How strong do you need to be?

[Deep11]

Leading on from the “what does CR or other do differently…..?”
Many of us are working hard in the off-season on our strength and conditioning, which has me thinking about “benchmarking”.
This is perhaps a “how long is a bit of string?” Question, (its winter though and its still dark outside):

What do we think is the “minimum dose” of strength to be able to consistently ski deep (38off & shorter) short line?

The immediate measures that come to mind are: 
Deadlift
Squat (back and front)
Pull up / muscle up
Bench press
 - all as a percentage (or multiple of) body weight.

The easy answer is that whoever you are you could always benefit from being stronger.
If your goal is to ski short line however having a benchmark to work to might be really useful (and also reinforce the need for better technique, if you have achieved the benchmark.)
Technique as we know is a massive variable with, I think we’d assume, poor technique requiring greater strength.
I dont think a knowledge of someones strength would ever be a surrogate marker for where they can get to, but it might be helpful in showing where they need to focus their limited time. 

The best data would be to put the best skiers in each category (36, 55 & seniors) to a strength test -  probably not practical though. I’m fairly sure some of the best skiers go nowhere near a gym and simply do the sport to get better - they would be the best to test directly, if we could 🙂

K

[dave2ball]

I believe working out either at a gym or home with bands or circuit trading is alway beneficial.  Strength will only get you so far. When skiing 38 and shorter technique will far out weigh strength when it comes to getting through the pass. 

[UWSkier]

Skiing is about functional strength.  I don't see any skiers built like an NFL running back.  Nate Smith looks like he's never been to the gym a day in his life.  I'm almost always the strongest guy on the dock wherever I go... but I'm usually far from the best skier.

[Mastercrafter]

 

I would be really curious to hear Nate's off-water training regiment vs Freddie Winter vs Will Asher vs... ? Nate's the best in the world and as others have said, doesn't look like he knows what weights are. 

I'll be going into 2023 way stronger than I was coming out of 2022 which I suspect will be both good and bad. Good when I ski correctly and need to create leverage / hold position / manage load. Bad when I decide to slam a turn and spike ZO like it's never been spiked before. Kind of interested to see if I actually feel any difference skiing, or notice faster improvement. I'm working on consistent -28/36 so the mental game of shortline skiing isn't quite in play. 

Been doing Flowpoint Method Workouts 3X week (plenty of exercises on top of deadlift, squat, cleans, pullups, etc), learning olympic lifting (explosive power and lots of core), and also running 3 days/ ~20 miles per week.  Lots of stationary bike & rowing as well.. down 10 lbs from last season. It's amazing what skiing has motivated me to do. Regardless of results on the water, I feel better than I ever have. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Mastercrafter

[thager]

I have been working out consistently every winter at home on a DP gym I bought in 1991 or 92. Strength is great but body alignment, technique is more important. If you can also drop some weight and improve your strength to weight ratio you are on the right track. Looking back at my written records every one of my best seasons were at lower weights.   

[Ski_Dad]

i agree on the weigh - i dropped 30 lbs in 2021 and my ski really came alive.    

I personally do pushups, curls, kettle balls, cycling, and various captains of crush grippers.   I only do the grippers in the off season though.

[rayn]

To me working out isn’t about skiing, it is for injury prevention and staying balanced in a sport that is asymmetrical. I agree technique over strength is paramount. 

[Horton]

A skier is like a race car. All other things being equal - more power is better and less weight is better.

I have found as I get older that I can not ski AND lift. I just do not have enough juice to do both in the same week. Most years I lift (poorly) in the off season and then ski a lot the rest of the year. Today was a deadlifts, pull ups, dips and other stuff day. 

I have also dramatically cut back on the booze just lately. I am hoping this helps something. 

[6balls]

I competed powerlifting and waterskiing. Power in the winter and done for summer--only skiing.  Power for me was only good for one thing in terms of having an excess of same as opposed to an adequate amount per body weight--getting me out of bad spots and scrambling.  Nothing else. 

