Baller APB Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 Such great skiing yesterday! To put that down cold was unreal…. Can’t wait to see it happen again. I don’t believe that score counts towards the rankings list. Or does it? Is he the 3rd person to put down a 43 score with sure path? Impressive. Hopefully Saturday is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted October 15, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 15, 2021 In a run off no it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 Run off scores only apply to break a tie. No “official” score is recorded. That said, it doesn’t make it any less real! Ir was hugely impressive and completely legit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Lars Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 Here is his 41 followed by his 43, starts at 10:16:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dthate Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 @lars thanks for posting video, that was fantastic skiing, congrats to Dane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DangerBoy Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 To my untrained eye at least he looked like he was in complete control all the way through that 41' off. He did it so well and without scrambling anywhere it surprises me that it was the first time he'd done it. To me at least, he looked like a guy who does it all the time on that run. Way to go!! B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 As stated, the only unfortunate thing is that after running such a great score, it ain't in the books! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 He got a perfect gate, nice tight line out of 1 ball. From that point he had it run. Incredible skiing, especially in the situation. 1st 41 off run (obviously PB) in a runoff to get into the finals at worlds. A great moment overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Mastercrafter Posted October 15, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 15, 2021 He made that 41 look easy, in a good position the whole time. Incredible skiing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ski6jones Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 That start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller UCFskier Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 Go Dane!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 Dane is just a really cool dude to hang out with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 15, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2021 1,3,5 were just sick at 41. Amazing. Really nice guy, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 16, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 16, 2021 I think that if you gave Dane the choice of running 41 in an L tournament so that the score “counts,” or running it in a runoff to make the finals at Worlds, he’d take finals at Worlds. So don’t feel too bad for him. And recall that he won the preliminary round at the last Worlds. Dane will, in my opinion, run 41 again. And again. And again. Etc. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller aupatking Posted October 16, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2021 The reason T-Gas’ full -41 pass doesn’t put him on the list of guys that has run -41 is that it was a runoff. They don’t do boat path review, among other things. Since Sure-Path is now the standard, and is automatic, should this view be changed? It’s obviously a record tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Bill22 Posted October 16, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2021 @aupatking I am with you, Dane smoked 41 at Worlds, w/ legit driving, on a legit course, on film with the whole ski community watching. He’s in the 41off club even though his score is not recorded in the score book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 16, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2021 I'm with you guys. That should now be counted. In essence, that was another round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted October 16, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2021 @aupatking semantics maybe and not to split hairs but the runoff passes are judged just the same as if they are in the tournament - including video reviews, boat path monitoring, timing, etc. I don’t know all the details of the T-Gas scenario but for Dane the pass was a legit as if it was in the tournament. HOWEVER, while it did resolve the tie, runoff’s are not eligible to be records. In other words if he ran 4@43 it wouldn’t have been reviewed for a record. Whether it counts on a “list of all skiers who ran 41 list”, is not up to IWWF or AWSA. It’s clearly a tournament quality performance (e.g.- not a practice score). The score IS in the scorebook just noted as a runoff score not one from a regular round. What I’m saying is he clearly is on my list of who’s run 41! Awesome skiing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 16, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2021 What I meant is those runoff scores should be scored in regards to world rankings. They are judged the same. Driven the same. The same technical rules apply. That's a legit score. In fact, that's under as much or more pressure than a final round score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Bruce_Butterfield Posted October 16, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 16, 2021 I disagree that runoff scores should “count towards rankings”. It is the same as if you fall on your hardest pass then get another chance a few minutes later. Kinda like practice or a mulligan in a novice tournament. First time consecutive performance off the dock is what does and should “count”. Still awesome skiing by Dane! If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 16, 2021 Administrators Share Posted October 16, 2021 @ForrestGump I have to agree with Butterfield. Run off scores are not the same as normal tournament scores. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Become a Supporting Member or make a One-time Donation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 17, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 17, 2021 Not the same, potentially harder. Do points scored in overtime count in most sports? To look at football does a receivers catch yardage only get recorded during regulation? A QB's stats? What if it goes two overtime periods with much more scoring. How about basketball, baseball...any other sport. Isn't the run-off similar to "overtime"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted October 17, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 17, 2021 Another counterpoint would be this: they had to start at 39’off - not the usual start of 32’off. If it should count towards an official score can (and maybe should?) be debated for the future. As a “spectator” and fan of the sport it was just incredible to watch these four guys give it their all and see who came out on top. Better competition and awesome skiing. That is what this past year has really been all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted October 17, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 17, 2021 So what if the runoff skier for 2nd/3rd has a score higher than the winner? Should that skier also get MORE pro points than the winner for that tournament even tho the finished in a lower place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller aupatking Posted October 17, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 17, 2021 Runoffs are for placement, not score. I get that. I don’t 100% agree with @Bruce_Butterfield but I do agree mostly. It’s not a mulligan, but if is basically a round no one else gets. The “score” doesn’t count, but the pass couldn’t be much more official. Anyway, that was the highest level skiing for a Worlds, that I have seen. I’m amazed, and couldn’t be happier for Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller slow Posted October 17, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 17, 2021 Did he score 120 - No Did he run 41 off - yes He should be in the 41 off club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller RGilmore Posted October 17, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 17, 2021 IMO, the single biggest hurdle to running the next line length is knowing for an absolute fact that you CAN - especially under tournament pressure. We haven't seen Mechler's last -41'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 17, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 17, 2021 An interesting question (and I don’t know the answer) is whether the tournament is sanctioned as a two round event. That’s what it is, a two round event. If that’s the case, the runoff is not a sanctioned round, and therefore the score can’t count even if you wanted it to. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 Maybe there should be an asterisk in the rule book that states: *when starting at 10.75 meters in runoff and first pass is completed, any score thereafter COUNTS because it is freaking awesome skiing! No, I agree, consecutive score off dock is the best way to go. :smiley: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 @lpskier points out the important technical issue. A run off is only meant to break a tie. It’s not meant to do anything else. In fact, let’s assume Dane went last, he would have never even got a shot at 43 since something deep into 41 would have been enough to break the tie. He could have run 41 but the return pass would have been straight back to the dock. So for this discussion (“which skiers have run 41?”) you can obviously add his name to the list. But what is his “final” score? Just 6@41? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted October 19, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2021 @aupatking - "The reason T-Gas’ full -41 pass doesn’t put him on the list of guys that has run -41 is that it was a runoff. They don’t do boat path review, among other things." Boat path was not measured on a number of the skiers on the 41 off list as no record was set... We have no way of knowing if previous skiers on the list had legit boat paths or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jjackkrash Posted October 19, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2021 Q: "Hey, have you ever run -41 in a tourney?" A: Yup. I think that would be an honest and correct answer in this circumstance. "Nope" would be a false answer. Even if they did not score 120 buoys in a tournament. T-Gas and and Mechler should both be on the list of skiers who have "run -41 in a tourney." They are both on my list, anyway. Edit: I did not see Slow's post above before I posted but I obviously agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 19, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 19, 2021 It’s sad his 41 does not go in the books. I get the reasons. But, as mentioned here, in no way shape or form can you take away the legitimacy of that 41. All known variables were accounted for that may put it into question. It was lagit IMHO. And gives is sub 6’ folks hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skierjp Posted October 19, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2021 I’m pretty sure there would have been a boat path review at Worlds and the Malibu Open since we are operating under Sure Path. Everything has to be legit it just doesn’t qualify for a record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 19, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 19, 2021 So in a run off, seems like rules that make passes equal across all skiers in the run off is watered down past that of a non run off pass?? And that’s ok? That seems wrong. