect your opinion and perspective Mike, it's still a prestigious field, even with LCQ to fill half the spots.  I can appreciate the prestige of Brooks Koepka playing in the golf Masters notwithstanding playing half of the events of the PGA tour on the LIV tour.  It would appear that goal of Masters is to have the most elite field.  Seems reasonable to award some spots to winners of other credible events, while saving some for who's skiing better the next May.  There's ways to get auto-invite based on performances during the previous ski year, save for Moomba being current year:

https://www.masterswaterski.com/news/2023-masters-water-ski-criteria

 

[Wish]

So what exactly did he say to the judges that prompted such a harsh response. He’s by far the most visibly emotional and passionate skier during competition. Was there a warning??. Even Jon McEnroe was given a conduct code violation for unsportsmanlike conduct warning before being ejected (more than once). Was Freddy granted a similar warning??. That should be standard if it’s not IMHO. Not comparing Freddy to McEnroe but you have to admit, McEnroe was  a force that kept viewers coming back. They wanted to see the heart felt passion. I’ll miss seeing that visible passion Freddy brings. And plus 1 for “bullying” not being used. That term is getting way over used these days and is getting watered down and blurs  what true bullying looks like. Sad for actual victims. 

[Mastercrafter]

Whether what Freddie did + said was appropriate or not, I wonder if the same consequences would have fallen on a Nautique athlete. They eliminated the possibility of a popular Mastercraft athlete winning a Nautique event 3 years in a row.

[coach3]

I had the pleasure of being a tower judge in just a record tourney that Freddie was skiing in. Two judges gave him 3, and one judge 3 1/2 as his ski rounded 4 ball in a full body slide. He questioned the call saying his ski got around 4, which it did, but the 2 judges said it did not count because he was not in skiing position. Freddie was respectful. However, what is your call?

[scoke]

smells like skifly up in here with a new user, with no personal contact information, no credibility, passionately, emotionally fighting anyone who disagrees with them while having only 13 posts.

 

 

manon is that you?

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by scoke
typos yo

[Dirt]

I wish I could ban Horton from our tournaments 

[Stevie Boy]

Or though, I respect the time and efforts officials put in, unfortunately we have seen some , questionable decisions in the past, that may have cost Athlete's a Title or a place on the Rostrum, resulting in loss of prize money or sponsorship deals.

Throw Passion and the feeling of injustice into the mix and emotions take over.

Unfortunately those involved on both sides, can over react, but ultimately there are no winners, everybody loses.   

[UWSkier]

The Masters is not even in my top 5 of tournaments I give a rip about.  It's like the Rose Bowl.  Interesting, but not really all that important anymore.

[liquid d]

2 or 3 judges voted no on the 39. Without video backup for them to appeal, you gotta go with the judges, that's what they are there to do.

  I got tossed from a softball game 2 weeks ago, and suspended for the next game.... and I wasn't even the guy that said "it".   They did not have an appeal court for me either!  😂

[Slalom.Steve]

Yeah this is a pretty severe punishment. If the offense wasn't comparably severe, this is out of line on the part of Nautique. In professional sports, every player argues calls with referees almost constantly. In my mind, to be banned from 3 events like this would require something like threatening harm/retaliation to the judges. If Freddie did do that, okay. If not, let the man ski!

[jimski]

Probably won’t even watch the master now.

no Freddie = no fun 

[mcskier41]

from one perspective I find it nearly impossible to watch the masters due to the low quality of its broadcast and announcers.  I only look at the results from following skiers I personally know skiing and understand how important the event is to them.  Otherwise I wouldn't even pay attention to the event.   It's like Moomba; impossible to watch

[aupatking]

The skier should be able to question the call and the fact that they couldn’t back it up with the requisite review should have angered him. We are talking about the Masters here. I guess he and I both wrongly held that tournament to a high standard. If that guy says he made the pass, he made the pass. I don’t know what he said to the judges, but “bullying” doesn’t fit what I saw. Complaining that he did not get the level of review he deserved and being angry about it seems the correct reaction. No point dragging Nate’s story into it though. 