Takes less power to be a smaller skier--look at the girls divisions--geez toiling away at 34 mph and 38 off and watching teen girls do the same but so light on the line. 

Proper form/leverage/position trumps SO much power.  I lacked in certain areas but made up for some of my technical issues with an overdose of power.  So I guess as Horton mentioned--more power w/out excess weight is never a bad thing--but excess power is not necessary if technique is great ie) Nate  

[JWebSki]

My best guess for the highest correlation between a physical excercise and skiing would be a dead hang. Grip strength needed to hold onto the handle, lower body weight is advantageous, and straight arms to transfer the loads more efficiently. I bet the top male and female skiers would all be good at a dead hang

[MDB1056]

Yes this thread as well as others that are truly some of the best ever on BOS all consistently identify form and body position vs strength/power as key. As noted above, need no more than to watch the teen girls ski so well and be so light on the line. Watching the women ski is always so much more of a slalom clinic on how to ski correctly and efficiently vs watching most of the men . Another key item for all us hacks is lean angle and holding it vs pulling with arms to try and generate speed.  Trying to rodeo the boat is a 100% losing proposition. Don’t do it. If I’m constantly pulling in with my arms vs arms straight and pulling through my core I know I’m out of position and just beating myself up with excess load.  Awareness is half the battle. As a relatively light skier (5’9” 155) I shouldn’t need tons of strength for my goals of 55k 13&12m. Also at my age (66) if things get sideways I’m 100% inclined to toss the handle vs try to pull it out . Ski another day ….. I workout most days but it’s more to maintain and tone than build . 30 mins cardio ( elliptical) , lots of abs work, pull-ups, squats, curls etc with 20 lb dumbbells. Reps vs rips 

Edited January 18, 2023 by MDB1056

[NameUnavailable]

I believe it is most about strength to weight ratio than anything. A good measure of the this is pull ups and push ups. I believe in weight training especially for legs. Regardless of what you do for workout and diet you need something you can stick with long-term. I have seen some very good skiers loose weight and improve...Dana R. told me one time when you had to give your weight to the driver all you guys weight the same 165 (at that time lol). 

Edited January 19, 2023 by NameUnavailable

[bkreis]

this is quite simple, train to have have balanced strength throughout our bodies to help prevent injury, be mobile in an asymmetrical sport, move like a cat/stay over our feet.

I do live virtual training and via email or in person if your in miami if any are interested.

[twhisper]

J.B. Mauney Balance Workout

Super light, wirey and tough af. Stands on a balance ball for hours while watching videos of the best to do his sport.

If I had to choose between working out to get better at skiing, or watching videos of the best skiers in the world to get better at skiing I would pick watching videos. The combination of the two is probably ideal, but I would say most people have more strength than they do style and and they completely under-utilize watching videos.

I watched countless hours of the old Pro Tour on tape as a kid, and I was lucky to get to watch Jason Paredes practice for years. Watching great skiers ski has had way more influence on my technique development than anything else.

Buttery Smooth JaP

 

[Than_Bogan]

Bench press is almost completely useless for slalom, and the other "traditional" exercises mentioned are handy but not that strongly correlated either.

Core strength is far more valuable.  Your mass and skeleton can provide tons of leverage if you have the core strength to remain in that position.  Achieving the minimally required arm and leg strength for that load is much easier that the minimally required core strength to hold that alignment.

And that "staying with the handle after second wake" move that we all talk about is almost pure core strength.

Train like a gymnast.  Or heck BE a gymnast.  Seems to work for the G.O.A.T.

[Adam Caldwell]

This is always an interesting subject - and one I can relate to big time.

Being strong as an ox will only get you so far unless you can figure out how to harness your output in a productive manner.  This is especially true with ZO when you put a gorilla like me on the end of the line.  The harder you load up ZO, the better skier you have to be in order to handle the additional speed you will encounter at the ball.   Learning to be powerful in your technique, body position and timing will trump any deadlift strength.

