Does leaning harder make you go faster across course?

[Horton]

Does leaning harder make you go faster across course?

I have had conversations with 3 different elite skiers in the last month about this. To my surprise all of these conversations created more questions than answers. I think I have a decent theory but I struggle to articulate it.

What is your theory?    

 

[MISkier]

My answer is yes, but with some caveats:

1.  The skier must be balanced over the ski.  If they are tail riding, then the extra lean is probably just digging them a deeper hole and creating more load.

2.  The extra lean is probably most effective from just before the first wake whitewater to centerline.  The rest of the path probably does not return anything.

3.  The result of the lean must be that the ski also leans further up on edge.  If the skier is somehow leaning hard and ski is remaining flat (not sure how that would even be possible), then there will be no return on that extra lean.

The reason I say there is more speed with more lean is that the ski is likely to become less flat and more up on the edge.  This should reduce the amount of wetted surface contacting the water and reduce drag.  And, the pendulum effect of the swing behind the boat is harnessed more by applying the extra resisting force with the ski on edge instead of riding flat.  If it's flat, the ski slips downcourse.  If it's on edge, the energy is converted into another direction and speed results.  More lean should equal less flat and more on edge.

This concept reminds me of sailing and taking a heading across the wind.  The boat goes faster when a path is chosen that harnesses the most wind and tilts the boat on its keel more.  The faster ride is when the boat is up on edge.  It's probably not even close to the same dynamics as skiing across the wake, but it seemed relatable.

Edited January 29, 2023 by MISkier

[Skoot1123]

@Hortoncan you elaborate a little more on leaning harder?  I interpret this as three options/ways this could be achieved in the course. 
1.  Rolling your ski on a higher angle 

2. Pulling more on the rope

3. Perhaps you mean both at the same time?

Edited January 29, 2023 by Skoot1123

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Simple question, simple answer: No.

I know that is not what you were looking for, but if you want a nuanced answer, ask a better question.

[Than_Bogan]

Strictly as phrased, I'd say yes: More lean angle, all other things equal, will bring more speed.

However, we don't just want more speed, we want the most speed we can build.  And that means that the angle of the ski to the course and the angle of the skier relative to the ski are both very important.  With a ski angle of 90 degrees, you could lean as hard as you want and would just create more load.  And if you leaned way over with the ski pointing straight (i.e. 0 degrees), then you'd just fall to the side.

The optimum speed comes from a ski angle somewhere around 45 degrees to the direction of tension and the skier leaning relative to the ski rather than just away from the boat.  To most of us mortals, this will feel like leaning way forward, which is scary because it's easy to confuse that feeling with BENDING forward (i.e. at the waist) which is OTF city.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield original question is intentionally a little vague. 

Does more load mean more speed?

Does more ski roll mean more speed?

 

[skibrain]

Barely qualified to engage here, but what I notice with the pros, is that instead of just establishing lean against the boat - even in a strong, aligned stack - they are able to move their center of mass slightly ahead of their feet.

We know that falling back behind your feet and just leveraging against the boat is a losing tug of war and not effective in generating speed.

It’s a subtle move, but THAT to me creates speed.

Get a feel of it by looping the handle over the pylon, get your balance stack, keep your feet planted and then move forward an inch or two. It doesn’t take a lot.

Look at pros like Dane M. Watch where the rope lines up across his ski as he hooks up and goes. They ski iNTO this stack, rope pull slightly ahead of and leading their feet. Zoom.

Can I do it? Working on it. But when I nail it, I’m much faster into the wakes and have new outbound speed.

[MDB1056]

Yes. Watch Dane. One of the absolute best at form. 

[Stevie Boy]

I would like to get Nates take on this, several Pro,s, I have spoken to, have made  comment on how efficient Nate is, when crossing the course.

My take is that Lean should match the Load, if you Lean too much for the line length and load, the boat will take control at the centre line, if you Lean too little you will just get pulled over.

People are always trying to get me to lean less, working on the theory Less is More.

My other thoughts are, if the ski is at less angle (meaning edge),it  would ride higher and therefor be faster, another plus for not leaning too much,  would result in less movement and more control during the transition. 

 

I don,t know if it equates when you turn the boat, effectively you put it on edge and create more drag, you have to apply more power to maintain speed.

Just my thinking, feel free, to put me right.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Stevie Boy

[Dano]

To increase speed you need to increase the force applied to the ski by putting more ski in the water, while  increasing roll angle, or increasing cross course angle.  Lean angle doesn’t necessarily result in any of those.  I do think it’s possible to try to  lean too far and flatten the ski due to ankle flexion. 

if you can figure out how to first create speed with less cross course angle, you can then increase cross course angle without creating more speed or increasing load. 

