AWSA Survey - Zero Based - permit all adult Men 36 and Women 34

[Horton]

First of all did everyone see this in their email?

This proposal would basically allow any skier at any USAWS event to ski at any speed between the minimum and maximum. If Men 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 want to ski 36 then they can ski 36. If they want to ski 30 then they can ski at 30.  Do whatever you want and your score will come out of the ZBS matrix. 

The other point of confusion is is about ELR. If this is approved then at EVERY event under USAWS your scores go into the USAWS as per the ZBS matrix. The rub is that the score that goes into the IWWF will reflect international rules. So  as a M4 if I ski 36 and run 4 @ 38 my USAWS score would be 106 but my IWWF score would be 100* because 34mph / 55k is my max speed for international. I would lose 6 balls. So if you care more about your internationals score then you need to always ski at your international max. If you do not care about your international rank then you should ski at the speed you prefer. 

(* or whatever the international score is for 4 @ 38 34mph / 55k )

FYI - Question #3 is not a question. 

Make sure to take the survey once for each member in your family.

 

[swbca]

My only insight into this is the lack of equivalency between Rope Length increments and Speed increments creating a scoring system based on strategy and not strictly skill.

What about this ?

Edited January 13, 2023 by swbca

[Bruce_Butterfield]

This topic was hashed to death a few years ago and should be somewhere in the archives.  Short version is that its a really bad idea.  ZBS is fine for skiers who want to shorten before max speed, but the 6 buoy delta between 36 to 34, or 34 to 32 is NOT accurate.  So we have an apples to oranges playing field for competitive tournaments (Regionals and Nationals).

You can make the argument that it allows skiers to utilize different strategy, but that would be similar to comparing a skier in Florida to a skier in Maine and picking the winner on how they ski.

For a "real world" example, lets say a M4 skier can run 35 off at 36 and get 2 at 38.  But at 34 he normally only gets 4 at 38, so he scores 4 more buoys skiing at 36 than 34.  This would effectively force the top skiers at Nationals (M3 through M6 or so) to ski at 36 or be handicapped.  

Bad idea.

[MISkier]

Here is the aforementioned death hashing (it's very, very long):

 

 

[swbca]

@MISkier@Bruce_Butterfield    AWSA sent this survey to members by mail January 2023 . . . Any history on how much bearing this survey might have on possibly changing the rules ?  I agree its a bad idea.  

[JackQ]

Unfortunately, AWSA pulled a buoy handicap out of their ass, because is is easy, not based on facts.  

If skiers want to go slower than the max, great!  Skiing above the division max with an arbitrary 6 buoy handicap would result in me (and others) having to ski at 34 or possibly 36 to be competitive. The risk of injury would be much higher.  Though it may be delusional conceit,  I believe that I have been fortunate to held up better physically and in better physical condition than most of my peers and would do as well or better in comparison. But would result in all that skiers at the faster speeds would “fall apart” sooner and be injured more frequently.  Additionally we should be more aligned to IWSF not deviating in more areas as basic as the speed we compete at.  This is an absolutely terrible idea!  

I did a comparison of skiers that changed speed, last year at higher speed, compared to  1st year at slower speed.  The increase in buoy count was much heigher for the 28 and below skiers than for 35 and up. This make perfect sense as timing, handle path and body position is more critical factor than speed as the rope gets shorter and shorter.  I  recall that I looked at four different year groups, and the average was 3 and fraction buoys.    My experience reflects that, my R tournament best went from 5@39@34mph to 2@41@32, Practice best 2@41 to 3@41.  So I would have to run (according to ZBS)  4 or 5@ 41 to compete with myself at 34.    This proposal is from those who do not know the reality of skiing/competing or don't care. 

[motoskier]

I have never been a fan of zero based  scoring. I agree with swbca it is a lack of equivalency. It makes scoring hard and obscures the ranking system. 