No doubt an increase in overall strength will help ensure consistency, control, and longevity - AND recovery (in case of bad crashes).  But as @Twhisper mentions, there's no replacing continual focus on your technique - in whatever form that may take.

The biggest gains I have realized in this sport have 100% come from major changes in understanding the dynamics of the sport, and evolving a different philosophy overall.  The simple act of physically emulating other top skiers is highly beneficial - and I think will get most skiers through 35off.  To MASTER 38 and beyond is another level of commitment of time, study, focus, and energy.

What I find cool though is the deeper you get in to this sport, the more there is to learn.  It never stops!

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

I second @twhisper& @adamhcaldwellI think my main focus has always been to have the best power to weight ratio I can and trying to stay as lean as I can. I've also focused a lot on my core, I feel like its the key to having everything be strong and having a stronger core protects your back.  Building on what the two have said above; since I was a kid I can confidently say I've have spent 100x the amount studying skiers and going out and skiing than spending time in the gym. Just always Obsessed with watching learning. I take that and try to be laser focused and ALWAYS have a goal when I went out and skied. Being strong is part of it, but the more you understand it the farther you will get. This sport is 80% mental. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by ColeGiacopuzzi

[Fam-man]

Historically I've done lots of jogging and core work. Last spring I re-introduced strength training and balance work and took the biggest step forward in slalom performance that I've had for a long time. This is definitely an activity where being in shape is beneficial and as better skiers then me have pointed out technique trumps all.

[JackQ]

Strong is only relevant in relation to strength to weight. Then the question is strength of what, strong pecs and triceps would only matter if you plan on pushed on the rope.  I believe lower body strength is what really matters so I emphasis working my legs heavily and putting miles on my bike, and playing racquetball. 

However, often strong individuals learn to ski and try to harness their strength to the deterrent of their body position, handle control and edge change.   The scrap and crash, and then repeat.  

The ideal scenario is to learn how to ski properly and then get strong, like Bob LaPoint, running short line when he was a skinny kid and then growing up, I expect that is what will happens to Charlie Ross as he matures.   

A good regime of conditioning and strength training, may improve one skiing performance but more importantly should greatly reduce the occurrence of injury and if injured, reduce the severity and lessen the recovery time.  So there is a utility for bench press, but I see too many making that a priority and neglecting all other muscle groups.  Alas, I spend a lot of time in the weight room and cant seem to get any closer to Adam Caldwell’s  physique, or skiing either. 

 

 

[Dirt]

I agree 100% that lean and balanced with an understanding of what’s required to run short rope is essential. I know how to do it but I am fat and weak with not much practice and I struggle. Repetition of as perfect a pass you can run at the shortest rope length you can do it correctly is very important.

Don’t run sh**ty sloppy passes then shorten until you miss and repeat the misses. I see people go out and run one or two passes and then practice missing their hard pass 4-5 times.

You must learn how to move the ski outbound after the second wake.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dirt
Typo

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Several comments:

1.       The purpose of “strength” is to maintain effective body position.  If you maintain the position of someone like Nate or Charlie, increasing your strength will provide very little increase in buoy count.

2.       Every skier is only as strong as their individual weakest link.  If you have a bad/weak back, sore knee, weak forearms, weak core, etc. that will be the first cause of losing effective body position and strengthening that particular area can yield huge improvements.

3.       Strength and endurance go hand in hand.  If you can only maintain effective position for 2 passes before you get pooped and break at the wakes or around the buoy, then an overall fitness program can again yield significant results.  If you are “strong” enough to ski 10 passes in good body position, then you have the opportunity really focus on technique – and that’s where the real benefit to being “strong” lies.

[ghutch]

@twhisperI agree watching slalom videos definitely helps. I study various skiers as much as I can and from as many different angles as possible. Watching from just the pylon will not tell the whole story. And ski/lean angle looks totally different from another viewpoint. The skier is moving so quick it also really helps to slow the videos down and pause them to study over. I have learned alot from watching videos and look forward to my next set in order to practice something else I have noticed. 

