Lean angle stand

[Jaypro]

Hey ballers, as I watch the snow fall down I was day dreaming about skiing, water skiing!  I have a handle on my front porch, but I would love to find one of these lean angle bases.  Anyone know where you can find them?

[S1Pitts]

You have a picture. Nothing for a welder / fabricator to whip up.

[MISkier]

I think that was previously marketed as PerfectPull.  I think it was mentioned on this forum before that there were plans available to make it, as the original manufacturer decided not to continue.

[Jaypro]

@S1Pittsyes, a picture.  I think its safe to assume the lean angle for various rope lengths would be different.  

[swc5150]

Yes that was from Perfect Pull.  I tried one at MC of Arizona back in 1991, but haven't seen one since.  Then lean angle on it for anything over -28 seemed crazy.  Cool idea though for sure.

[MISkier]

I tried to search the forum for the old thread on it, but it looks like the search engine has been cleared.  Only new posts are showing in results.  The site might need to be indexed again.

[Jaypro]

@Hortonanything on this, John?

[Horton]

I'm pretty sure there's one rusting in the trees behind the dock at SkiWest Lake 3 in Bakersfield.

That's the only one I've seen in decades and that's about all I know. I think it is one of numerous well intended water ski devices that is basically useless.

If I didn't mind insulting some well intentioned water skiers I'm pretty sure I could start a long thread about completely useless contraptions that have been marketed to the waterski world over the years.

[Horton]

as I answer the previous post drinking coffee in bed I realize that I had a dream last night about the old EP tube wings. I think in the dream I was trying to explain how the wings work to Marcus Brown. In the future I'm not going to tell anybody about my dreams.

[Horton]

@MISkier You're searching with Google? if so yeah I had a developer make some edits yesterday which will make things better in the near future. it does not impact the site internal search which should be fantastic 

[skihacker]

Many winters ago I built a lean handle contraption and used it pretty religiously over a winter, my humble opinion is it just doesn't replicate the same load to arms and elbows and such, might be worth more as a pre ski stretch routine?? 

[Jaypro]

I was thinking it would be decent just to practice proper stance on my snow covered porch.  More of a muscle memory thing.

[MISkier]

@Horton, I was using the search bar at the top of the forum page - not Google.  I even searched for terms I recall from some of my own previous posts and nothing was returned.

[MISkier]

@Horton, I see the issue.  The search bar default changes to "This Topic" and you need to set to "Everywhere" to get results from the rest of the site.

[BraceMaker]

Somewhere on a computer from my distant past I have 2 videos of what was probably training from russian or similar waterski teams.  There were two videos; a carpet treadmill trick ski trainer with people doing toes on a carpet treadmill, and a waterski lean angle trainer that had I believe a torsion rod and a pivoting platform so that the skier could be dynamic between the line load and angle.

 

But this is 2023 has anyone here tried a tonal?  https://www.tonal.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAic6eBhCoARIsANlox84XgC06-IZx95Hsv-GBwI2RAzdkCXedVihoE-Px0Jx1SIkPkPdwL1IaAun6EALw_wcB

 

I've only tried them a handful of times but ever single time what has occured to me is that with a couple of adapters and brackets and some programing this is essentially a waterski lean trainer.  Seeing some of the Marcus brown training content it occurs to me that if you really fully wanted to get in waterski shape a Tonal with somesort of balance board/lean apparatus and a visual diagram of your position on the screen would be incredibly powerful.

Edited January 27, 2023 by BraceMaker

[Horton]

@Jaypro it is a well intentioned idea. I just don't think it is a worthwhile tool.

If I remember correctly the contraption has your feet going 90° from the pylon. Maybe not the biggest problem with the concept but in my mind it's the most obvious.

Maybe more important is that your position approaching the wakes is largely dictated by the way you leave the ball. So this contraption shows you what position you should have been but I don't see how it teaches you to get there.

With all that said I'm sure there's somebody out there who is going to swear by this thing. I'm an idiot for disbelieving in it. fine great whatever.

[Horton]

@rico is that thing still in the bushes by the dock between Lake 3 and Precision?  

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@HortonIt is still there yes. 

[Horton]

@ColeGiacopuzziever seen anyone use it?

[brody]

I believe Matt Rini uses one at his school

[Than_Bogan]

@HortonIt was at a much earlier stage that I found it extremely useful.  Getting the feel of how low I could be and really let my mass hang and turn into line tension was quite enlightening for someone naturally tentative like me.

