Towboat Committee Report January 2021

[Horton]

Click the below link for the Towboat Committee Report January 2021

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YYMUFGtRpgRMA4CQXCfAKjKMc_hvjGMR/view?usp=sharing

 

 

[Golfguy]

Good Job Will. Well thought out and a giant step forward. Thank you.

[jayski]

Well I can agree to the proposed changes, the $25 is a good start but should be put under consideration to be increased

[Zman]

Is the suggested $25/hour of run time on top of gas and other covered expenses, per the LOC?

[dave2ball]

@Zman my guess would be yes. The LOC is responsible for the gas reimbursement to the boat owners unless other arrangements were made between the LOC and the boat owner.

[klindy]

The LOC can, and should make whatever arrangements they need to make to secure tow boats and fairly reimburse boat owners. Many already provide free or reduced entries, hotel rooms, other financial support. I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t make sure the boat has the same gas in it when it leaves as it did when it arrived (or equal cash). The $25/hour is meant to help level out the cost of ownership. Certainly a deal for more or less can be made anytime by anyone. This is just meant to provide some guidelines where there were none before.

[unksskis]

While we're at this, can we alter part C;

 

"c. In cases where dual boats are required, both boats must be of the same model and year"

 

I may misinterpret "required" here, but this is a foreseeable hinderance, or needs expansion.

 

Proposal would be;

c. In cases where dual boats are utilized, both boats must be of the same model (and engine size - if this is felt necessary)

 

My reasoning is this;

-we will be pulling our tournaments with member boats, no doubt about it

-we have a variety of 200's that may be utilized, of various years

-a 2011 6L has more in common with a 2014 6L than a 2014 5.7L would

 

Why would we not be able to/want to run the dual 6L's rather than two different engines?

[lpskier]

@unksskis I believe that the operative language is “where dual boats are required.” This circumstance would include instances where two boats are pulling a single event. An “event might be Men 1. A second event might be Men 2. It does not include situations where there are two boats available to pull different events at a tournament.

 

The only times you might see two boats pulling a single event is a large tournament like Nationals (where one division might be running in two parts on two lakes simultaneously) or a head to head event. In either case, the boats should be the same to make it fair. You won’t run in to that problem at a typical tournament and you certainly may use different boats to pull different events within a tournament.

[ForrestGump]

I would agree with @lpskier 's interpretation. Dual boats wouldn't apply to separate rounds within a tournament, only within the same round. Or head to head situations. I think that wording is already there. I could be wrong.

[unksskis]

Thank you, however, why is the year important and the engine/HP not?

[lpskier]

Point taken. Rule 8.02(e) specifically reference make, model and motor.

[skierjp]

Single puck and dual puck is probably more of a issue then engines or boats that are qualified to pull tournaments.

[RichardDoane]

my .02 - ZO version should be the latest issue, no matter what the year of the boat

[skierjp]

@Gloersen Agree

[Jody_Seal]

Like it ! Gives more opportunity for a loc to secure or make an agreement to have available a boat for competitions

The failure rate of the dual pucks have made that a mute point.

However I feel if someone or a group want to hold a competition and can hold to time and speed rules it should not matter weather it is ZO or Perfect pass or even a hand drive.

Finally the manufacturers grip on this sport has been partially pried out of their hands. It is monumental for this organization to even think about an open boat ideology let alone put it a vote!

 

 

[unksskis]

To clarify, the Rev is specified as well.

 

"Record Capability (Class E, L, R) tournaments and Class C tournaments may use

any prior year USA Water Ski Approved Tournament boat equipped with Zero Off

(rev R or rev S). The LOC and Chief Driver are responsible to ensure the boat is in

good operating condition, including required insurance."

 

Sorry, but my dual puck Rev R pulls just fine. If I'm willing to pull a tournament, there shouldn't be anything holding my boat back, nor the expectation that I update my boat in order to provide it for tournament use.

 

I agree with Jody, less rules and requirements will help put boats into the tournaments, and help those of us who will have to support tournaments with our personal boats. Let the skiers decide with their entry and pockets.

 

 

[skierjp]

@unksskis the difference in pull between a dual puck versus a single puck is huge.

[APB]

$25 per hour is way too low..... i understand its a recommendation however... its going to be hard to get an owner to trailer their $75000-100k boat to an event for $200-400.

