Setting up new Vapor boot

[Broussard]

@Deanoski The Silvretta (Reflex) release is often used by skiers with a RTP since in the event of a fall the rear foot is all but guaranteed to come out, so having a mechanical release provides a more consistent release than bungee laces.

[Horton]

@mcskier41 it is simple, proven & safe. Pre-releases only happen when the system is not set up right. Not rocket surgery.

[ski6jones]

I know it's not statistically meaningful but I've seen three broken ankles in my waterski career and all were on reflex style release. So that's a pass for me.

[UWSkier]

Reviving this thread.  For others on this setup, how tight are you running your Reflex spring?  I have my heel locked down tight with the heel screws, so there is next to zero motion of the boot shell, but I'm experiencing random pre-releases.  I suspect it has something to do with the fact I'm in the biggest boot they make, but running at "7" on the Reflex spring scale, I've had a handful of these events.  Fortunately, I know what it feels like now and know to stop skiing before I die.  Wishbone bar on my back toes = stop skiing.

This is my first release system.  Any tricks from the Reflex veterans I'm not considering?

[Horton]

@UWSkier I stand behind this old video. I personally NEVER use the numbers. I test and re-test. 

Here is the Andy Mapple version of the same idea

 

[skialex]

@Hortoni find the dry land testing very valuable, it can show if the system works right. If it’s too easy or not, to release. But, the muscle strength of the legs don’t replicate the mass of the skier when falling down. I’m not very good at making it release on the dock, I have to try really hard. That being said, when I moved to the radar boot, it was impossible to make the system relaese at 4.5-5 that I had my reflex. I had to go down to 4 which sounds low, but radar cuff is much softer even though I use a lace and the Velcro strap and have zero movement inside the shell. @UWSkier I’m my experience, a lower DIN is needed on the radar boot, are you sure that everything is set up right? Mine sat perfectly on a size 10 reflex plate, but when I setup a size 11 on a radar plate , it wasn’t that easy. At first it had some play and I had to move to the forward hole on the bases… I would try a second release mechanism if you have one. Sometimes it’s what it takes to solve the problem, it might have an issue that is not visible.

[Horton]

@skialex when you change boots you need to totally disregard what ever number setting you used with your old boot. The boot itself is part of the release mechanism. It is NOT a DIN number.

I have a lot of binding systems in the work shop. On some the number might be in the 2 range and others in the 6 range. In all cases they release about the same. This is because the number is a terrible indicator of the force needed to release. If you use the method Andy and I use above you will be as safe as you can be.

[UWSkier]

I think I have something else going on.  I can't forcibly step out of the release as it's set now, so the vertical motion is fine (actually tighter than it needs to be).  The mechanism seems to slide off the back of the boot without much force though.  One finger with moderate pressure slides it off.  I don't know if it's catching some spray or what's pulling it off, but it's not usually coming off from some violent action.  I was in the middle of a routine offside turn this morning when I felt the wishbone hit my toes, so I pulled up on that turn and ended my pass.  I feel like a weak rubber band around the cuff of the boot to the release would be all I'd need to hold it in place.

UPDATE: I started researching old snow ski forum posts about the Silvretta release mechanism and found something that said heel height is critical to the proper functioning of the system.  I went in the garage and fashioned a 1/16" shim and the improvement is dramatic.  I believe this is due to two factors.  First, you get more spring engagement with a slightly raised heel.  Second, the orientation of the heel flange is such that it's "pointed downhill" somewhat, meaning that for the release to slide off, the spring has to compress slightly.  Going to safety test this a few times, then give it a ride.

Edited April 6, 2023 by UWSkier

[Horton]

 The mechanism seems to slide off the back of the boot without much force though. One finger with moderate pressure slides it off. 

@UWSkier That sounds like the distance from the toe hoop to the release may be wrong. The release when engaged should be driving the boot forward against the toe hoop.

[YoKo]

@UWSkier There is something wrong and probably Horton is correct. I followed the instruction videos posted above when I got my boot last year and it releases as designed. 

[UWSkier]

I'll see if I can move the release up into the "size 12" hole and run the wishbone in the rear hole of the mounts to get enough forward "push" when engaged.

[Deanoski]

you Need to move the heel closer to the toe. 
 

should have two wholes where the heel bolts to the. Price that bolts to the plate.   Distance between And.  B.  Is to great when the ski flex and counter flexes.  You release 

 

reflex pos. Heel. Will kill you if not set up correctly 

when set up correctly can still have issues.

[UWSkier]

already in the front hole on the mount (arrow in this photo).  Going to experiment a bit more this weekend.