 
 

 

[GaryJanzig]

The short answer is yes, provided that you let the ski finish the turn to maximize your angle. If you don't let the ski finish, you can lean has hard as you want, but you have lost any momentum you could have gained.

 

[dchristman]

I refer you to GUT 102 load and speed are inversely proportional.  "Leaning harder" is therefore counter-productive. Gaining speed is the result of a controlled fall in the direction you are headed.

[A_B]

Let's all assume that as you lean more, you aren't double jointed and the ski doesn't stay flat on the water so it rolls up on edge more, and you don't lean back and pop a major wheelie, and you are leaning away from the boat in a stacked position with the handle anchored on your hip or close, and your elbows are locked into your sides, and your fin isn't so shallow that all you do is smear sideways down the lake, then hell yes you will increase speed.   

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by A_B

[Zman]

This discussion brings to mind the @Chris Rossi article "The Impossible Line."  Conditioning yourself to ski the "possible" line will generate big speed dividends as lean is progressively built into the whitewater. Now, if only I could ....

[Horton]

here's interesting question.... if you finish your turn and point the tip of your ski straight at the pylon are you going slower than the boat on your way  to the wakes?

[A_B]

@Horton I hope we aren't going to debate skiing by coordinates again....

Easy enough to see that the top skiers cross their ski under the line (which leads directly to the pylon) very early on at the finish of the turn.  When a ski points at the pylon, skier leaning, there will be no pull from the boat to keep the skier up and they would likely fall over.

A flat ski pointed at the pylon means, game over...  

[lpskier]

@Hortonsure, if you re creating slack. But I’d say no, if the rope stays tight you are going the same speed as the boat, or maybe just a RCH faster.  
 

Question: Who accelerates to a higher relativ speed? An open slalom skier at say 10.75 or a pro jumper? Someone has that data. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by lpskier

[Horton]

@A_B 100% no on coordinates

@lpskierif you point your ski at the pylon from the ball to center line you will be moving slower than that boat. This is not a good way to ski - is just a mind experiment. 

[aupatking]

A lot of good stuff here but the way I understood what Freddie once told me is you can lean all you want but you really want the ski to be flatter at centerline. Sailboats are the same and it’s why you see them with a ton of people hanging off the side (rail meat), they are fastest when flat. Any roll angle at that point is just load against the boat, not speed

[jayski]

@Horton 

Quote

 if you finish your turn and point the tip of your ski straight at the pylon..

15 or 39 off? Not sure this question can produce same answer to all line lengths

 

also, No to your first question

and No and No to the following two

 

@dchristman has the answer, get ahead of your feet, Nate, Charlie, both really good at facilitating that. The amount and ease of speed one can create by being 'ahead' is game changing

Edited January 30, 2023 by jayski

[Skoot1123]

It may also depend on what octane of fuel you are using in the boat and what speed control system you are using. 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton, Heres my geeked out perspective on a pretty challenging question....

More load will only create more tangential speed if the reaction-force vector on the bottom of the ski has a significantly large enough cross course component to cause the skier to accelerate radially around the pylon and overcome all drag and wind resistance on the moving body as a whole.

Quite often more "lean" definitely will result in more load which will absolutely cause a greater throttle response from ZO, but that doesn't necessarily mean tangential speed will increase at all.  

As many have alluded to, the upper-mass position relative to the "hydraulic force generator" (aka the slalom ski under your feet) will dictate the resulting reaction forces on ski - and its ability to cause acceleration of your mass.

In theory it is very possible to create greater rates of acceleration while reducing load on the line and on the ski.   When its done well, a skier can manage the lean such that their mass experiences increased acceleration with significantly less overall load on rope and ski - and be more hidden from ZO - producing less "throttle" response to the skiers input.  (incredible feeling when you figure it out).

Unfortunately the masses of skiers are creating acceleration directly through increasing both line and ski load - which directly increase throttle response/input from ZO to indirectly create the acceleration they're looking for.   

Want to accelerate faster? Ride a bigger hydraulic force generator.  Then point it in the right direction.  And then lean in the right direction. And then hang on tight.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by adamhcaldwell

[ALPJr]

Many of the thoughts mentioned in this thread remind me of what Syderhoud was teaching in the 90’s - mass leading the charge kinda like runners and skateboarders when they initiate acceleration.

