Jump to content

What's that special thing that Joel Howley does?


Horton
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Baller

He maintains building angle and load through the first wake, behind the boat and off the second wake. But at the finish of the turn/smear he achieves almost 90 degrees to the boat!? with tip up and progressively builds the angle and load back at center line using his front foot as the excelerator.

Ernie Schlager

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

Looks to me like he's keeping his tip in the water coming around the buoy, but then going to the tail immediately after to get more angle (as was discussed previously in another thread as being crazy). But maybe not so crazy after all:)However, don't know if he's doing it on purpose, or just gets a little out of control and then recovers nicely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@Horton If I were Disagreeing, I would've tapped Disagree , wtf does "stays connected to the boat" mean?If this weren't Joel and everyone didn't know he can run 41, you would have millions of, You need to do this-and-this posts. His position in the work zone is pretty much perfect, nothing else matters/can be done 10 different ways.Honestly, he proves @MarcusBrown 's wheelie thesis (the one everyone completely ripped apart)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

@Drago terminology always seems to be an issue in this sport...

The phrase "stays connected to the boat" means ( to me ) that the skier keeps load in the rope after edge change. At some point we all let the handle separate from our hips. The later and slower the handle separates from the skiers hips the more "connected he/she is to the boat".

My theory on Joel is that he does a number of unconventional things in his skiing & the one thing he does as well or better then the rest of the elite skiers in the world is stay connected to the boat after edge change. I do not have current video of Joel but in the videos I can find he seems to pull a little long to 1 and separate a little earlier there and from 2 ball on his ability stay extra connected is second to none.

Notice the way the handle rotates clockwise going to 1/3/5 - I think this is part of an effort to ride the handle farther into his On Side.

 Goode  KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

IMO “staying connected to the boat “‘ means keeping a tight line, which Joel does not do, slow down any of the videos ( even 35) and he’s got a lot of slack coming off most every turn. I’m a huge Joel fan and love his tenacity as the guy takes some amazing hits and keeps going, but compare him to other great LFF skiers like CP or Dane M who on the same lines are 2x smoother and more efficient and with tight lines and perfectly stacked positions. Again I’m a huge Joel fan and hope we see a lot more of him in 23, love his coaching insights and as a person seems absolutely top notch, but his type of skiing is more as a fighter/ scrapper like a Freddie or Joel Poland . To me that’s what he does best. He holds on to almost anything .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

This is crazy. Why are we talking about what a guy that’s never run 41 in a tournament and what he does so good.From my memory, which gets worse every year, this subject has never come up aboutFreddieWillDaneCPAnd like 7 or 8 guys more that have run 41.Some many times.

What’s the new love for howley?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

@mbabiash it's not love for Holly it's analyzing a guy who appears to be an outlier. It's a current obsession of mine to look at skiers at very high level but do so in a way that is outside my thinking.

 Goode  KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller_

Handle control between the wake and buoy. Plain and simple. Counterrotation, reaching forward, flipping the handle and other subtleties are in the noise.

MO on the "wheelie" is largely an effect of the high / ridged hardshell. That much connection between the ski and shin sucks in the turn (wheelie is a side effect), but once you get the ski down and pointed in the right direction, the hardshell benefits are huge.

If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

@MDB1056 I think if you could measure load on the rope, Joel's tension after edge change is amongst the highest out to the ball line. Your observation that he doesn't hold a tight line all the way to Apex is true but I think that is actually a different subject.

 Goode  KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller_

I had high very ridged hard shells...What @Bruce_Butterfield said. Terry Winter may give JH a run for his money when it comes to line load after edge change. When I "do something" with the handle after edge change (rotate and/or squeeze) the outcome is always better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller_

When I watch skiers who clearly power their 39 off runs looking like they are on the edge of pushing the limits of what's possible, I recall the recent slow motion "replays" of Charlie Ross at 39 off who made it look like an effortless cruise in a prelim and finals. Little slack, no strain, never late, no impressive recoveries needed.

Possibly off topic, but the contrast in technique may be relevant to the original question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Elite Skier

One aspect that helps Joel is that he is not fighting the boat to tilt or rotate his shoulders as he accelerates into the wakes. This assists in his ability to maintain the connection/handle control as he swings out to the buoy. While he is an aggressive skier, he is also very controlled at the right moments.

Tilting and/or rotating the shoulders into the wakes tends to increase the amount of load while also preventing the hips from being fully aligned with the shoulders and ankles. This extra loaded and mis-aligned position leads to a greater rebound force that usually rips the body into separation and pulls the skier too far to the inside of the ski's edge. Instead of being able to maintain connection and balance (front to back as well as side to side) the skier loses the rope/handle control and takes a fast, narrow path to the buoy.

8lrnjmuspx46.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

Hi All,

Enjoyed reading this thread. Was interesting to see some of the comments prior to Horton revealing his opinion. I believe Horton is spot on. In comparison to other elite skiers my edge changes are significantly better than my turns and slightly better than my wake crossings.