It will keep me and my family from attending, which I hate, because I love to go to it. It is the only true “family event” that the US has as far as waterskiing goes, which is the only way I can get my wife and kids to go.

[chaloux]

Seems like if there were that many technical difficulties with reviewing, a compromise would be to have him re-run the pass? 

[Jaypro]

I agree with posts claiming that this seems like an excessive punishment for, admittedly, an emotional response. Banning a 2 time-defending Masters champion for arguing a seemingly very valid point.  How can you take away ball 6 six on a 39' pass with zero evidence?  I would have been beside myself as well.  We are talking about the man's career.  It is completely suspect that it is a MasterCraft athlete who gets banned from a Nautique event.  I don't understand how this sport, which is trying to revive itself, which Freddie is working his ass off to do, can't have a better review process.  How can you have a prestigious tournament like the Masters be run by a boat company, where there is the opportunity to grind one's ax is totally possible?  Does Freddie's reaction, rise to the SAFESPORT level of scrutiny, I guess I don't know.  There was talk of banning Freddie from all Nautique events for this, are you kidding me?  There has got to be a way for reasonable review by all parties can calmly look at the evidence.  Certainly, sponsors of tournaments cannot be allowed to dole out bans or punishments, that seems absurd.

[Stevie Boy]

Does the Rule Book not say, in these circumstances the Skier should get the benefit of the doubt or a ReRun ?

Does Nautique have the right to ignore the rules and become Judge and Executioner ?

Is there a separate set of rules specific to the Masters ?

[Buxrus]

I apologize for not being in the loop regarding all the politics of waterskiing.  

Can someone please give a detailed description of exactly what happened.  First person witness please.  

This will clear up speculation of the event and allow the discussion to be more focused instead of “maybe”, coulda shoulda woulda.  

Thanks. 

[Stathis Ventouris]

@Buxrus in my earlier comment, I described exactly what happened.

@Jaypro it is against the Code of Ethics of both the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and the IWWF for sponsors to interfere with the running of the sport!

[MDB1056]

and the actionable items here are ???????????????

[skialex]

This is only shrinking our beloved sport… without Freddie, I’m not that interested in watching this year’s Master’s. Broadcasting is not of the quality that we are used to, lately anyway. 
this is the only power I have as a skier to protest against this decision, no Freddie = no fun = no watching. I wouldn’t attend either if I was lucky enough to live close to the area.

The results will be on the IWWF live scoring anyway.

 

[lpskier]

So the rule is that if there is a question regarding a call, review the video. If the video review clearly shows the initial call was incorrect, the call can be reversed. 
 

As I understand this situation, the majority of judges called five. The video was inconclusive because as the camera swung to six ball, the boat judge obscured the picture. Since the initial call was majority five and the video did not clearly overrule the initial call, the initial call stands. 
 

On the other hand, could the officials have been persuaded that they had a failure of tournament supplied equipment, the camera, and give Freddie a reride with a protected score of five?  I have no idea if this was discussed in the moment, but as a senior official it would seem like a reasonable solution to a difficult problem. For me, though, the key to consideration of a reride is the fact that the boat judge called six and they couldn’t do video review. If the boat judge had also called five, I would not support a reride solution. 
 

I have never met a senior official who doesn’t want to get the call right 100% of the time. 

[chaloux]

1 hour ago, Stathis Ventouris said:

@Buxrus in my earlier comment, I described exactly what happened.

@Jaypro it is against the Code of Ethics of both the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and the IWWF for sponsors to interfere with the running of the sport!

Thank you for that summary. Specific to Freddie, all we know is that according to Freddie himself in the podcast, he had an emotional response to the situation that you described. But what exactly that means... We're not sure

[ETskier]

I'm wondering if there was any foul language or cursing involved. Nautique has always purported strong Christian values. Maybe they were offended. Its an invitational and they have a right to control who they want there.