 

$20 per skier plus expenses...... seems more reasonable.

[Jody_Seal]

@skierjp

No the difference is huge skiing between one manufacturer and another. Engine calibration to engine calibration. 5.3 vs 6.0 vs 5.7 vs direct inject engines. Differences between one manufacturers ZO Profiles vs anothers., even who might be installing other then tested programs vs inhanced programs.. Reduction boats vs 1:1 boats . Three blade props and four blade props. Elevation vs sea level.

Driver to driver. So what difference does it make if you ski rev A vs rev X ? Get off the sour coolaid, go ski behind whatever will pull you and nut up!!

[The_MS]

@Horton What Jody said!

[unksskis]

@skierjp not going to argue, I'm sure there are some differences, but we haven't noticed anything significant compared to the single puck boats, my boat slides into the rotation with no changes. Does it make people jump farther?

 

What does the huge, or any difference have to do with the boat being capable to pull a tournament? How is single puck so impactful that it be made a requirement?

 

At what point are we driving potential boats away from pulling tournaments, which drives tournaments away, which drives the skiers away.

 

These rules seem to be influenced by the expectation of Promo boats, or keeping boats updated every 2 years. That is not going to be the case moving forward for most areas. If I am expected to update my boat to Promo boat standards in order to volunteer it for use at a tournament that seems like a shortsighted and unreasonable expectation.

[dave2ball]

I agree with @skierjp in the fact a single puck does ski differently compared to a duel puck when comparing the same model boat with the same engine. IE a 200 with a 6L. The single puck is more responsive. But single puck or duel puck, gear reduction or 1:1 won’t really matter everyone will have the same boat for that event so adapt and overcome. Use your first 2 passes to feel the driver and boat out.

[skierjp]

All I’m saying is here in Florida and other areas I’ve skied do care if it is a up to date current boat. Back when Nautique offered the 5.3 and the 6 liter in their Promo Boats you couldn’t please anyone. One tournament wanted a 6 liter another would want the 5.3. Sure, you want to have a older boat and a older set up skiers are not use to? No problem, but I don’t see the entry fee being over $50. Grassroots maybe. Shoot skiers that never updated to Perfect Pass are still bitching about ZO.

Like I said before. I can remember when I was a new novice skier part of the draw for attending tournaments was being able to ski behind the latest and greatest boats in the industry.

I really don’t see a private individual offering up their boat for a tournament. Maybe once but not twice. By the time you upgrade your insurance,

have to be at the site before anyone else,

last to leave,

possible day off from work

get to spend the next day or two cleaning the boat,

if it’s damaged now this poor guy is out of a boat,

8 to 10 unanswered hours for one day of skiing where that may take you almost a month of personal skiing etc.

Guys, we have to support our local dealers. Promo boats are based around dealer location. The Promo Program is justified by boat sales. Why would you put a boat in the middle of a state that doesn’t have a dealer?

 

 

[dave2ball]

I do agree with@skierjp. I have worked closely with @skierjp for over 10 years on a promo program and like it or not he is correct about dealers and boat sales and other promo items. As far as private party using their personal boat most insurances will not cover promo boats at all, so by increasing your limits to cover a tournament may throw up red flags. And if there is an incident you may not be covered at all.

[unksskis]

@skierjp thank you for your response, you're perspective (and experience) is greatly appreciated, but I think we are in two different worlds, yours seems to be specifically from a Promo program perspective and how it supports tournaments. We're just trying to put on tournaments to help grow the sport locally, get people scores, and increase the interaction. We're not trying to attract R tournament chasers, we're simply trying to put on some tournaments, mainly because no one else is doing 3 event tournaments in the area.

 

I fully agree with supporting local dealers, I preach it. I speak with them regularly about the need for local support, although they have little to no interest in supporting waterskiing further vs wake/surf, and that's understandable, but it doesn't help us get boats for tournaments.

 

I do want to thank the Committee for advancing things and getting this proposal for payment going to support the program.