I used it weekly for a few winters, and found it very beneficial, but I stopped using it once I had a clue and needed to focus on subtler elements.

[lake4skier]

I have one on my dock that a neighbor and former ski partner gave me when he quit skiing.  I primarily used it to stretch prior to a set.  Not so much anymore.  You could have mine to get it off my dock.  I'm south of Houston at Lago Santa Fe.

[MDB1056]

@Horton  - would love to see a thread on all the useless items that have been created for skiing ! Could be quite entertaining.   

[Boo]

@Jayproi have one in Mississippi home. Ski at Cory’s. Could trade it for a couple ski sets sometime. Message me. 

[JAS]

Horton has a good point. I bought a carbon fin years ago and was red herring.

[chaloux]

Interesting device.  I really need to setup a ghetto version of this with a tree or something to figure out my offside position when entering and heading through the wakes. The turn is fine, it honestly might even be better than my onside when it's good. I'm not sure what happened, but whatever I had, let's say 2 years ago, I lost. Onside is just as strong and natural as ever but I've somehow gone backwards with my offside. If I can train some muscle memory or just get into a position that I can then replicate out there on the water, I think it would be beneficial for me getting through my goal of 14m@55kph. 

[LOTW]

Could this thing not be modified or redesigned to be a beneficial tool? Make it replicate the ski stance more accurately? 

[Horton]

@LOTW

It might be worth 10 minutes of effort. I really don't think it is worth much more.

[Jaypro]

@Horton perhaps look at it through the lens of a beginning slalom skier.  2 years ago, I was at @theboardingschool and Travis has a handle attached to a post that I was using to stretch.  Freddie came over and worked with me on my positioning, more specifically, getting my front knee more over my toes while maintaining my hips and chest in proper position, while trying to stay in a tall position.  With the ability to stay in static position, you can really isolate each piece.  It was a great coaching session for me, and we were just hanging out having a beer at the end of the day.  It just clicked being able to experiment moving forward and back, proud chest and clinch your butt cheeks!  I thought with this type of device, it might more accurately represent your position on the water.

[Horton]

@jaypro yes I have coached that way a thousand times.  Once you understand the the lesson being taught then it is over. This contraption is not totally useless but as a rope on a post is 99% as good. I am so negative about this because there are better places to put your energy. It is not a terrible idea but is is not a great idea.

[skialex]

Maybe a motorized or rubber bands on rollers going over bumps version. To simulate wake crossings and a bucket of cold water at each end to simulate OTFs…  it only needs someone to design it. 😂

[A_B]

Gordon thought leaning with a handle was a good idea.  I have always had one setup in my basement tied to a support pole.

 

 

 

 

 

[lpskier]

I practice trick skiing on a lazy Susan. 

[dchristman]

@lpskierI trick ski with Susan and she's not lazy!

[Blofeld]

 

[VONMAN]

Back when I lived in Michigan I had workout cage with a upper and lower pulley system with stack weights. This would simulate my max load behind the boat. I would put a shorter ski handle and made a 45 degree angle platform (10"wide) for my feet and 140/150 lbs of weight to feel the stack load in my legs arms and back. Switching from onside I would get in a good stack position and flex my knees and straight arms slightly about 8 to 10 times and then reverse to my offside stack position and do the same. Doing 3 reps a day would keep the muscle memory and strength ready for spring skiing. Picture shows Cage, Cable Crossover and Leg sled in background that was in my Michigan lake house.

[Shell]

@Jayproits easy to rig one up, @RAWSkimade this for me and we even have our grandson using it!

[Jaypro]

@Shelllove it!  

[Broussard]

I could certainly see the benefit of having one of these at a ski school as there is typically a high concentration of newer skiers that could benefit from a tool like this. Outside of that there really isnt much of a use or market hence why the Perfect Pull is no longer produced. 

[Adam Caldwell]

I think the concept is very cool, but without someone "instructing" the appropriate effort behind the drill on the lean stand, it could potentially lead to really poor mechanics on the water.

I think to be effective, the handle must mount much closer to the floor in order to more accurately re-create the compressive load on the body that is created as ski lean increases.  That doesn't tend to happen when handle is mounted up high on a static apparatus like that.