Edited January 30, 2023 by ALPJr

[swbca]

Yes, but the efficiency of the skier on his ski will be different between skiers depending many factors including weight.  Generally, its easier for light weight skiers to be more efficient because they have less weight to accelerate and their ski will have less slip angle (=drag), allowing the "lean force" to convert to speed more efficiently.

If a skier maintains a constant strength to weight ratio as he gets heavier, his skiing may suffer because he and his ski will be less efficient.  Changing the size of the ski can offset this but not completely.

Edited January 30, 2023 by swbca

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell

On 1/30/2023 at 8:28 AM, adamhcaldwell said:

More load will only create more tangential speed if the reaction-force vector on the bottom of the ski has a significantly large enough cross course component to cause the skier to accelerate radially around the pylon and overcome all drag and wind resistance on the moving body as a whole.

@AdamCord @Bruce_Butterfield and a handful of other readers know exactly what this means. I am not sure but suspect that it misses the question I am working on.

I do not have an engineering background which is partly why I am struggling to get to the point. Please bear with my bad explaination.

At the centerline the ski will always be moving at the exact same speed as the boat down the lake, parallel to the path of the boat . The variable is the speed the ski travels around the pylon. ("Tangential velocity" - I looked it up).

The less the ski resists the the pull of the boat - parallel to the path of the boat - the less the ski is propelled around the pylon? If you finish the turn and point your ski at the pylon then you will not be propelled around the pylon. 

All other things being equal - if you finish with what skiers call "angle" you will be going faster by the time you reach centerline.

The crux of my question is the following..... does the resistance to down coarse slide created by the roll angle of the ski increase speed around the pylon? I can imagine that beyond a critical point additional roll could actually increase resistance to speed around the pylon.

(You will not that I am specifically talking about the roll of the ski not the load in the hands of the skier. This is a theoretical question not a practical question) 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton  - YES it can. But only if certain circumstances exist.  Which I think is why this gets confusing.

Let me spend more time putting this into better perspective over the weekend. 

 

[MarcusBrown]

@ALPJr You are exactly right.

Honestly, without Suyderhoud's contributions during the 90's and 2000's, I do not think very many people would be on the right track.

Today, it seems like a majority of skiers out there (and most on this forum) have a sense that standing on the ski "correctly", means the skier has to make a dynamic effort to keep their body moving slightly "ahead" of their feet.  Now when we say mass "ahead" of the feet, what we really mean is mass closer to the wakes, than the feet, on the acceleration phase. The frame of reference matters, and in this line of thinking, the frame of reference is the Skier+Boat system...  One way to put this, is that the skier should be trying to actively "Fall" towards the wake - as the skier begins accelerating toward the wakes, if they make a "dynamic" effort to keep their mass "ahead" of their feet, they gain water speed under their ski...which provides more support, which allows them to add "LEAN", which creates more rope AND ski load,...BUT if they keep their mass moving ahead of their feet, that ski load (hydraulic force, as some call it, felt through the feet) contributes to acceleration towards centerline, which instantaneously reduces rope load slightly....which increases water speed under the ski,...which then allows for a bit more lean, and the cycle repeats itself up to centerline....where it approaches a limit, of sorts.

The Adam's have discussed this very same thing, from a different frame of reference: the Skier's perspective.  From that frame of reference, the goal is to achieve (and actively maintain) a stance Perpendicular to the ski.  Either way, the same thing is being described.

However, without Suyderhoud breaking through in the 90's (as you've mentioned) I really don't think any of us would've figured this out...OR if so, it would've taken much longer to get to the level of collective understanding we are at currently.

[Stevie Boy]

Just thought , I would throw this in, please be gentle, so by applying increased load into the centre line, can be achieved in different ways, if applying pressure with your legs, back and shoulders, the ski is likely to be on a steeper axis, the resistance would be directly against the boat, you would be heavy on the line, but if you apply load with your hips up and shoulders away, maintaining leg stance, the ski axis would be reduced, you would be lighter on the line, resulting in more efficient accleration and swing around the pylon.

I think leaning harder would create more speed, but not if you are using a counter productive method.

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown  What you wrote above is a level more more practical than what I am attempting to address but I think I agree with you.

I have always thought that the subject you are addressing could be simplified by addressing the effects of the angle of attack of the ski. Instead of talking about where your mass is in relation to your feet why not simply talk about how deep the tail of your ski is in the water. The flatter your ski is in the water the less resistance it is creating. When a skier drags their ass across the wakes he is driving the tail down and pushing water - creating drag. A skier who gets the ski super flat is supported by more surface area and creating less drag.