Funny story about Jason P. I was lucky enough to be in the boat while he skied for exhibition at the INT Nationals in Bakersfield several years ago. He handed me his rope and I asked him if he wanted to start at 15? (I knew who he was. I was just messing with him) He gave me a real funny look and just smiled at me. His driver was quick to say  "No he'll start at 32. He's a pro". I thought it was funny

[Dano]

 Strength and stability likely help you no matter what sport you are doing and being lighter seems like an obvious advantage, but knowledge is at the top of the list too. @twhisper has a great website www.trainwithterrywinter.com loaded with great tutorials, videos, and a forum for questions and answers.  It’s a tremendous resource and value at only $19/mth.  A lot of the videos are of TW himself side by side with another skier.   so you do get to see an amazing skiers movements compared with explanations of why he is achieving a higher level.  To me this is step one of improving.   You have to know what you are trying to accomplish.   

[LLUSA]

Look at Regina enough said

[jimbrake]

@twhisper - I know you're strong. I saw you do an impressive thing last summer at regionals - you fell at 39 (were understandably not pleased), the boat came back to get you because there was going to be a runoff, and you grabbed the side of the boat and muscled up with your ski on. I looked at the guy next to me on shore and we both said "holy shit". That was gymnast strength. Combined with the fluid skills of Jason P and that makes you a world class skier. 

 

[chaloux]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:54 AM, twhisper said:

Buttery Smooth JaP

 

Wow, that is incredible to watch. Thanks for sharing.

[RichardDoane]

he makes it look so effortless, good habits to develop,  but where is Jason now ?

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

I'm pretty sure hes lived in France for a lot of years. @RichardDoane. Terry will probably know more. 

[lpskier]

Andy spent considerable time in the gym and could lift a lot of weight. I disagree with anyone that says bench pressing or triceps work or whatever is irrelevant to your skiing. To have a balanced body, it’s very important to work out the muscles we don’t need to ski just as much as those we do need. If you allow weakness to exist, injury will figure out how to exploit that weakness.
 

I suspect that few  pro skiers don’t incorporate serious strength training as part of their overall ski plan. Skiing is a stew and there are many ingredients that go in the pot. Strength training is at a minimum the carrots. Maybe even the potatoes and the onions. I will concede that technique is the meat and is the primary ingredient, but meat alone is not a balanced meal 
 

@ColeGiacopuzzi “Skiing is 80% mental and the other half is physical.” Yogi Berra, with some poetic license. 

[Jordan]

Nate has said in the past that he doesn't go to the gym. He claims all of his training takes place on the water. I think strength helps you recover when you get out of position.  Someone pointed out that if you ski like Nate or Charlie (and built like them) you don't need much strength.

I woul bet a ton of 35/38 off men are much stronger than pro women skiers who are much better.

[LOTW]

Everyone is built differently, it looks like Will and Freddy, and most others at the top, hit the gym a bit so they must do it for a reason. Steve I. and Elizabeth train a lot from what I've seen. And yes, Nate is looking more and more like he does not hit the gym, will it catch up with him? Like it's been said, a top athlete needs to be well rounded and natural ability will only take you so far for so long. If you want to be at the top of any sport, you need to do a lot of work everywhere. For the average dude who just wants to ski or??? How good do you want to be? If you're hard on the darts, pizza and beer, you're probably not where you could be.

[Adam Caldwell]

I think this conversation can go back to equipment and technology....

Ride a ski too small for your size, and you'll need to be crazy strong to run shortline.

Ride a ski almost too big for your size, and you'll need really good technique, but potentially less 'strength'.

 

 

[DW]

Don't forget grip strength, how often does the handle slip out in the spring training runs.  I'll venture a guess that the 'skinny' guys on the pro tour or skiers that spend every day on the water are surprisingly strong even if wiry.  That much time on the water can be a partial substitute for the gym and I agree technique is king.

