Switching to RTP after 22 years double booted: health issue

[UWSkier]

Due to my hip anatomy, I've been having painful slalom starts in my right (back) hip in the upper posterior region. Turns out bigger guys tend to grow extra bone thickness at the top of our femurs where the ball meets the hip socket. With each deep start, I'm jamming that bony growth into my labrum and it's torn in two spots accordingly.

 

I have two options.

 

1) scope the hip, repair the labrum, and shave down the bone to repair the damage and prevent future damage. The downside of this is it's surgery and will be 6 months off the water

 

OR

 

2) go back to skiing how I learned as a kid (and skied into my 20s) by dragging my back leg and kicking in.

 

I'm going to go ahead and try option 2... should be interesting. I have a new binding setup on the way and am debating whether or not to go with a release. I've seen reports of injuries with and without releases so I'm kindof torn. I think I'll mount up without a release and try it for a bit first.

 

Anyone else made this switch, or dealt with back hip issues that weren't fixable with PT? (I did a ton of PT already)

[o2bnMaine]

I'm a fan of releases with RTP. With your hip situation, maybe check out the MOB? http://www.mobsystemrelease.com/

[jpwhit]

I made the switch about 5 years ago after 30 years of skiing with double boots. I learned with a toe plate and skied that way for the first 5 years. I didn't do it for health reasons, I switched because I was convinced it would help my skiing and I was tired of constantly dealing with cramps in my rear foot. Shortly after I switched, I also switched to a reflex front binding. I had too many cases of falls where I felt like I came close to injuring my front leg. Haven't had a single case of that with the releasable reflex in the front.

 

I'll have to say it wasn't the easiest transition. But I'm glad I stuck with it and feel like it's paid pretty significant dividends now. When I first switched I felt so insecure on the ski. I literally felt like I was going to fall off the ski.

[UWSkier]

I will document my progress and share any good OTF crashes since I video all my sets. Lol

[208maverick]

Let's compare notes later in the season. I've got 40+ yrs in double boots and am switching to a Radar HRT rear plate (picking it up tomorrow) to play with this summer so I can kick in. I'm 8 months into a new hip.

[Stevie Boy]

@UWSkier you will enjoy stepping off the back of the boat or the dock, there is a reason some Pros went back to RTP, there must be benefits.

[Buxrus]

@UWSkier, So kind of sideways off topic, but I have CAM injury with OA of both hips. I will do stem cell and PRP in Nov. I have also found Upright Health and Squat University on YouTube. These guys are awesome for stretching and strengthening for this type of hip condition. It has really helped reduce the pain and add flexibility.

I am RTP. You’ll do great. Good luck.

[RRGR]

I'm an OK slalom skier and made the switch 3 years ago. It took a bit to get used to, but I don't even think about it now. I moved to the reflex and RTP (Connelly Sync RTP) because of an unrelated ankle injury, I wouldn't go back. I really like that it will release in a lot more fall cases than when I would come out of my double boot. That would have prevented me getting stitches in my eye lid quite a few years ago... I have yet to have an early release on it.

[UWSkier]

@Buxrus Mine is CAM impingement also. I'll check out that youtube channel. In discussing regenerative therapies, docs I'm working with say they work great on tendons, not so great on getting a detached labrum to stick back to the bone. I have two torn tendons in addition to the labrum so I'll probably end up with PRP for those. I'm a hot mess.... lol

[Buxrus]

@UWSkier, yikes you are a mess. agree with PRP and connective tissues. The stem is for OA if you have it. I did some research about the labrum surgeries……literally about 50/50 surg. Vs. PT and stretching.

Good luck with RTP. I feel like the RTP made me better skier by not using my rear leg so much.

I have my RTP close to my FB. Tried it back and was putting way too much pressure and wt on rear of ski.

[Mazda]

@UWSkier I was in a similar position this Spring where I wanted to switch to an rtp after many years in double boots. Because of bad back issues I was advised to do one-leg-out deepwater starts . After reading a lot of advice on starting with one leg out (there is a lot of material on this forum) I bought an rtp and was ready to go. On my very first attempt I tore my hamstring and I have been out for 7 weeks. So be careful how you approach this. Other than strengthening your hamstrings and warming up properly (this I did) you need to keep your leg bent as the boat starts to pull you out and do not push against the water to get up (this I didn't) something that we double booters tend to do. this is what I have been told anyway, I have yet to try again.

 

Maybe someone here who knows better can help with suggestions on how to get up with one leg out. Good luck and hope the switch works out for you.

[UWSkier]

Bummer @Mazda. Get better! I'm not worried about the leg out starts. I get up that way every once in a while when starting on a trick ski I goof around on. Just have to let that front leg compress into your chest and use the top of your back foot to help push yourself up so the front leg isn't doing all the work. But will definitely work the hammies just to be safe!

[Wayne]

I made the switch to a RTP due to knee issues on my back leg last year. I start with both feet in so I cannot comment on dragging a foot and kicking in. I run my RTP so tight I doubt I could kick in anyway.

 

With regards to skiing, I should have made the change years ago. For me the transition was extremely quick and easy but it’s probably due to the fact o can get my body in a good position again without cringing pain in my knee.

 

Sucks getting old.

[OldGuysRule]

I had to do just the opposite! I skied coming up on one leg for 60 years! I learned that way skiing early in my career behind 40 hp outboard motors! It was easier and quicker and less drag to come up on one leg. I started having issues with hamstring cramps at night and even pulled the hamstring a couple of times so decided to put on my big boy pants and learned to come up with both feet in. I've done it now for a couple of years and still not comfortable with it but......no more hamstring cramps or pulled hamstrings. You can teach an old dog new tricks! (Mens 9 Skier)

[olddog]

I switched to getting up with one leg out for back reasons years back. I let the boat crush me into the ski fairly well and have never injured a hammy (and my friends will tell you I have tight hammys). For some reason the HO RTP works best for me to kick in tightly and reliably on shorter setup lakes, but I'm sure that's different for each person.

[Sethro]

I made the switch 6 years ago. First few sets were a challenge to say the least. But confidence soon came back and in the end was really a good move for me. I also had to switch my grip two years ago to right palm up. Also a challenge for a while but caught on quick enough. Haven’t tried switching my front foot yet……..

[OldboyII]

Nice video of one foot start

 

 

[skialex]

Awkward moment for the guy at the ladder trying to pee…

[gcam4]

@UWSkier I had surgery 7 years ago. One of the best things I have ever done! If you have questions about it, send me a pm and we can talk.

[UWSkier]

Well I had my first sets with the RTP today and it went pretty well. Getting up that way for the first time in 21 years was a little shaky the first couple times but I got less water in the face than I had been double booted, and the drag time is way lower. Best of all was no hip pain.

 

As for the skiing, I was going about 80pct of my max by the end of the day. Onside gonna take a little adjusting but offside was automatic. That tells me what I already know. I push on the ski too much on my onside and ride the ski through my offside.

[UWSkier]

First time on the course with the RTP and Reflex/Vapor front setup. It took me 6 tries to run my opener but towards the end of my day I ran it 3x in a row and 4/5 times. I'm the type who turns his onside by pushing too much on the back foot, so this is taking a little getting used to. I'm going to head back to WI to be on the lake for several days in a row where I can just drill like heck in open water. Hopefully that sorts me out. I love the Reflex/Vapor front setup too BTW. Took some helpful tips to get it dialed in but it's sweet now that I have everything set correctly.

[BraceMaker]

@skialex hey just getting the soap out of my boots....

You wear a hardshell...

[C5Quest]

@UWSkier. What kind of set up tips are you talking about for the Reflex/Vapor combo? Im about to do the same thing and go with an RTP as well.