[BraceMaker]

@adamhcaldwellthat's where I think if there was such a think as a Tonal subscription to coaching.  Where you could work with a person where you had the equipment a stand or whatever and a unit where you were watching them and interacting.  https://www.tonal.com/coaches/

But also it could feed out "rope" you could actually use that to train.

[teammalibu]

i built a cool version this week since it wont stop raining.

I used several heavy stretch bands and a pulley. i wanted to be able to do knee bends under load while 

in the lean position and stay as close as possible to the wall. And also didn't want to be pulling the bands toward my face.

Ill post a pic tomorrow.

[Drago]

There's one at Kodiak. $1,000 + shipping and it's yours

[Shell]

22 hours ago, adamhcaldwell said:

I think the concept is very cool, but without someone "instructing" the appropriate effort behind the drill on the lean stand, it could potentially lead to really poor mechanics on the water.

I think to be effective, the handle must mount much closer to the floor in order to more accurately re-create the compressive load on the body that is created as ski lean increases.  That doesn't tend to happen when handle is mounted up high on a static apparatus like that.

@adamhcaldwell With mine, the handle can move up and down the pole for correct placement, it really helped me last season, FWIW

Edited February 1, 2023 by Shell

[Adam Caldwell]

when it comes to doing any kind of lean drill..... In my mind one of the most important elements is having a target to aim at somewhere off in the distance behind the stand - or mentally in your head. 

For example, having a target that is of relative angular displacement to say #1ball from the gate will give the skier a more realistic place to AIM their efforts.

If you look at the geometry from CL of the gate, the straight line path to one ball is ONLY 23degress from CL.   Shift your wake crossing over to the right hand gate ball and this angle becomes smaller... down to 20deg!

In my mind, both in practice on shore, and practice in the course, making any effort to ride the ski into the first wake at 60 or 90deg extreme will only create tons of unsustainable load and speed into CL (which pisses off the cruise) and dynamically disconnects the skier from the pendulum swing on the way to the ball.  No need to ever align your feet at an angle any greater then 45deg to the pivot.

Being aware of course geometry will have a massive impacts on a "lean drill" on any kind of static lean stand....Most people put their feet 90deg to the pivot which just binds up and completely misaligns the body and fails to teach the skier how to utilize the whole body (balls of feet to top of the head) in executing the "stack".  

@Shell - NICE!  Yeah I think that's the right idea for sure.  When I work with people at Trophy, I always tie the rope off at ground level to a tree or whatever with about a 5' lead, and then attach the end of the handle to that.  Helps to create compression between shoulders and feet as the skier increase lean angle.  Then skier can learn how to create separation between shoulders and feet to allow vertical space for the hips to move forward and get the body into its most effective alignment to handle the load. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by adamhcaldwell

[Jaypro]

@adamhcaldwellso to clarify, skier's feet on flat ground, in what you described above?

[Adam Caldwell]

@Jaypro - in the most simple setup. yeah sure. In reality  I would be looking to get the roll angle of platform somewhere between 25-40deg.  More then that on land and I don't think its realistic.  (The body can get to deeper lean angles, but usually there's a significant ankle/knee/hip flexion that is creating the additional body lean.  Said differently, in a snapshot of a skier crossing CL, ski roll angle doesn't not necessarily equate to body lean angle.)

What should start to open your eyes is that with having feet/chest pointing on a slightly shallower angle in this kind of drill, (as described previously) you should realize you can stand taller and lean your body much further across the skis edge without increasing load on the rope. 

Something you should notice is how your body lean relative to the ski starts to change  - and also your body lean relative to the rope as well.

The lean is a 3-dimensional effort...finding some keys to anchor all three dimensions of the lean can go a long way to seeing results and changes on the water.  But if the setup of the simulated land drill is wrong, it can potentially be counter productive on the water as nothing will translate over.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by adamhcaldwell

[Jaypro]

@adamhcaldwellThank you so much for the clarification.  It seems like I unintentionally opened a can of warms with what I thought was a simple question and a desire to practice proper body alignment! I appreciate everyone's feedback. 

[Adam Caldwell]

@JayproAs much as people like to try to "simplify things" I believe trying to simplify the "right thing" is very important. 

This sport is highly complex and there's honestly nothing simple about it.  The rabbit hole goes DEEP.  I'm still trying to figure it out myself.  

[teammalibu]

After looking at the picture and reading the above comments I will prolly lower the pulley a bit.