Below I have had a crack at responding to some comments while also paraphrasing everyone to meet my own agenda.

@ral - BindingsMy stiff boot has actually decreased the effectiveness of my edge change which is a sacrifice I have been willing to accept given that it has increased the effectiveness of my turns.

@Vtmecheng - Stays connectedHorton's comments on this later in the thread are very accurate. I am very heavy on the line through my edge change however I rotate through my turn free from the line.

@braceMaker - Ski controlThis is all I really care about. The only time I think about body position is on my easy passes when in training. The only thing I care about on 39 and 41 is placing the ski where it needs to go for me to move in the direction I want to go. Getting the ski in the right spot often requires you to sacrifice your body position.

@scuppers - Early edge changeCompared to other elite skiers I edge change late because my turns are often questionable.

@ReallyGottaSki - Loads hardYep… This seems accurate.

@VONMAN - Tuns 90 degreesMy ski will get to 90 exiting the turns however this is to bleed speed and when I begin accelerating ski angle is much less.

@Than_Bogan - No special magicNope… In comparison to my tuns there is some special magic in my edge change.

@Vernon Reeve - Tip in then out through the turnYep, seems accurate. Mostly intentional.

@slalom frog - Tight turn radiusCompared to other elite skiers my turn radius is a tad long.

@Drago - Work zone is all that mattersNarrrrr… I wish this was true haha.

@coach3 - Recovers fastYep. Your other comments were also very accurate.

@Skoot1123 - Chest pointed down the lakeNot sure about this. I intentionally drop my shoulder more than most elite skiers.

@slow - Tall and stacked at 35offLol, yep.

@jhughes - Most bent back knee of any proMy raised rear boot causes that. I elevate it to mitigate poor ankle mobility.

@MDB1056 - Scraps hardYep, agree with all your comments. Cheers for the kind words.

@mbabiash - Why are we talking about such a dud skierLol. Valid point. Horton's response matches my thoughts.

@Bruce_Butterfield - Handle controlI have decent handle control. Clinchers have made it worse however they have helped me load earlier so I am keeping them for now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

Dunno - i got loads of poor mobility, not tall or stacked and definitely a dud skier, not coonected, no idea where my chest is pointed and all that But Joel - your'e the man after that world championship win in Malaysia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

Ok @JoelHowley let's talk theory. Can you explain why you do what you do? Are there key things you focus on to keep more connected? For skiers who struggle with this part of there skiing do you have tips?

 Goode  KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

I've suspected core strength is a big separator, between guys getting down to purple lines and the rest of us. As Joel's eating up the slack, he's using his core to drive the bottom of the ski down into the water. I think he is transferring so much energy to the ski in spite of the slack

For me in a similar situation, I would keep my ski down course a bit and burn width/time to lessen the hit, or I would tail out using my body weight instead of my core strength to take the hit but giving away ski surface area that can generate speed, or I would buckle at the waist giving all that energy back to the boat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

I know Horton’s original point has been let out of the bag but, I really like Joel’s high handle in the turns. It allows the ski to rotate well under the line and he’s back on the handle with both hands never really having to reach for it. I know most top skiers do this well, but that’s the first thing that jumped out to me. That and good line tension into the turn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@Cam Toe is lifted half inch and heel is lifted one inch.

@hortonI load harder off the second wake and carry more load through my edge change in comparison to other elite skiers because my turns have often put me slightly more down course heading into the first wake. When I get a cracking turn I load less off the second wake and look more like the other skiers.

I focus on doing a slow edge change. To do this I resist the centrifugal force trying to throw my ski out to the bank. My goal is to stay close to the handle curled up in a ball so that load I have generated is transferred into the rope and not wasted by bleeding speed at the end of a fast edge change when the ski slams onto the inside edge. I want to swing the handle high up on the boat. My release comes late. It feels like I sacrifice width and allow myself to be pulled narrow still staying close to the handle because I know there is no point reaching if the handle has not swung high enough.

Without watching the skier if I were to take a guess at how most people could take a step towards achieving this type of edge change I would say that generally very few skiers are even attempting to maintain full load through their edge change. Most have started to decrease their lean relative to the water well before the second wake and they have very little load to play with when edge changing. Admittedly if you load like I do into the second wake you will need to edge change like I do in order to not get ripped to the inside like a rag doll.

If you want to go fast around corners your first step must be to enter that corner flat out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

There's the action item nugget in the entire thread:

"generally very few skiers are even attempting to maintain full load through their edge change. Most have started to decrease their lean relative to the water well before the second wake and they have very little load to play with when edge changing."

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@Drago That thesis I think was spot on, the first time I heard that from MB was in one of his and Luzz's "coach the pros" podcasts and it was clearer there I think they were talking about Brook Baldwin's offside in the podcast with the premise if you aren't forward you cannot move back.

@JoelHowley that was what I see in it, as you come into the turn sometimes its wacky arm inflatable tube man but the ski is always positioned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...