Rule Proposal "Opt Down"

[AdamCord]

@Horton when I skied with Mapple he used to start at 28 most of the time. If he wasn't too good for 28 then you also aren't.

 

That being said he usually skipped 35 and 38, but he did start at 28 :D

[BS74]

Regarding the Nautiques, one of my ski partners has a 2019 and if no passengers he has to put 200lbs of wgt. on left side to balance the boat. Is this normal for some of you with the newer Nautiques? I have a 2017 200 and I put 40lbs on one side to balance and it has a sweet wake. Agree with @Horton, it's a very hard wake.

 

[MISkier]

I guess I could relay the advice I received here from several members when I mentioned the 22 off wake on the 197 was not my favorite:

 

"Have good body position and you'll be able to absorb the wake"

 

"Put your ski on edge and you'll slice right through"

 

"I've taught many college kids to ski that boat and they never had a problem"

 

and my personal favorite

 

"Hips up"

[Dirt]

Hey guys and gals can someone start a Nautique wake sucks at 28 and 32 thread? Horton doesnt appreciate the thread jack.

 

Lets get back to this serious matter of a rule change so we can do whatever we want like in practice.

[Horton]

This is officially the most unpopular thread I've ever started. :-)

[MISkier]

@Dirt, I believe @Horton was the first to mention the Nautique wake issue as being related to this rule proposal. So, some of us may have thought it was linked officially.

[Horton]

@MISkier ;-)

[RazorRoss3]

@Horton, I would argue it’s the most popular. The readership can tell you that you’re wrong and call you a baby in the same thread, that’s a home run

[BraceMaker]

@RazorRoss3 Cunningham's Law states "the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." The concept is named after Ward Cunningham, father of the wiki.

[MrJones]

I have multiple reasons to be against this...

 

1. We have (had) rules for a sport. If you want to participate please join us. Follow the rules. Have fun. (I realize that at this point this line of thought is water under the bridge)

 

2. How many warm up runs to trickers get before launching into a 10k point run or do jumpers get before smacking a 5-6' ramp. I'm not saying you should start at your hardest pass, but there is a reason that slalom skiers have the rep of being whiners.

 

3. Possibly slalom skiers should do a physical warm up like athletes before going out to ski? As a PT I'm amazed to watch a majority of skiers wander from lawn chair or judges tower straight to skiing with no warm up or stretching. This is a sport yes??

 

4. My wife looked over my shoulder and asked what I was typing. I explained the proposal to her and the comment was "Why, that's dumb". She is normally smarter than me.

[Horton]

@MrJones Likely not the first time Lynda said I was dumb.

[ForrestGump]

Horton, Lynda probably calls your wife and they discuss your dumbness regularly.

[Horton]

@ForrestGump I'm super grateful they have never met

[klindy]

This is a good example of thinking a rules change is the best way to handle a “problem” that doesn’t exist. What problem are you really trying to solve? Personal preference?

 

How about practicing 32, 32, 35, 38 2-3 times a week. On Friday before a tournament just run a tournament set straight up the line. Maybe ski your hardest pass twice or even three times. Perhaps throw in starts at 28 or 32 or even 35 some days (never know when you’ll be in a run off. Try opting up once in a while. Get used to running a “tough pass” cold.

 

Putting the effort in to be unstoppable regardless of the conditions or circumstances seems like a better idea than trying to tweak the rules to fabricate some kind of perceived advantage.

 

@horton aren’t you also one of those who complain the rule book is too long already?

[IGski]

So in reality @Horton wants to run a 32 that identifies as a 28......... it seems like that should be acceptable in todays' world we live.

[bigtex2011]

@Horton this whole thread made me smile. So in my mind it's a winner.

@jayski beavis and butthead were the best.

Maybe all us Texas and Louisiana folks make it to @hortons tourney with a stop off in vegas

[Jody_Seal]

When tournaments are scheduled a time factor of 6 min a skier is pretty much the standard time frame utilized.

Basically each slalom skier should be alloted that 6 min per round

 

Suggested rule: 4 pass max.

The boat shall go down and back through the course twice for each skier. (That's down and back twice that equals 4 passes..).

Skier has the option to start their round at any end and at any speed at any line length and on any of the 4 passes alloted to the skier. The first scoring pass will consist first difinitive attempt at entry gate and subsequential start of scoring as per gate rules.

All fall rules are in effect. Another words don't fall down when you are warming up. All other rope shorting and speed rules apply for scoring

 

Rational: my self and like many other skiers attend and enter and pay for that 6 min! Miss first pass pay dearly. Most skiers Don't have but three passes anyway.

A way to get more for what we pay for, the

Skiers as a whole will benefit from a 4 pass event. Gives those that can utilize a familiarization.

Open/ pro divisions could also put some excitement in their events with a 4 pass max rule.

 

.

 

[ScottScott]

The only thing worse than practicing 28off is practicing when the wind is over 5mph.

[jayski]

@bigtex2011 I am 10000000% in!!!

[DaveD]

I think @horton is suggesting something that might get me to participate in a few tournaments each year. I can't stand 15off or skiing at 32mph, and don't consistently run 28off. That means a 22 opener and miss my 28off. Down and back. Last tournament I skied, I told the guy skiing after me to get his ski on, I'd be right back.