[morfoot]

So as a masters regular I always get there early enough to claim my spot at perpendicular to the start gate to the right of the pavilion. I remember the whole thing like it happened yesterday as I was in the water to be closer to the action. The crowd was pumped on Freddies 39.5 pass. To me and everyone on the beach, and in the water he pulled out an freaking insane run. Looked to me like he got it and as the video shows when he pumped his fists out the gate, the crowd went nuts. We impatiently waited the score and all the shoreline judges agreed that he got it. The long wait before the decision was made, the shoreline folks we hollering ...Give him a Re-ride!!! If they were that unsure then that should've been the ruling IMHO. I don't tournament ski so I don't know what the rule is but seemed the best answer. 

I did see a video somewhere that someone posted of Freddies response to the challenge while he was on the pavilion and he was going ballistic. Emotions were high obviously on his part and maybe some expletives were said but I only saw it once so I cannot confirm it. 

All that being said I think it truly sux that he is banned for this year. I'm a Nautique guy but I do love to watch him ski along with all the other Athletes who are not Sponsored by Nautique. I love the sport PERIOD! 

To those of you not going because Freddie won't be there is a disservice to the sport. You go because its in your blood and love watching the pros do their thing. I can only hope that politics is not the issue with this incident and I'm still bothered about the whole Jacinta thing.   

I will be there as usual in my same spot so if you're there please come down and say hello. As for Freddie I wish him all the best and will continue to watch in awe of the man carve it up at the rest of the tour stops. 

[Slalom.Steve]

@Stathis Ventouris You did explain well what happened on the water, but that's not why Freddie got banned. The question is what Freddie did or said afterwards to get banned, which we don't know.

-

By golly geewilickers, mama'll be might'a mad if Freddie said a curse word! 😂 I hope to God (pun intended) that wouldn't be considered a valid reason for banning.

@ETskier Having "the right" to do something means it's not illegal/punishable by law, but that doesn't mean it's a good decision or that we can't criticize Nautique for it.

[Slalom.Steve]

Wait, what happened with Jacinta?

[lpskier]

Jacinta had the temerity to be the first woman to jump 200 feet. As a Nautique sponsored athlete, she had the misfortune of jumping that 200 behind a Mastercraft. Nautique dropped her sponsorship a week later. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by lpskier

[ETskier]

@SlalomSteveAgreed. I think it's a shame Freddie won't be there. Like golf, Augusta invited all the best, despite their tour or sponsor affiliations. But then again they would not tolerate a public expletive laced tantrum either. 

[Slalom.Steve]

@lpskier That is so messed up. Well, I'm officially anti-Nautique now.
(to be clear: because of the Jacinta situation, not this stuff with Freddie, which is gray enough and I don't have the details I'd need to really decide. But with Jacinta that's just wrong).

[chaloux]

2 hours ago, SlalomSteve said:

Oops - tagged the wrong person, sorry! I meant to tag chaloux. I just fixed it. If you wanna delete your post, I'll delete this one too.

I think you actually maybe meant to quote Stathis 😆

[Stevie Boy]

@lpskier I think you are spot on, with the Judges, but why did Nautique get involved, if there were no actions that brought Nautique into disrepute, what grounds do they have to interfere.

I,m done with this one now, moving on.

[Stathis Ventouris]

@SlalomSteve since I was not present (Manon, Brooks, Rhoni Barton were), I refrained from commenting on the incident and the behaviour of Freddie that was triggered by what happened before.   However, since `IWWF took an unprecedented action against an athlete, it would be fair for Freddie IWWF to disclose the evidence upon which they based their decision.

[Buxrus]

@SlalomSteve   Deleted. 

 

So in my initial post, I asked for first person explanation……..Ok, this was actually a sideways request to see if @FWinter would give his insight.   Can’t get any more “first person” than that.  Yep, it could be risky for sure, but his insight would certainly offer clarity.   

