SPEED & Outbound Swing // FREDDIE WINTER - FPM Podcast #6

[ROBOT]

[Dano]

Well done! So much good information in this video. The side by side of Fred and Nate was a great visual.

[Clydesdale]

Wow-great discussion of my weakest link. Thanks Marcus & Freddie!

[rq0013]

A topic I always want to learn more about and hear other's ideas and opinions. I think one aspect of swing that is key and not talked about as much, is whether or not the skier has created the "correct relationship" with the boat. I think the majority of us are being pulled by the boat rather than being free from the boat. I feel like if the skier is not free then the skier will be pulled to the inside at every ball with no space. Pro skiers create the relationship with the boat so easily. So how does a skier consistently "get free" so they can continue outbound off the second wake?

[MarcusBrown]

@rq0013 that is a great question, and something that is surprisingly counter-intuitive.

 

Try to keep it simple:

 

To swing outbound, requires energy....and the most abundant energy source, when water skiing, is the 350+ hp boat!

 

So, to swing outbound as efficiently and effectively as possible, you MUST stay connected to the boat from centerline outbound. That rope tension is what continues to swing you up on that boat and into the "correct relationship" with the boat.

 

To do that, you MUST control the movement of the feet outbound, relative to the handle (you may have heard @AdamCord @adamhcaldwell discuss this...they are spot on): if your feet move too far "out" and away from the handle too soon, the tension on the rope (and you're connection to the boat) immediately goes to ~zero....and you simply CANNOT swing up to the correct position on the boat. Of course, there's a lot more to it than this (i.e. what you did on the previous turn, how well you moved into centerline and how you are standing on the ski).

 

But to keep it as simple as possible, I would say this:

 

The better the skier is at managing rope tension the better that skier will ski = the more buoys she/he will run. Heading outbound, you want to maintain rope tension as long as possible....if you do that, then you will be in the correct position relative to the boat, at apex, to have the freedom to negotiate the change in direction you desire.

 

The fallacy in thinking, for many years, was that you needed to be "free" from the boat to swing outbound. The problem with that thinking is it doesn't work with the physics of how skiing works.

 

A graph of tension on the rope between any 2 buoys, ideally, should look pretty close to a standard bell curve: ~50 lbs of tension on the rope at either end (buoy) and max load somewhere in the middle....with a nice progressive curve between the 3 points

 

Let me know if this makes sense....trying to keep it simple, but can dive deeper into any aspect of it, if you want me to!

 

@Dano @Clydesdale thanks! and thanks for listening to it!

 

MB

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown funny what you said about free of the boat. I think of being free the boat as my ability to swing around the pylon with a tight line. Not being free of the boat means the boat is dragging me down the course ( like when my zero off was broken last Summer and the boat was getting perfect times but was not giving me any gas into the wakes)

[bsmith]

As a beginning course skier, my understanding of becoming free of the boat from everything I have read on BOS previously is that it happens at the end of the swing out before reaching apex and at about the same time I let go of the handle with the outside hand. It is the moment where I feel no pull from the boat such that is easy to let the ski turn inward towards the first wake.

 

This is in contrast to when a beginner first tries the course and they pull long to a buoy and never get any glide time, free of the boat, before trying to make the ski turn back in. In this mode, the beginner feels a significant pull from the boat at all times.

 

The beginner next learns that getting free of the boat is not just about obtaining some unloaded glide time towards the turn buoy, it is learning to get the right combination of speed across the wake with the right amount of deceleration to the buoy such that when the turn is initiated the skier still has enough speed to be free of the boat but not so much speed that the skier turns into a bunch of slack.

 

This understanding of being free of the boat may be wrong, but it is what I think I have learned from BOS over the past year.

[rq0013]

@MarcusBrown I understand the high-level concept you are talking about. Can expand on the controlling feet and handle movements? I think this is where the "meat is". When you say "move your feet too far out" is that in front of you, putting you more in a chair position or out to a more severe turning edge, tipping your hands and shoulders to the inside? Or could it be either. Are you saying as long as the skier has generated speed to centerline and not overloaded themselves, the longer they keep their handle and feet distance "close" through the transition, the higher on the boat they will ski? I sometimes feel i manage to keep my ski underneath me, not letting it shoot to a severe turning edge, but at the expense of a flatter ski and flatter path to the buoy. There seems to be a happy medium...

[buoyboy1]

@Marcus I may not be understanding you correctly when you stated that around 50 lbs of tension in the rope at/near each buoy. I would have thought that number to be a LOT less (like near zero) as many times just the tips of my fingers are on the handle at apex and/or the rope has so much slack it's in the water. Thanks and I look forward to more Podcasts.

[bishop8950]

Thanks @MarcusBrown and @FWinter, great stuff.