 

[UWSkier]

@C5Quest when I put my release together I had about 0.9mm gap between top of toe bar and the binding so a smarter person than I said to wrap some tape around the bar to snug it up. Worked like a charm. Next issue I had was release would slip off back of the boot too easily. Reflex mounts have two sets of holes for the release to mount into. Moving to the front holes made a world of difference. She's good and solid now.

[carlm6298]

Are you getting up out of the water with the new binders pain free? Also, with yr previous setup was the pain in your hip while getting out of the water or after you skied?

[owennibley]

I am in a similar situation. I've skied double boots for close to 20 years and last year because of back issues tried the RTP. It was an epic disaster. However, here is my theory on why it didn't work out.

 

I started using the RTP at the very END of the season. I was in the best ski shape and was skiing really well. Insert the RTP and I lost about 2 passes. Very frustrating. So I chalked it up to the RTP and stayed with DB.

 

Well, the start of this season, I knew I couldn't continue with deep water starts with DB, so I went back to the RTP at the BEGINNING of this season and if I lose passes because of it, so be it. At least my back will feel better.

 

Well, I'm back to hitting my normal passes with a RTP this season. I think because I had such a long off season to forget all my technique, starting the season with the RTP and relearning the nuances of the RTP from the beginning of the season really helped me get used to it.

[UWSkier]

@carlm6298 pain free starts and way less effort to get up. Pain was on starts.

[UWSkier]

Was thinking more about this last night while talking to my dad about the sensations of skiing this way again and thought it feels like playing basketball wearing one Air Jordan and one flip flop. I don't quite understand how this is a better way to ski but the results tend to speak for themselves...

[jpwhit]

I mentioned feeling like falling off the ski in my post. I think that's what you're talking about. That completely goes away after a little while of getting use to the RTP. I don't think it really means that much other than the feeling is just different than how a double boots feel.

[Rw3]

GreAt to hear your hip is better. I am trying to make the switch as well for back leg sided low back pain. I didn’t know if anyone had any recommendations on a RTP that had a deeper heel footbed that gives some sort of lateral support? Thanks.

[503Kento]

@rw3 take a look at the Radar HRT, might be what your looking for.

[swbca]

If not already mentioned, the RADAR hybrid gives you some of the stability and security of a full boot but you can kick into it.

 

The only odd thing is, the 2021 version I had was made with a significantly high Left/Right symmetrical arch support molded into the foam sole. It was like they didn't know the arch is only on 1 side of your foot. It was painful to have it pressing up on the bone structure on the out-side of the foot.

 

Like some others I carved out the wrong side of arch support with a serrated bread knife. It took some time to get it perfect.

 

 

[Rw3]

Thanks for the advice. I tried kicking in to HRT but had difficulty. I’ll try again. Thanks !

[swbca]

@Rw3 You are right . . "Kicking" isn't right word. I would get my toes into the front and then work my way forward. A bit of a pain but eventually I got better at it. Then I got rid of it and went back to a full boot.

[Slalom.Steve]

@Rw3 @swbca

I use the HRT and kick in, but I bought the lace version, as someone told me it's better for kicking in than the BOA. But then I took it a step further and replaced the laces with the bungee laces from the lower part of a T-Factor boot. It works great, cause the bungee can stretch a bit when you're kicking in but tighten back down once your foot is in. Once I get it set on a good tightness I just leave it, maybe very occasionally a small tighten if it feels like its gotten looser.

(I tuck the excess cord at the top under one of the lower laces, but took it out to make the picture clearer)

 

[Rw3]

Sweet. Thanks !

[BraceMaker]

@Rw3 there is an extra large size, I have an 11.5 foot and cannot kick in to the regular version. if you're above about maybe an 11 - you might want the XL version or atleast try it.

[DaveD]

Just an FYI, the top of the heal of the HRT will wear from putting your foot in. I've had mine for 3 years now and am in the middle of repairing the tear in the foam and cloth caused by my heal rubbing against the top edge.