I don’t feel as though Nautique is taking this action based on sponsor affiliation.   Have we not been paying attention to our social culture the past 3 yrs?   Let’s wait and see if more explanation is offered up.  

[BelizeSkier]

This is ridiculous! One of the best skiers of the modern era and a back to back champ. Not too mention the sports best ambassador.
We all know Freddie is a passionate and driven competitor, just watch any tournament he’s skiing in. For him not to question a judges call, especially when his tournament is on the line, would be uncharacteristic of him.
He deserves to be skiing at the Masters because he is a master. Period. 

[Mateo_Vargas]

Where are the locations that the slalom judges are watching from at the Masters?

[Horton]

my understanding as of 10 months ago. 

Start at 7:40

https://youtu.be/GvfCmIS04SM

my opinion of some of the details has changed slightly in the last 10 months but the explanation of the events as explained in the video are pretty close.

 

 

[kmenard]

@UWSkier... Like the rose bowl? Are you sure you aren't UofA skier? 

[pdolas]

Let me start by reminding everyone the incident which took place a few years back at the Masters whereby the decision on who won the Mens’ slalom final changed 3 or 4 times before Nate - back then sponsored by Nautique - was declared Masters champion. I don’t even recall the exact details now, but in all the years, following the sport I do not recall something similar ever happening.

 

I have known Freddie since 2010. In a way Freddie was the reason I started slalom waterskiing. An upcoming 18 year old back then, his passion and commitment ripping the Arena at Thorpe come sunshine rain or snow was an inspiration for all of us to try harder! Later on as he won Bronze at the Worlds and moved on to become a Pro, I started following the Pro Waterski scene. Thank you TWBC for making the sport so accessible to watch! All these years Freddie is leaving nothing on the dock in his endless pursuit of one more buoy, another 41off, another win. Never leave the handle, (almost) never S turn and of course never claim a buoy you have not turned. NEVER. I urge anyone to find an instance whereby Freddie has tried to claim a buoy or a pass he has not completed. This attitude and passion is what is making Freddie so spectacular to watch. 

 

Coming back to Masters 2022, Freddie has a terrible start on 39off, but muscles his way through and appears to complete the pass. But wait a minute, did he turn 6? Freddie thinks so, the boat judge thinks so but the two dock judges - without a video to rely on -  overturn the decision despite being 200meters away! Does this make any sense? Surely the boat judge is in a better position to opine and in any case considering the technical issue with the video the benefit of the doubt should have been on the athletes’ favor. Either give the complete pass based on the judgement of the boat judge or give the chance for a re-run!

 

What exactly happened at the dock I don’t know, as I was not there. Eye witnesses though describe an emotional outburst and nothing more than that. Given the history though can you really reprimand an emotional outburst from a World Champion who has been treated unfairly? 

 

In a nutshell, the events which have taken place at the Masters certainly do not help our sport. One could probably justify a bad call from the judges, but when these are repeated and targeted at specific athlete which so happens to be sponsored by Mastercraft, it does raise questions. What I keep from all of this is an unfair behavior from a powerful sponsor trying to protect its own interests! Perhaps the governing body should investigate the role of Nautique in all of this as well as the Jacinta case. It cannot be a coincidence that such drama is taking place at the Masters and only at the Masters. Freddie has hundreds of tournaments under his belt with impeccable behavior both on and out of the water. No Freddie no Masters for me. 

[Stathis Ventouris]

@Horton has described what happened in the best possible way.

Let me add though what I have just found out that makes things even worse.   Freddie is not only banned from the Masters but also from the LCQ's where NAUTIQUE is not the organizer!!!   One can argue that since he can not compete at the Masters no problem.  However these tournaments are held in sites with excellent water conditions and usually competitors post some high scores. This year the big event is the WORLDS and athlete seeding is determined based on the scores posted throughout of the year.  Therefore Freddie has been deprived not only from participating in two highly competitive tournaments but also of the opportunity to post big scores and maybe win.

These behaviours towards Jacinta and Freddie should make us all wander whether our sport is on the right track.