Edited April 6, 2023 by UWSkier

[Deanoski]

Ski the boot without the reflex 

then you will have no issue with prerelease 

 

[Horton]

@DeanoskiMy personal opinion is that is terrible and dangerous advice. I am aware that not everyone agrees with me on this point. 

 

Water skiing is a dangerous sport.

1. If you are inclined to sue BallOfSpray if you break your leg from a non-releasable boot please let me know so I can block you from the site
2. If you are inclined to sue BallOfSpray if you break your leg from a releasable boot please let me know so I can block you from the site
3. If you are inclined to sue BallOfSpray in you are injured in any way because of your boot set up please let me know so I can block you from the site

[UWSkier]

Moved the release forward slightly.  Will see if this works better.

Side note, when you're doing the step-out testing and it doesn't release, it hurts like hell when the top edge of the ski bashes your other ankle.  

[Deanoski]

Horton I know multiple skiers using the radar boot without the reflex release.  
They just use the bungee upper laces. And have zero issues 
Way less maintenance and never a prerelease 

 

BTW   IDS 

 

 

[skialex]

For anyone wanting to test if your distance between the toe bar and the release is right… put the ski on the bench with the boot on (any brand made for reflex system). Hold the toe bar with your hands and puss the tip of your boot, if it moves back, you have an issue and generally if there is play there, you have an issue.
I’ve seen it many times and it’s not only dangerous, but also you ski on something with a lot a play and not a good connection while worrying if a thousand of an inch will hinder the performance of your ski.

kids and lightweight women usually get away with the play on their boot systems, but still is better to have this fixed. If it’s very hard to clip the realease on the boot… this could also be bad, as it already is under more pressure than the usual and can result in a prerelease.

 

[UWSkier]

2 hours ago, Gloersen said:

@UWSkier  Are you pre-releasing from the toe or the heel?

Perhaps not getting proper perspective viewing the pic of your set up, but it appears the toe-bar is to the left of center (viewed from the top).

It appears that’s a Left foot binding, so the toe-bar should be mounted to the right of center (viewed from top) in the asymmetric holes provided on the Radar plate, otherwise having the boot mal-rotated, that could adversely impact the design of a secure fit when clamped in.

Disregard if the toe-bar is indeed mounted in the holes placing it to the right of center (from a top view).

Either way, don’t ski until you get that pre-release issue resolved.

Toe bar is in the center.  This is V1 of the Radar plate that doesn't have the offset toe bar mounting locations.  They released that about a week after I bought this one.  

[Horton]

@Deanoski Might as well go all the way....

[Horton]

@Deanoski Seriously if your choice is to go without a release that is your choice. As the owner of this forum I am super nervous about litigation. If someone bolts the boot to the ski and gets hurt I just want to make sure that no one can say I endorsed the idea. 

I am aware that a number of high end skiers bolt their bindings to their ski and say that it is fine. 

[B_S]

@HortonI'm confused by your comment regarding screwing the boot to the base. Aren't these boots designed for this, with release coming from the liner coming out of the shell? I would understand your concern if this were a standard hard shell, but Radar designed them to release this way?

Full disclosure, I bought a front/rear set last year, and have them mounted to baseplate/ski. Haven't had a fall yet that required release (only a handful of sets before winter), but I can pull out of them in the water after a set.

[Horton]

@b_s I would not define these boots as ones that your foot would come out of in a fall. Some may disagree. I see these boots as true hardshells. 

[B_S]

@Hortonit's probably my very narrow feet that allow me to pull out of them. Speaking of which, do you have any recommendations to add some volume? I feel like my heel is still a bit loose even when the boa is pretty tight (forefoot seems pretty locked in, and I've heat formed the liners).

[Horton]

The only way to add volume is heat mold liners. The perfect heat moldable liner is awesome, but sometimes it can be a rabbit hole getting it right.

[teammalibu]

When I set mine up with the reflex release I lowered the toe bar by .030 by making shorter

collar spacers.

I also added a couple nylon pieces to keep my heel centered on the plate.

I used the offset plate from Radar and set the release tension on dry land as in the video. It has worked perfectly.

 

[RAWSki]

19 hours ago, Horton said:

@b_s I would not define these boots as ones that your foot would come out of in a fall. Some may disagree. I see these boots as true hardshells. 

Hmmmm Maybe BOS needs to advise the group that designed the boot to stop selling plates that allow the boot to attach directly to their and every other manufaturer skis??

[Horton]

@RAWSki

They know my opinion. They would probably prefer that I agreed with their point of view but in the end we're all still friends.