[bkreis]

this is so not complicated...hire me and you'll have zero issues...lol..seriously! @lpskier

[lpskier]

I worked out with @bkreis program for several winters. He’d send the workouts and I’d do the sweating in my basement. First class and highly recommended. 

[Deep11]

Been a while since checked the forum - loads of interesting comments. I suppose my question may not have been specific enough? In terms of “how strong do we need to be to run short line” I think a “correlation” rather than “causation” is what I’m thinking about. It’s not so much how strong do you need to be, but once you can run short line, how strong are you? That might then give the winter gym training some meaning.
 
Thinking about the best exercises to build muscle for a sport, “specificity” trumps everything. Meaning if you do the sport correctly then you will develop the best conditioning and strength for the sport in question. Could explain why Nate doesn’t look like a beast, if he is technically doing everything as close to ideal as possible, he will only be developing the muscle strength necessary to manage the loads he’s experiencing. The more muscular skiers are either in the gym, doing other sports or taking loads that are less than ideal.
Thinking this through seems to further support the idea for free-skiing.
Free-skiing, with the mindset for developing the correct rhythm and timing with the boat, may be the closest we can get to focusing on the best strength training for the sport.

 

[MDB1056]

I’m on the side of technique being king as well. Nate, Charlie and others show that extreme conditioning isn’t necessary, but as noted above they are obviously strong enough for the requirements. An interview Nate did with Matt Rini noted he’s accumulated a box full of bent handles over the years, again validating the strength is there . In another Nate interview many have seen he notes he picked up a full pass when he moved to a 67 vs  66 -  further supporting his technique. He’s indeed working hard but at the right times.  We’ve also all seen so many pics of great skiers finger tipping the handle at full extension so we know death grip strength isn’t needed at all times, but it also again validates technique. Not to take away from power skiers at all but only to support the point it’s not required to excel. I continue to point to Dane M as one of the best current examples to watch as he’s not tall and thin either, but is incredibly smooth and efficient in his style.  To the above comment on free skiing I’m also a huge proponent of doing it regularly as well for just overall good conditioning for our sport. Go make some 10 minute runs and see if you’re winded when you drop. The BEST conditioning and technique routine you can do for this sport. Helps your body and your head . 

Edited February 4, 2023 by MDB1056

[jjackkrash]

I believe Powerlifting strength can be a curse if your technique is not spot on.  I have had similar conversations with some elite/Olympic level coaches in other body-position-reliant sports and the consensus seems to be that if you don't get an efficient technique down cold before you get strong its very difficult to progress to elite levels because you tend to rely on that physical strength instead of efficient movement.  All things being equal, it's obviously better to be stronger, but I'd bet Charlie Ross was already pretty efficient and had his form nailed before he hit puberty.  

[Adam Caldwell]

@jjackkrash Ill say for sure that is 100000% in true in this sport as well.   Im a good example of that...and still learning how to ski like a stick figure vs a gorilla.

Worth noting....I've seen a couple young guns who slayed it at for while start to struggle as they got stronger because they could piss off ZO a lot more.....

This sport certainly takes a unique set of attributes and will humble ANYONE.

Edited February 4, 2023 by adamhcaldwell

[ktm300]

I thought all the strength training was so we could survive the crashes...  @adamhcaldwell?

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@ktm300 yes that's definitely a benefit.  I distinctly remember some 30 odd years ago reading about one of the top speed barefooters who had an intense weight training program specifically to keep all the body parts together in the event of a crash.  A short time before, one of the other top guys was killed in a high speed crash.  That was 100mph+ insanity.  So while you probably won't die doing an AirCaldwell, your recovery time will absolutely be better if your body is "stronger".

[Adam Caldwell]

@ktm300 - ski crashes and car crashes! lol  It definitely helps!

[DW]

To add to the waterski vernacular, a 9 or 10 (of 10) crash is now an 'Air Caldwell'.  💥 🤣

[MarcusBrown]

Sat down with Jenny to discuss this very thread, in a bit more detail: