how do you score this??

[Horton]

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CZan2SUuMZ5/?utm_medium=copy_link

[MDB1056]

Very carefully……..

[lpskier]

While at first it appears that the ski is going inside the buoy, it clearly goes around it. If the buoy is displaced, it is displaced by the front binder, not the ski. Therefore it’s a minimum .25. Jon has the handle, the ski is supporting his weight and he is otherwise in skiing position well after the buoy. At short line, the ski crosses the half buoy line immediately after the buoy so long as the skier has the handle. I score a half, unless he recovers his position and makes it back to the line of boat guides with a tight line by the next set of boat guides. The video does not show what happens, so I score a half based on what we see.

 

Interesting distinction. If an L/R, you can run over the next boat guide, but in a C/E, you can’t. Compare IWWF Rule 8.09© (“at or before”) and AWSA Rule 10.03(A) (“before”).

[MarkTimm]

3, got his ski around the ball and back in skiing position before the next set of boat guides.

[6balls]

Got around the ball...half --(assuming he didn't stand up that bit of ridiculousness and get back to the wake before the next set of guides)

[ALPJr]

‘A’ for effort

[Stevie Boy]

One Big Fat Zero "0" but I am not a certified Judge.

[Than_Bogan]

I would guess that another angle would show the ball significantly displaced and therefore no additional buoys.

But if this video is the only evidence available, then I have to give another 1/2, simply because I can't be confident that it's not.

[thager]

I don't....

[UCFskier]

in this case if you give a 1/2 bouy you have to give him a full. He returns (in a skiing position) to the middle of the wake prior to the boat guides... 3

[MISkier]

I would not have wanted to make this call real time. I think the buoy is displaced, so I'd say no credit for any portion of the buoy.

[Mastercrafter]

I don't remember, but am curious how this was actually scored in the tournament.

[lpskier]

@Than_Bogan @Gloersen Did he displace the buoy with “the ski?”

 

[MDB1056]

This was I believe in the runoff at Worlds. As I recall it was scored at 1/2 which got him into the finals. Best part of that show was watching the four in the runoff come off the dock cold at 39, and then Dane running 41.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@lpskier IMO he “significantly displaced” the buoy with the ski. No credit for that buoy. I may have called it differently in real time. Definitely a tough call.

[MISkier]

@MDB1056

 

I think you mean "Dane running 41". But, you are right. "Zane" (presumably Schwenk) running 41 would have been something to see as well.

[MDB1056]

@MISkier - ooops. Yep definitely fat fingered that one. Wow….Great case for reading carefully before posting ?. Will get that corrected - thanks

[RichardDoane]

excessive slow motion should not be used to score balls. bunch of Monday morning quarter-backs will chime in. real time would've scored a half, but as I remember @MarkTimm is right about the body slide and regaining position

[Drago]

Zero. If no slow motion: zero.

It would be better if we didn't have vague words in our rule book like "significantly displaced"

[ForrestGump]

Wow that is a tough one. In real time I'd have scored it a zero I think. Because I for sure thought the ski went in front of the buoy at first. It's only after watching it in slow that I see the red smear by the front binding. But the buoy isn't moving inside, it's going down. So I'd have still called it a zero.

[Horton]

This is an extremely interesting in my mind. I think tip of the ski never gets outside the ball line but JTs feet seem to have been outside the ball line.

 

USAWS rule 10.03

A. Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy or to ride over, straddle, or jump over a turn buoy. But there is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing.

 

IWSF Rule 8.08a

Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy, or to ride over, straddle, or jump a turn buoy. There is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing

 

[Horton]

I think by the letter of the rules the score is zero ( for that ball). On the other hand I am not sure this is the sprit of the rule. I do not see it in the rules but I always thought the skiers front ankle or foot outside the ball was the deciding factor.

[Drago]

@Horton ? yet another language problem. We shouldn't have to guess "the spirit of the rule". I always thought the ski and the foot/feet should go outside the buoy, as they do in alpine ski racing.

[Than_Bogan]

I interpret the rule in the same skier-friendly way that @Horton describes as the "spirit," but it seems obvious that some improvement of the rule is possible, given that other reasonable people interpret it differently.

 

That said, sometimes trying to get a rule to be extremely precise can backfire. We all used to know when a football player caught the ball except in some rare situations. In an effort to clarify the correct call in those rare, ultra-difficult cases, they ended up in a place where only a hard-core rules expert has any idea what is a catch and what isn't -- even for ordinary situations!

 

There may be cases where saying "use your judgment and err toward the skier if you're confused" is actually as far as we should go.