[Horton]

@Gloersen I think you're approaching..

https://youtu.be/ORm0NwdbB2E

 

 

 

[Horton]

Hey another thing about release settings....

I was messing around with Reflex systems in my shop today. I noticed that I have one setup with a release number or about 6 and another with a release number of about 2. In reality they POP (release) with about the same amount of force. The setting numbers are different because the boots are different or something else is different. Maybe boot one is stiffer or ..... The goal is for safe release.

[Horton]

In other thoughts... does anyone know how stiff Joel's boot is? 

[dchristman]

"I’m sorry but I couldn’t find any information about Joel Howley’s front ski boot stiffness. However, generally speaking, how much volume of the ski boot a person’s foot takes up will affect leverage and ultimately how stiff or soft a ski boot feels. Generally speaking, the less volume of a ski boot your foot takes up, the softer the boot is going to feel¹. The boot fitter will usually observe the skier flexing a boot and may make a judgment to either recommend a stiffer or softer flex based on their observation in the shop²." Maybe ask @JoelHowley's bootfitter😉

[foxriverat]

I love the way my 2016 vapor boots release. Unfortunately they are going to need replacing soon. I guess I`m going to have to find an old pair since the new one`s don`t seem to release as well.

[Deanoski]

The radar boots release. The same as the old ones.
release  All depends on boa and bungee. Tension 
 

many skiers are not using the reflex release 

the boot was designed to be used both ways.    
 

 

 

[Deanoski]

[Slalom.Steve]

Everybody always says that mechanical release should be safe. And in theory, if you know exactly what you're doing and know how to check it and do so frequently, then it's safe. But if that's the case, why do you see/hear about so many instances of prelease? Because we don't live in a theoretical world, we live in a practical, highly imperfect one. Even the people who know what they're doing and know to check their release still screw up: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmZYvREjqxO/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= (see my comment and Stevie's response.) Two ski buddies of mine both had prelease falls within the same week last summer and both are long-time skiers who said they thought they knew what they were doing in setting their release.

We don't tell people not to wear seatbelts just because theoretically cars are safe ("just don't run into anything!"). -- I admit this is not a great analogy, it's too extreme, but just for a sense.

I think to amend my usual saying, rather than "I don't trust mechanical release," it perhaps should be "I don't trust mechanical release in the hands of bumbling humans." (that includes me, and likely roughly 94.7% of you lol).

Yes, a non-mechanical release can be a problem as well, in that it can not release in a bad fall, and that can certainly cause injury, but I'm more scared of, and have heard more bad experiences with, mechanical prelease falls as opposed to "analogue" non-releasing falls.

However... on both sides of this argument the best anyone can offer right now is haphazard anecdotal evidence, which hardly counts as evidence. Wasn't there a poll a while ago asking people about prelease and injury? Or was that just about hard falls in general? It could be informative to do a poll asking how many people have experienced preleases, how many people have experienced falls in analogue bindings where they erroneously didn't release, and for each segment, how many of those instances led to minor or significant injury. Then there'd actually be some data to prove me/you wrong/right. Although even then, lots of confounding variables are possible - course vs. free, how often ski a year, how many years skiing, etc.

[Horton]

@SlalomSteve when I first started using releasable systems and was trying to develop my own brand of releaseable system I had some pre-releases.  ( FYI - I flushed a lot of money down the toilet on that project)

I also did permanent damage to my front ankle on a system that should have released and did not. 100% my fault.

I learned my lessons the hard way. Back then there was no websites like this or YouTube videos to help you assemble your system.

In the 20-years since I don't think I've seen a single pre-release that was not set up error or some sort of maintenance issue.

I've been using a Reflex style system exclusively for about 7 years x at least 200 rides per year, so let's call it 1400 rides. Zero pre-releases.

I don't know Stevie, but my guess is if you sat down with him over a beer there's likely a little more to the story

[Slalom.Steve]

@Horton I agree that prelease issues are due to set up error or maintenance, but it seems a lot of skiers still succumb to those errors, despite thinking they weren't, so I'm not going to assume I won't be the same.

And I will say, as least when it comes to ski gear, I'd count you as one of the rare non-bumbling humans lol, and I particularly would expect that someone who's developed their own release system would know how to set and maintain releases properly. But I am not one of those people. If I skied with you regularly, and you helped me set up my release and taught me how to check it, and maybe put your liner in and tested it yourself... I may trust it. 🙂 

The videos are helpful, certainly better than nothing, but you are still ultimately looking for a "feel" of how easy/difficult it is to step out of, and a feel can't be fully conveyed with just words or even video. And if I have to go through a/some preleases to learn what it feels like to have a good setting, is it worth it? The answer may still be yes, but it's a question worth asking.