This does play into my original original question. As the ski gets flatter in the water there is more bevel and tunnel in the water. Does rolling the ski over farther ( engaging more bevel and tunnel ) necessarily increase resistance to the pull of the boat and result in less slide down the lake forcing the ski around the arc faster.

Load is the pressure felt by the skier created by the how much resistance is created by the path and attitude of the ski. 

 

As I said above - I apologize for not having the engineering vocabulary to convey my ideas more clearly. 

[AdamCord]

@Horton maybe you should ask ChatGPT

 

[AdamCord]

Not bad...

 

[Than_Bogan]

I majored in AI at MIT.  I kinda always knew I'd live long enough to see it bring the end...

[MarcusBrown]

@Than_Bogan my only question now, is "How serious is your statement above?"

[ROBOT]

all humans must die

[Than_Bogan]

Not to totally hijack the thread, but: There are indeed real concerns with AI technology.  But the saving grace is that we all see it.  Many movies have explored various downfalls, whether the "overthrow" scenario like Terminator or Matrix, or the "do nothing" future of Wall-E.

As long as people are a little scared, then we'll probably be OK.

[A_B]

@Zman You took exception to my post, which is fine, but why not back up your dislike by articulating how a ski aimed at the pylon is the preferred method of leaning through the wakes.  I explained my rationale, so please explain yours.

 

[Horton]

On 1/29/2023 at 1:49 PM, Horton said:

here's interesting question.... if you finish your turn and point the tip of your ski straight at the pylon are you going slower than the boat on your way  to the wakes?

Since this thread has lost steam... what I was saying about pointing your ski at the pylon is if you are out at the ball one and have zero angle & a tight line you will simply fall to the bottom of the arc and have less speed than the boat on your way to the wakes.

[ski6jones]

15 hours ago, Horton said:

 if you are out at the ball one and have zero angle & a tight line you will simply fall to the bottom of the arc and have less speed than the boat on your way to the wakes.

Wouldn't you be moving across the water infinitesimally faster than the boat is?  You're going further than the boat in the same amount of time.  Same as when you turn with great angle but to a much smaller extent.  Probably not the point you were going for.

[Horton]

my point is perhaps clumsy. With ZERO angle, a flat ski and a tight angle you would just "fall" down the pendulum at speed less than the boat. 

This is exactly the opposite of what we are trying to do.

[rico]

@Horton I think speed is overrated. 
 

 

[lpskier]

I agree with or at least share the same confusion as @ski6jones   I responded earlier that in this scenario the skier would be going the same speed as the boat or very slightly faster, my rationale being that the skier has to travel the long side of a right triangle while the boat travels the second longest side of the triangle. The skier is traveling a longer distance than the boat and therefore must go slightly faster. @horton What is the math that says the skier would go slower? Bear in mind, I’m the token English and history major. 

[rico]

I think for most it does not matter. Unless the skier is extremely talented and fit, leaning harder will most likely move the pull / force to a higher point like the shoulders instead of the hips. That would cause a loss of connection and swing, therefore affecting the speed down (more load and less speed).

It would also cause a bigger movement into the pre-turn from lean away from the boat to over the ski instead of staying still and connected over the ski. This would make the turn more challenging.

My guess is the lighter the skier the more they will get away with more lean. Heavier skier (like me) should not lean.

 

[dleenhouts]

Try it out on your local playground's swingset.

[ETskier]

I seem to need more giddyup out of my ski from turn to 1st wake. Maybe that's old school, but rebound flex from my ski is important. 

[Adam Caldwell]

@rico - YES - speed is overrated.

@Horton  I think that is exactly what we should do.   Keep ZO happy.  Use as little ski angle as necessary, and let the tunnel and fin drive you across the lake.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell have you ever seen @adamhcaldwell ski?

[Horton]

@rico i agree assuming the skier can achieve enough speed by center line. 

[Zman]

On 2/7/2023 at 4:47 PM, A_B said:

@Zman You took exception to my post, which is fine, but why not back up your dislike by articulating how a ski aimed at the pylon is the preferred method of leaning through the wakes.  I explained my rationale, so please explain yours.

@AB , sure. Nothing too negative. I simply disagree that the best skiers have their ski cross under the rope right out of the turn, or sooner than most.

Plenty of videos out their showing their skis cross under the rope closer to the first wake.

Maybe I misunderstood what you said?

 

 

 

[rico]

[escmanaze]

Try leaning less.  

Did you go slower or faster across the course?  

 

Now a little less still.  Result?  

 

Now try even a little less.  What are your findings?