[aupatking]

I see trick skiers with a rear toe with a strap. I’m sure it would be awkward to reach down and pull the strap on after getting up, but I don’t think it would be impossible. Unlikely practical for short setups like most ski lakes seems most likely. Does anyone know where to source such a strap? I’ve been wanting to try one for Slalom

[Ski_Dad]

@UWSkier what RTP did you settle on - thinking of switching to a different RTP

[UWSkier]

Boa artp. Jury is still out on whether I love it. It's comfy but I don't know if I like the fat footbed.

[UWSkier]

It is starting to "click" for me with the RTP. As I mentioned before, for the majority of my life skiing, I've cheated on my onside a little bit by pushing and cranking the turn with my back foot to put the ski between me and the boat to accelerate cross-course. While you can definitely ski this way, it's not the most efficient way to ski. I know this and was working on riding more of a front foot off and on the past few seasons.

 

The RTP instantly punishes you if you do not ride your front foot through your onside turn properly. It punishes you if you let the ski get ahead of you off the second wake and can't climb the ski to turn properly.

 

As with most things skiing, if you're having a problem in one area, it means you're probably screwing up something in the step before the problem step. For me, it was really focusing on feeling what I need to feel off the second wakes in my swing up to my widest point rather than "auto piloting" this section. When I do that, I stay up over the ski through edge change and pre-turn and don't need to work to get over my front foot.

 

All that is to say, the RTP has removed one of my cheat/crutches I've used for years and is forcing me to be a better skier via instant feedback (in the form of a dogpoo onside turn) if I'm not doing it right.

[jjackkrash]

Damn you UWSkier. I've known I need to ditch the doubles for a while but I just dread the thought of making the change. Ugg.

[Ski_Dad]

@uwskier i use the ARTP Boa as well.

[Rw3]

I ended up modifying a hrt that a friend had laying around and removing the back heel (prob 2 inches off the back of the boot on each side) I skied today for first time with it and was awesome. I think being able to lift my heel getting up makes a big difference in terms of my back. But then still having all the lateral support made it so I honestly didn’t skip a beat in regards to my skiing, as I have been double boot my whole life. Might be a good way to transition to a true RTP if decide to. Plus I was able to kick in super easy when I tried dragging. Just thought I’d share.

[UWSkier]

Bringing this back up... I'm growing pretty frustrated with the RTP. It's just too easy for my heel to slide around, which makes me default to a defensive position, which tends to end my ski ride early. I have a big foot and need to kick in so not sure if HRT is going to work for me. I'm thinking of ditching the fattie Boa ARTP and going to a rubber with a molded heel cup to lock my heel into so I can't slide it laterally.

This spring I was feeling pretty sure I'd run 32 at least once this summer. Since changing I've only gotten into 28 two or three times. Kindof a lost year for me. :(

[slow]

I use double boots to prevent hamstring issues. I’ve seen 3 people tear their hamstring dragging a foot getting up.

[Killer]

Ive been on dbl boots basically since I started skiing 30 years ago. Been on vapor/rs1 boots since they came out nearly 15 years ago.

My rear boot I keep the bungee loose and sometimes it loops off the clip, and the loose feeling makes completing the pass incredibly difficult. I can't see liking anything less supportive, especially an rtp.

I'm thinking of going to a reflex release in front for the new vapor hardshell and will need a different rear binding.

Seriously considering trying the new venom rear boot.

[owennibley]

This was the first full year using a rtp. It took almost half the season to get really comfortable getting up with one foot out but now it's so much easier on my back I'm glad I switched. I can drop each pass now instead of every 2 or 3.

It was very foreign and different but around 30ish sets in it was the new normal.

It does put more stress on the front leg hamstring but a good warm up and dynamic stretch will help considerably as well as a good driver.

Some people just can't make the rtp work.... but I'm glad I stuck it out. My back thanks me.

[BraceMaker]

@slow I two foot in on RTP and trick skis and rear boots. No reason to drag in a RTP if you don't want to.

Just free ski awhile with your RTP and you'll be set.