[MISkier]

@JackQ, I think it’s a misconception that AWSA set a handicap.  The ZBS matrix is merely the buoys you would have to run to get to specific line length and speed combination.  As an exercise, start at the minimum speed and long line, then increase speed until you hit 34 mph and complete long line at that speed.  Sum up all the buoys for those passes.  Now, start shortening until you reach 100 buoys and see what the rope length is.  Do the same approach for 36 mph. It’s is just the math required to progress through each line length and speed incrementation no matter which path you take (faster or shorter).

if AWSA is guilty of anything, it is that they actually did not implement any handicap at all and just went with counting buoys and assigning those scores directly without applying any factor.  They didn’t invent the math to assign those scores.  They just counted and added.

[JackQ]

@MISkierBut it is a handicap system in reality.  If we ski in the same division and you run 3@35 at 34mph, and I run 3 1/2@32 at 26mph, you lose.

 

 

[kc]

I did an eye roll when I opened the survey. Agree with everything @Bruce_Butterfieldand @JackQsaid! Kris LaPoint even mentioned in his recent podcast conversation with Tyler Boyd, that there’s less than a pass difference when you drop the speed. Enough with this topic AWSA!

[Horton]

I do not really understand the pushback. The biggest problem is about skiers being forced to ski slower when they get older. For some skiers the slow down is welcomed and for others it sucks. I suppose at a national competitive level this new rule suggestion could change the playing field a little but if everyone is under the same rules it is fair. 

[ALPJr]

I’m a big fan of ZBS. It’s why I returned to tournaments - I know I’m not going to win or set records and can ski at 32mph instead of 34, minimize the chance for injury and have fun shortening the rope a few times on a good day. I’m in the camp that thinks the max speeds are set with the safety of the athlete as a priority over performance. I understand the other view and perhaps those skiers could ski in another division like open or masters?

Edited January 14, 2023 by ALPJr

[Horton]

@ALPJr what about the women in the older divisions that feel that when they are forced to slow down the wakes are now bigger?

[ALPJr]

Good point @Horton . Idk when I take a 30 mph pass the wakes don’t feel much different than 32 mph. In my current view safety trumps performance and helps with the integrity of the sport. But again it’s just my current view and I’m open to other thoughts. 

[MISkier]

1 hour ago, JackQ said:

@MISkierBut it is a handicap system in reality.  If we ski in the same division and you run 3@35 at 34mph, and I run 3 1/2@32 at 26mph, you lose.

@JackQ, I don't think that math works.  3@35 at 34 mph is 93 buoys.  3.5@32 at 26 mph is 69.5 buoys.  I think I would still win.

If your example was meant to be 3.5@32 at 36 mph, then it would 93.5 buoys.  And, I would be fine with losing with my 34 mph score, in that instance, because I believe there is a certain difficulty factor in running the course at a higher speed and it would have been my choice to do it or not.  If it wasn't somewhat harder to ski at a higher speed, everyone would be doing it until they're 80 (or older) and start doing it when they are 8.

Edited January 13, 2023 by MISkier

[MISkier]

@ALPJr, you can only ski in Open or Masters if you have an Elite Rating, so that locks out the average (more or less) skier who just wants to select their most comfortable speed.

[JackQ]

3 hours ago, JackQ said:

@MISkierBut it is a handicap system in reality.  If we ski in the same division and you run 3@35 at 34mph, and I run 3 1/2@32 at 26mph, you lose.

 

 

Ops, Typo.  Meant to be 3 1/2@36 MPH not 26

[lpskier]

The proposal to raise the M9 speed from 49k to 52k was defeated at this weekend’s BOD meeting. 

[RAWSki]

14 hours ago, lpskier said:

The proposal to raise the M9 speed from 49k to 52k was defeated at this weekend’s BOD meeting. 

What were the other proposals up for review?

[lpskier]

Nothing particularly interesting to the majority of folks on BOS. The bulk of the proposed rule changes pertained to dual  citizens competing on US teams and at Nationals.