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 19, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 19, 2021 @Wish Video of all passes -38 and shorter are required for all IWSF tournaments, run offs or otherwise and must be submitted for post tournament review. Sure Path is required for all titled events. See Rule 8.15. Also, Rule 14.08 provides that the tournament is two rounds: a preliminary and a final. A run off would be an impermissible third round were it to be scored and go “in the books.” Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted October 19, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2021 @Wish as @lpskier said everything is viewed and reviewed just like it would be in a tournament. It IS “in the books”. What it is not is it is not a regular round of a tournament. In this case only the prelim and final rounds are included as “eligible” rounds for the world ranking list. The score is legit. The path was fine. Run off scores are ONLY used to break a tie. They are not eligible for anything else including a world record. Speaking of records, @skierjp Dane’s score is NOT a record. It is a PB most certainly but not a record. So I’m not sure what you mean by your last sentence above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Andre Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 So many rules for such a simple sport... My ski finish in 16.95 but my ass is out of tolerance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skierjp Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 @klindy That’s what I said. It is not a record! But all our resources that would justify a record is still used and verified in a run off it just doesn’t count as a record. I believe Roger said that boat path would not be reviewed in a runoff which is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MDB1056 Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 I doubt there’s anyone in this forum that doesn’t credit Dane with running a legit 41, in the most controlled event of the year. It was simply the next time that he (Dane) was required to ski in that tournament. It wasn’t a mulligan or second chance, as again it was simply the next time he was required to ski. So as already noted- did it happen - YES. “Counting” or not in standings is a rule technicality, as again it does not in any way make it any less real . Yes it happened and he’s in the club. Discussion about rules changes???? Good luck……. Congrats to Dane. We’re looking for more to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Bruce_Butterfield Posted October 20, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 20, 2021 Ok let’s back up a little. First, absolutely stout skiing by Dane. However a runoff is akin to skiing a tournament (or practice), falling on any given pass, then a few minutes later you get another chance and ski beyond any previous PB. Is that that the same as running it off the dock? Does the rest of the field get a second chance too? If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller APB Posted October 20, 2021 Author Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 He’s def in the club. Him and Detrick have the most legit 43 scores of all time. Zero off combined with surepath is rock solid. Champions and respectable athletes our sport can be proud of. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Intheday Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 To play devils advocate isn't the runoff just an extension of the 1st round and therefore counts as a world record? You could argue runoffs are more akin to an equipment failure where you get time (3 minutes) to fix the problem then can ski the round not everyone get this advantage/disadvantage but your scores still counts, or re-ride for hitting a duck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller andjules Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 So we know the rules, and that run-offs don't count towards official scores. We also know there's an informal thing called the 41 off club. I find myself amused at the idea of a bunch of dudes on the internet (myself included) debating the entry requirements for the 41 off club. There are 12 guys who can decide if TGas and Mechler are in the 41 off club. We aren't them. Can you imagine yourself being at a lake with Mechler and TGas and throwing shade on their 41s, to their face? I know I wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Nater Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 He ran 41off at the Worlds! This shouldn’t be a debate. He did it! Call it what you want…..”He’s in the club” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 Nobody said he didn't run 41, and just an FYI, the world record is 2 1/2 @ 43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 @Drago - great point. And what would have happened if Dane went to 3@43? Would that “count”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skierjp Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 @Skoot1123 NO, I’m assuming you’re being sarcastic and you actually know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 @skierjp - yes. But posing the hypothetical. Maybe a step back to ask some questions. Would the skiers even attempt it? Would the skier “hold back” in this scenario? What do the skier’s think of this rule? Do the skiers think it should count? Why was this rule (“runoff scores don’t “count”) written in the first place? (Is it because they don’t have to go up the standard rope lengths?) Is there any incentive to change it so these scores do count? I don’t know the answers - but am curious to know how the competitor skiers feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 20, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 20, 2021 I think there is a huge difference between the entry qualifications for the 41 Club and whether you can find the score in the score book. Dude ran 41 in the World Championships. He’s in the club and probably already knows the secret handshake. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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