Another question could be: which could be a more dangerous type of fall: a prelease or a non-release? It seems the danger with a non-release is primarily leg injury, whereas a prerelease could be more of anything, and particularly head injury/concussion, which worries me more than bone/muscle injuries. My leg is just my leg, but my brain is me, and I can't put my brain in a cast.

[Deanoski]

I skied on a arc from 1984-1995

when back to rubber Ho 

in 2000. Starting use a reflex had a new system every 2-3 yrs  using the 400 or 404 release 

in 2020 had a prerelease at hook up at -32 was using a new 850 release  was on a 6  the stainless spring in the 850  I blame 

the older 400-404 and 750   and all snow ski binders use steel springs 

 

I now  ski in T factor  fb   My ski buddy  in using a new  radar bolted to the plate and his son is using the same 

 

I pray no one ever gets hurt like I did 

July 18 2020 

A prerelease can kill you!

I non released will hurt you at most 

Ps  I do know a few thinks about waterski and snow ski release bindings  started ARC and have been working for Head Tyrolia for 28 years 

Be safe check your shat ( like I did )  all the time  

when I not sure  double check  ( I tell my ski buddy with that release turn it up  

a static test does nothing you are putting way more stress on the release when skiing then standing on the dock 

the reflex heel release was designed in ww2  its crap technology 

we as water skiers need new updated technology but it will never happen no $ in it   Sad but true

 

go luck all and think short  my skiing friends 

 

 

Deano 

 

 

 

 

 

[mike_mapple]

I always see the pre release videos, and they are always on the newer style of the release, I never saw my dad come out, but he used an older release and never moved to the new one, never really said why, but he also kept his so tight I dont think he would have released on a bad fall.

[Killer]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:41 AM, Deanoski said:

I skied on a arc from 1984-1995

when back to rubber Ho 

in 2000. Starting use a reflex had a new system every 2-3 yrs  using the 400 or 404 release 

in 2020 had a prerelease at hook up at -32 was using a new 850 release  was on a 6  the stainless spring in the 850  I blame 

the older 400-404 and 750   and all snow ski binders use steel springs 

 

I now  ski in T factor  fb   My ski buddy  in using a new  radar bolted to the plate and his son is using the same 

 

I pray no one ever gets hurt like I did 

July 18 2020 

A prerelease can kill you!

I non released will hurt you at most 

Ps  I do know a few thinks about waterski and snow ski release bindings  started ARC and have been working for Head Tyrolia for 28 years 

Be safe check your shat ( like I did )  all the time  

when I not sure  double check  ( I tell my ski buddy with that release turn it up  

a static test does nothing you are putting way more stress on the release when skiing then standing on the dock 

the reflex heel release was designed in ww2  its crap technology 

we as water skiers need new updated technology but it will never happen no $ in it   Sad but true

 

go luck all and think short  my skiing friends 

 

 

Deano 

 

 

 

 

 

Dean I got into the new Radar boot at the end of last year.  15 years on double Radar RS1/Vapor boots without issue (although I've had a few very minor ankle tweaks I wouldn't even call sprains).   It's been probably 10 years since I've even come out of them or wanted to as I'm a stronger and better skier now (into 38off occasionally).

With that said, the new Radar boot has me thinking of going to the reflex release...  

Any thoughts on the new Atomic Backland Touring bindings?  they look like they "could" work on a waterski; light and simple.

https://cripplecreekbc.com/products/atomic-backland-tour-binding

 

[UWSkier]

22 minutes ago, Killer said:

Dean I got into the new Radar boot at the end of last year.  15 years on double Radar RS1/Vapor boots without issue (although I've had a few very minor ankle tweaks I wouldn't even call sprains).   It's been probably 10 years since I've even come out of them or wanted to as I'm a stronger and better skier now (into 38off occasionally).

With that said, the new Radar boot has me thinking of going to the reflex release...  

Any thoughts on the new Atomic Backland Touring bindings?  they look like they "could" work on a waterski; light and simple.

https://cripplecreekbc.com/products/atomic-backland-tour-binding

 

the reason we haven't been able to keep up with the snow-ski tech is because they don't have to stick a back foot right behind the front foot.