[Chad_Scott]

I think the difference between the single puck versus the dual puck is quite large. I can tell you that at least two boats in my area with the dual pucks are showing the date from the gps system as the year 2000. It also only picks up 5 to 7 satellites mostly with no differential. To check put the unit in practice mode and look at the top Just additional information regarding some of these dual puck systems

[dbutcher]

@dave2ball @skierjp: In anticipation of promo boat shortages, I had my personal boat insurance for 2020 endorsed to provide coverage while being used in USAWS sanctioned event. I already had $500k liability coverage (I believe everyone should have that much or more anyway), and the endorsement did not cost one penny in additional premium. I had to request this endorsement by letter to the company, and I am not completely satisfied with the way the endorsement is written. But, I do believe that it provides coverage while my boat is being used in an USAWS sanctioned tournament. My boat hasn't yet been used in a tournament, but I will keep the extra coverage in 2021.

[unksskis]

@skierjp @dave2ball @Chad_Scott

 

I don’t doubt there are differences between single and dual puck . Can any be specified regarding the pull or how it would impact tournament performance?

[Horton]

You can find a greater difference in pull between the four approved boats then you will find going from single to double puck. Double Puck is not ideal but seriously people if it gets good times get over it or ask for your entry fee back and go home.

 

Anyway I thought all of older pucks were failing because of a change in GPS technology so I'm not even sure why this is a subject.

[RAWSki]

I never had a problem having a club or site included as an additionally insured under my promo boats insurance. But fortunately never had a claim either.

Getting dealers involved is helpful for sure but Dealers don't sell enough DD boats period.

Thus the reason for this thread. Support of the dealerships needs to be thru service work, storage, Pro shop purchases, referrals etc.

I prefer single puck systems and upgraded when one of my duals failed. But if everyone was skiing a dual puck version R in a single round I would be fine with that.

 

[dave2ball]

@dbutcher your right adding USA to your insurance is free. And as far as additional coverage it should be 500K or better. Other then Chubbs or ski safe I don’t know any other insurance company that will cover a private boat in a tournament. And unfortunately you may not find that out until someone get injured.

@unksskis a duel puck system will not impact a tournament. As long as the same boat pulls an event it should be fine. I believe the point of duel vs single is that may skier have upgraded from a duel puck to a single puck system and if a duel puck boat was to pull an event it may throw many skiers off because the pull would be different.

The same could be said when someone trains behind a master craft and gets a TXI. the TXI will ski different regardless of the puck on the bow.

 

[Jody_Seal]

 

Why do you care if a boat is utilized with dual puck system?

You people will never show up to a tournament where that boat will be utilized anyway.

You all can ski your anal stick up your ass tournaments and let others ski under conditions that they can afford and have enjoyment and real competition.

Oh wait! I am sorry your afraid someone might get a score on the all mighty rankings list that in Your minds they don't deserve.

 

 

Promo programs as we knew them are done! period. 15 years ago CC had over 60 promos across the US with mc and mal near that many each.

Today CC has a tournament team of about 12-16 boats nation wide. Mc no promo, dealer option if they want to set someone in a ski boat. mal?? Probably the same scenario as MC. With only a few dealers nation wide that have any interest in the sport the opportunity to get a current boat becomes very hard for tournament organizers.

 

Insurance cost for boats utilized in competition in comparison with regular policys from other then ski safe I found to be $150-$300 more. I know cause I just shopped them. 2009 196 $380 per year with usaws tournament endorsement.

 

As far as private owners getting their boats dinged or damaged , what's the difference between them and a promo?

 

 

Again those of you that don't want to ski behind an older boat then don't!

Many of us will be happy to go sites like divorce lake tournament where they have repowered late 90s bubble butts that work every bit as well as what is current , maybe even better..

[skierjp]

.

[Golfguy]

When will we know if these proposed changes are excepted?

[lpskier]

Probably after the board meeting at the end of the month.

[Jody_Seal]

@lpskier

Maybe not , those rascals been keeping information secret again from our membership. Yesterday a post came across fb from awsa for a usaws volunteer national director. Seems the new showering rules from usoc requires more involvement and addition of elite athlete on all committees and leadership roles.

Shoot right now our southern region evp is keep it secrete where when what and how for our yearly winter meeting.... keith?

[ForrestGump]

Man, remember when we hand drove and hand timed? It's been 20 years, but I don't remember all that many people not having fun.

[Horton]

@ForrestGump remember when you were single and funny?

[ALPJr]

There’s a showering rule now. That should clean things up :)