[6balls]

@drago most of the ski did! Just razzin you,man--understand what you are saying. I'm no record judge, I give it to him--half and if he stood that up and got to the wake before the next set like some seem to say he did (if the video went longer), give him the full buoy. Incredible skiing by a world-class skier.

[Horton]

I think it's worth contemplating that for a skier not at 39 or 41 or 43 off it is unlikely for the path of the tip of the ski to be inside the ball line and for the skier's front foot to be outside of the ball line. I think this is a possibility that only occurs at the very highest levels of the sport.

[lpskier]

@Horton AWSA Rule 10.12(D) provides that it is the front foot that determines whether a 1/4 or 1/2 buoy is awarded. There is (to my knowledge) no comparable IWWF rule.

 

Displacement of the buoy with your bindings, the handle, or any body part is permitted. It is significant displacement with the ski that is prohibited.

 

To me, the call is either 1/2 or zero, depending on whether the ball was a) significantly displaced b) by the ski. It is hard the answer either question definitively. AWSA Rule 1.15 states that when a call is too close, the benefit of the doubt goes to the skier. Again, there is no comparable IWWF rule, and the video is undoubtedly from an L/R tournament with the IWWF rules in force. Regardless, I think the call at best (or worst, however you want to look at it) is too close to call and the skier gets a half. I called a half based on the binding displacing the buoy, which is allowed. I think either call gets you to what i see as the right result.

 

What was the live call? And what was the call after video review?

[lpskier]

@Horton I agree with your last comment. That’s why judging is more than counting to six, and you really need to spend a lot of time watching high level slalom live from a tower and boat to be competent to judge Open/Masters level skiers.

[ALPJr]

To my eyes it’s clear that the tip end of the ski, ~6 inches or so back from the tip, goes directly over the buoy, pushing it under the ski and water before the buoy reappears near the front boot. Zero at an elite competition.

[MarkTimm]

@ALPJr My take is, the ski tip inside the buoy would displace it outward. To have the buoy re-appear while completing the turn, inside of the ski, in this case at his front binding he had to be still traveling outward for this to happen. In the split second that it takes to round a buoy @ 41 I don't believe that a displaced buoy would have time to pop back up inside of the ski unless the ski / skier is still traveling outbound of the buoy line.

This would be a great video to add to the senior judge test. Do I think some one could see this from either tower, no. The boat judge maybe.

[ForrestGump]

This is why I was never that good of a judge. I'm half blind, half drunk, and only on a good day can get to 6. Usually, I run out of fingers getting to 4. But I tell good stories and could ray charles my way through a semi straight boat path so people always tolerated me.

[Kelvin]

This was prelims of Worlds. The official score in the books after video review is 2 buoys (which I agree with for the reasons stated above). No credit for anything at 3. I don't remember the original call from the judges, but it was going to be reviewed in any case since it was such a close call. Had he gotten credit for anything at 3-ball, the score would have been a full 3 buoys.

[A_B]

I think they should change the "sinking" part of it to clearly state if the skier or binding causes the "sinking" then it will count. To me, what makes sense is if the ski is outside of the buoy, scoring follows the quarter, half, full, rule. We have all hit buoys with shins, ankles, bindings, etc. and dunked them. If the ski is outside of center on the ball, it should count. If the ski is on the inside of center, then no good.

[lundberg]

I don't remember where I saw this picture collage but is very cool (I apologize that I can't give the photographer credit). I'm pretty sure it is from the clip in question.

 

 

It is worth zooming in and appreciating the amazing athletic effort. That said, I remember the first time I looked close I thought the ski was not going to be outside the ball.

 

 

[lpskier]

I just noticed the second video. I change my half to a full buoy, official call of zero on that buoy notwithstanding.

 

@A_B I think the rule is even less clear with the advent of Goode buoys and Wally buoys. Both deflect more easily than an Overton’s style buoy by design. The buoy in the video appears to be a Wally. How would have a “normal” buoy reacted in the same circumstance?

[rico]

I agree with @MarkTimm At this speed, the buoy would not have time to sink and pop back up. I think slow mow / frame by frame can be deceiving as some colors (like a red buoy) may blur in/out from frame to frame. This would be a good video question for Vince Stadlbaur.

 

My take is at 41 the skier is much higher on the boat and traveling a lot faster from side to side. The ski is traveling as much down course as it is side ways and the view could be deceiving.

 

I would have given 3.

[Drago]

@rico I change my mind. I give him 5 ;)

[BG1]

3