 

I think John's suggestion needs some refinement to make everyone happy. How about allowing skiers to run their opener twice as long as they don't fall, but then they are limited to 4 passes, even if they complete their last pass? Maybe not for and L or R, but at least allow this at a C.

 

I do agree that "opting down" is a silly suggestion.

[jayski]

I could live with 4 passes guaranteed IF you fall or miss before 4 passes are up...I mean, @The Wood we always allow the skier to ski back to the dock if they miss going away anyway, so could be 2,4,6,8 passes total...some other sites in the SC region do this also...

[Bruce_Butterfield]

In several of my best tournament performances I completed 5 full passes and started on pass #6. Yeah, I'm old school, but skiing more passes rather than fewer will get higher scores.

[JackQ]

I am with Bruce, My better performances are on my 5th pass. Most skiers start way too short/fast.

 

Your 1st 2 passes should automatic, warming up, gaging your pullouts, head/tail, building a rhythm. You never miss unless you hit a duck or have 20kt tailwind at Nats.

 

Your third pass should be your “should run pass” about 95% probability for me, the 4th pass the one you hope to run but frequently don’t, 5th is the pass you dream about, and likely only get a few buoys on your best day.

 

 

[Horton]

@JackQ a wise man once told me that my gate at 28 has nothing to do with my gate at 38 so why do I practice my gate at 28 every ride?

[jayski]

@Horton off topic but I think that "wise man" isn't so wise, why would your mechanics at any gate change? I mean that's like saying why practice at 28 or 32 at all when you wanna run 38 or 39, I mean if your gates or skiing at all sucks at 28/32 you sure as heck ain't gonna have a good foundation for 38

[Mrs_MS]

@Horton

MS does 2 32’s to warm up in practice ?

Every time

[Horton]

@jayski

The forces at 28 are nothing like the forces at 38. That 10 feet of rope makes a huge difference. I try to spend as much time as I can on the shortest rope that I can run smoothly.

 

FYI that wise man recently sold his house in Bossier City and moved to Arkansas.

[ral]

I strongly believe that the forces at 28 and 38 @34 MPH are much more similar than the ones at 32 and 41 at 36 MPH. But maybe just my impression.

[JackQ]

@Horton, We differ on philosophies. I adhere to what Andy Mapple told me to do, make all your passes the same as much as possible. Use the same cues for pull outs, etc, etc. Even so at least 28 gives you a warm up, get a feel for the lineups, winds etc. Different strokes for different folks. If 28 bothers you just start at 32, you need to have at least two starting passes to be able to react to the conditions, anyway.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton if a so called wise man leaves a pristine ski lake to run into trees and tumble down hills while attempting to stay upright on 2 wheels, he may not be as wise as you think.

 

Yes the forces are different between 28 and 38, but the body alignment should be the same. Timing is different for every line length and if you can't make minor adjustments for line lengths, how the heck to you expect to adjust for setups and wind?

 

If you are worried about a 28 gate, I agree with Jack (and Andy who is a much wiser man) - ski your 28 gate like its 38.

[klindy]

If the forces are different between 28&38 I’m confused why you’d practice anything but 38 all the time. Just put the rope on the purple loop and do it until it becomes automatic. Why even mess with anything else that might mess up your timing? <\end sarcasm font>

[ski6jones]

Can you imagine what January will be like around here?

[unksskis]

Go 32mph 32' off, then speed up.

[Wish]

Whats the 32 off at 32mph worth score wise?

[dvskier]

Same as 28 off at 34.2.

[jayski]

@Horton watching that "wise man" form the boat many times, mechanically and technically he was the same at 28 and 38, intensity was different

[ral]

Scoring for 32 off at 32 MPH if top speed is 34.2 MPH is not @ 28 off but @ 15 off, at least as per IWWF rules. @klindy should know if it is different in AWSA’s rules.

[ScottScott]

Pretty sure in IWWF you have to go to max speed before shortening which is why the point difference. IWWF, If you have max speed of 34mph, and shorten at 32mph the point value of any shortening would be same as 15 off at 32mph? Or is it just moot because it can't be done?

 

AWSA is a 6 point increase of each step faster or shorter. So 32off at 32mph scores same as 28off 34mph.

 

AWSA zero based scoring

 

[ral]

@ScottScott , you can shorten up before max speed as per IWWF rules (8.01), but you are scored at 18.25m until max speed, regardless of the line length. Skiers lower speed to avoid starting at longer lines, but are scored as if they were.

[ALPJr]

…

[BraceMaker]

@ral IWWF has experimented with something like ZBS for Women's 45+

 

Not sure how it went. But basically allows a lower score to start.

 

 

 

[MDB1056]

@Horton, where in Arkansas? He is wise indeed.........

[Horton]

In a cave

[ral]

@BraceMaker , it is not in the 2021 Rulebook, and I failed to find your posting in the 2020 versions I have. Which version are you looking at?

[BraceMaker]

Interesting Ill check back at my computer later. In red for 2021 so something changed.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@ral 2020 V3 has it.

 

Again not sure if it was unsuccessful or with the pandemic if they just sort of never had a chance to really try it so they ditched it anyway?

 

 

[unksskis]

Class E is scored on ZBS, you can shorten prior to max speed.

[Horton]

I have a couple more rule suggestions. I promise the next two will not be as controversial.