 

In my skiing over the last several years, improving how I move out past centerline has been the top priority. The light bulb went off that this is how I can run more buoys.

 

As you discussed, there are many prerequisites that need to be in place to enable you to swing out and up. I would like to hear more about common themes or mindsets you describe to skiers to help them wrap their heads around this. Here are my top 3 examples that have helped me and all of which mentioned in your discussion:

 

First, don’t try to get load as soon as you can off the buoy, you need to get fully under the line and allow the load to build on your way to the wake. After apex I tell myself “Wait for it...” and I try to ski as far as I can towards the first wake without the boat.

 

Second, (credit @AdamCord and @adamhcaldwell) “stand up” through the transition”.

 

Third (credit @matthewbrown) “make sure hips are over your feet”, not behind, as you swing through the transition.

 

In this clip you also discuss “back arm pressure” which is huge.

 

Any other keys to the right swing? What thought, goal or metric can I put in my head as I ski? I just want to go deeper down this rabbit hole. You guys have such a deep understand and also have analyzed so many skiers. Would love to hear more on this and this video format of the discussion is really effective.

 

[MarcusBrown]

@Horton do you remember the old days, when the 1st round felt like heaven (with Jack Wilson driving) and the second round felt like the boat was reverse slaloming the boat guides at 40 mph?? Somehow I don’t think a broken ZeroOff could feel as bad as some of the hand-driven rides from the pre-perfect pass days, but I get your point.

 

@rq0013 yes! When you asked “Are you saying as long as the skier has generated speed to centerline and not overloaded themselves, the longer they keep their handle and feet distance "close" through the transition, the higher on the boat they will ski?” The short answer is yes....

 

Regarding shortline slalom (28 off and shorter) One thing to realize, is that a good downswing (from buoy to centerline) requires input. Not leaning or loading AWAY from the boat (we are skiers, we’ve learned to do that no matter what) but rather finding an Athletic Stance where you leave your feet behind the rope, and move your mass in the direction you want to go —> towards centerline. If you can master this move, you will create max speed/acceleration with minimal rope load. Then, and only then, will you be able to feel the benefits of swinging higher on the upswing, by managing the movement of your ski away from the handle.

 

But, as @bishop8950 has pointed out, the big question is always HOW do you limit the movement of the ski outbound on the upswing?

 

Here’s the simple concept:

do whatever you can to maintain tension on the rope as you move into the upswing, without continuing to cut/edge. The region from Centerline to the edge of the whitewater, is usually where most skiers lose this battle. It’s too easy to anticipate the energy built up in the ski, and to simply “let it go” by compressing the legs, dropping the butt, or pushing the ski in front. ALL of these things will ultimately ALLOW the ski to shoot away from the handle and onto the turning edge too quickly, killing your upswing.

 

You MUST maintain an Athletic Stance, through the transition zone: The more you use the energy from the ski, to LIFT your body (hips/shoulders) higher above the lake through the transition zone, the more controlled the transition will be, and the higher you will swing.

 

Here’s a similar analogy....water ski jumping....lets not focus on anything but contact with the ramp, and I’m going to equate riding over the ramp with skiing through the transition zone in slalom. Those who jumped (or have seen a bit of jumping) know that to go farther, you must stay over your feet, kick the ramp, and not get crushed. If those conditions are met the skier transfers all the speed they carried into the base of the ramp, into vertical momentum when they hit the ramp. However, if they get crushed, or allow their skis to shoot in front, or to the side, OR slip behind....well, we can guess that they waste a lot of energy and bad things happen...shorter jumps or uncontrolled crashes.

 

This is basically what most of us slalom skiers have learned to do. We’ve learned to become comfortable with getting “crushed” or “slipping our feet in front or out the side” through the transition....and basically wasting all of that energy we so diligently built into centerline. It’s that simple.

 

When a jumper comes into the base of the ramp out of position, the safest move is to absorb the ramp and not try to kick it. If a jumper comes into the base in good position and tries to kick the ramp, but is not balanced, the skis will slip out.

 

In slalom, it is my opinion that learning to precisely maintain Athletic Stance through the transition is the most skilled move of them all. It’s akin to kicking the ramp. And just like jumping, to really nail it, you have to come into centerline with things set up pretty well, AND you have to be willing to resist (the “kick” in jumping) the ski shooting, and figure out how to ride it outbound.

 

Let me know how that sounds. The jump analogy might not make as much sense to some, but I think it pretty clearly illustrates the fundamental mechanics of how to maximize the upswing.

 

MB

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown I jumped in those days. Imagine how perplexing that was.

[jimski]

@MarcusBrown any video of this athletic position

Who does it the best that you have seen

Thanks