[Stathis Ventouris]

@Deanoski I totally agree a prerelease can be very dangerous if not kill you... After 10 years using a Reflex system I had a prerelease last December and hit the water hard. I was very lucky and got a way with a bone internal bruise on my right shoulder that took me about two months to get back on the water. As @mike_mapplesaid I was on an 840 (stainless steel) release,  with previous models I never had an issue before. @Horton not a maintenance issue, it looks like that the stainless steel ones have a softer material that can bent overtime ( I had only 130 sets on it) thus resulting in unexpected releases.  As a result since February I decided to switch to the new vapor boot without a releasable system.  

[Killer]

1 hour ago, UWSkier said:

the reason we haven't been able to keep up with the snow-ski tech is because they don't have to stick a back foot right behind the front foot.

$ / market size is the #1 reason, but yes that is a big difference.   Alpine Snowboarding is more similar.

Still these new touring bindings are a step in the right direction, while we predominantly use as Deano says an antique alpine binding for waterskiing today.  

Lots of innovators in waterskiing, wouldn't take a whole lot to try a set and modify some of these touring bindings.  The boots would have to change, but not by much.  Radar already makes a boot designed for the reflex system and the other boots are just rollerblade boots.

[skialex]

It’s common sense that if you ski on different bindings front and rear, releasing might not be the same for both feet. I’m not suggesting any specific setup, skiing double vapors bolted down could be a good thing, but when skiing in a front vapor with a rear toe loop or r style shell that are both very easy to release from…. You definitely don’t want your front foot to stay in when it does not supposed to. Having one in one out for me is way more dangerous. 
I totally prefer to check my equipment regularly and use a more complicated release mechanism than risking a one in one out even in simple falls. Problem is that when realizing that you were wrong about your setup, it is already to late and that includes many of us skiers and myself too.

[UWSkier]

8 minutes ago, skialex said:

It’s common sense that if you ski on different bindings front and rear, releasing might not be the same for both feet. I’m not suggesting any specific setup, skiing double vapors bolted down could be a good thing, but when skiing in a front vapor with a rear toe loop or r style shell that are both very easy to release from…. You definitely don’t want your front foot to stay in when it does not supposed to. Having one in one out for me is way more dangerous. 
I totally prefer to check my equipment regularly and use a more complicated release mechanism than risking a one in one out even in simple falls. Problem is that when realizing that you were wrong about your setup, it is already to late and that includes many of us skiers and myself too.

This is my rationale also.  I have been on double boots since 2001 and double Vapors since 2016, but a health issue necessitated a change to one foot starts, meaning kicking into an RTP like I did as a grom back in the 90s.  I never ever ejected from my double Vapors.  I had some nasty falls and hurt ankles a couple times, but nothing I couldn't walk away from.  That was with both feet in.  I fear the destroyed ACL or spiral fracture enough to take the chance on the release.

[Deanoski]

@UWSkier  in waterskiing you can let go of the handle before you are trouble.   At least I do.  I don’t hang on the shat I can’t handle or of I get in wacky position   I just let go. Starting doing this 15 hrs ago 
 

a prerelease you don’t know when it will happen  

[GMC]

I tried setting up a boot with a Reflex 840 release and a Vapor plate yesterday.  I couldn't get it to have what I would consider an appropriate amount of preload based on my experience with Reflex boots.  How much does this boot/system require? 

I tried two sets of holes on the plate and on the release mounting bracket - four possible combinations.  I could achieve too much (the boot felt jammed in/hard to snap in/would it release?) or too little (the boot was held into place but I could easily pull the release off the back of the boot - historically no bueno on a Reflex boot).  I haven't done a release test or skied it yet because neither of those felt right.  Given the shallow engagement of the boot into the toe loop I thought more is better and would compensate by reducing the spring tension until the release was right.  

[UWSkier]

3 hours ago, Deanoski said:

@UWSkier  in waterskiing you can let go of the handle before you are trouble.   At least I do.  I don’t hang on the shat I can’t handle or of I get in wacky position   I just let go. Starting doing this 15 hrs ago 
 

a prerelease you don’t know when it will happen  

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Pitted in a turn with a massive hit, yeah, easy to toss the handle, and something you don't need a release for.  Shoulders forward into the wakes or a lean lock, sometimes you're better off holding on and riding it out than dumping the handle at max load.

[jjackkrash]

I just got a new vapor boot for my boy on a single carbon plate with RTP.  I am getting the same setup likely next week (and moving from older double vapors on a carbon plate).  So is the consensus even with it lightly laced you (i.e., the insert) are not coming out like the older carbitex model?  I really do not want to use a mechanical release for a lot of reasons, but now I have my concerns.  Ugg.