Sure Path

[jjackkrash]

I gotta say, this is a really cool product.

 

My boy is 13 and just started driving and I have been trying to explain that sliding sideways at the green balls to get lined up just in time for the gates won't cut it. It was hard to explain why; now I can just hit "replay" on the phone and show him in real time what that path looks like at 1, 2 and 3. "Oh, that's why."

 

On my side, with just one set under my belt, I picked up a few issues that I have probably been doing wrong for years; at least now I have something concrete to work on so I can fix it.

 

Two solid thumbs up.

[The_MS]

How long before you can buy a new boat with a built in puck on the pylon and integrated screen with ZO?

[jjackkrash]

@MS I would be shocked if they were not trying to work that out as we type. The puck should be built right into the top of the pylon.

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash @The_MS building an antenna into the pylon would at first seem an obvious thing to do. However it is problematic in that 1) the antenna needs to incorporate a ground plane at least 10cm in diameter, so not a small item 2) in tournament there is often additional equipment mounted on the pylon which interferes with GPS reception. Hence the antenna is often mounted to one side or higher above the additional kit and an offset (from boat centre) setting applied. An alternative location I would like to explore further is the gunwale on the driver side. In this location boat yaw and rock have little impact on the antennas position relative to the boat's centre and it is a quiet area of the boat with respect to passengers moving around etc.

[skiinxs]

I noticed on the Master's webcast that they had the antenna mounted offset to the driver's side. Since upgrading to the larger antenna this year, directly in front of the pylon made it very easy for the boat crew to bump it and move it off center. I tried the offset to the drivers side over the weekend and found that it is a much better location. My Skidoc mount is 13 cm from the center of the pylon to the center of the antenna, so I simply put in a +13 cm offset. It is out of the way in this location any slight bump and movement would have a minor effect on center line. I also like that the software reminds the user that the offset is not zero every time it is put into tracking mode. One other note, with the larger antenna and switching to powering with a power bank instead of boat power, I have not missed any portion of any passes at all this year. I highly recommend the larger antenna and power bank.

[Laz]

Any Canadian suggestions for data only cell provider? I found luckymobile.ca. They have a 750mb plan for $15/month using the Bell network. It is limited to 3G speeds but believe Sure-Path does not need a lot of bandwidth.

 

Has anyone tried this?

[jjackkrash]

What is involved in switching to someone else's base station at a different site? I have my base station in a tool box so I can pack up and move between sites, but I'd like to mount it permanently on a pole at one lake and use by buddy's base station at our other site instead of keeping my base station mobil.

[Not_The_Pug]

@jjackkrash You just need to enter their Base station ID and Password in your rover phone, under GPS/Network info. You can also transfer their course file so you don't have to map it.

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash as @Not_The_Pug says, the two settings that need changing are "Sure-Path Mountpoint" and "Sure-Path Password". Make sure you note your existing settings first before changing anything.

[jjackkrash]

@Jtim3032, is there a way to save the changes and to easily switch back between saved files so I don't have to "note existing settings" each time I switch? I ski weekend at one lake and weekdays at the other and it would be nice to be able to easily slide back and forth.

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash Unfortunately there isn't at present. It was never envisaged that the rover would be switching between sites as regularly as that. I will have a think about it as it would entail quite a change in the user interface for that.

[jjackkrash]

@Jtim3032, thanks. I think it would be nice to be able to have one base station at a site and then travel with your boat and rover without hauling around the base station (as I would prefer to put the base station on a pole and leave it set up). As more lakes get a base station I think this would be a popular feature, especially for promo boats that travel. But, I am still stoked about the product. I can travel with my tool box no biggy.

[Not_The_Pug]

@Jtim3032 it would be a nice feature for us promo boat people. To have a way to save Mountpoint and PW as we go to multiple lakes. Most around me now have a base station.

 

Currently I'm just saving them in a notepad file.

[Jtim3032]

@Not_The_Pug @jjackkrash ... yes I think the way to do this properly is to be able to save a "Settings Profile" which would include most/all the settings on the "GPS & Network Settings" screen. Hold my beer....

[Ali]

I ordered an extra antenna for the base station and have it mounted on a pole at the end of the lake. So when the base station moves to another lake the antenna stays behind and the rest moves to the secondary location along with the non fixed antenna.

[markn]

When I first heard about Sure Path, must admit I was skeptical. Thought it was unnecessary technology looking for a problem. Today I had the opportunity to try it out. WOW, must admit, pretty dang cool. Drove 8 passes in a 2020 Nautique I had never driven. Skier was only at 28 off 36 mph, but what an excellent training tool. Having been a senior driver in the past, thought I was an ok driver. Yes, every pass was green, but I saw where I could improve to give the skier a better ride and the fact the data is in real time, not sure why there is an objection to using it in R tournaments. Maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[jjackkrash]

@Jtim3032 I need a little trouble shooting help. We can back to the lack tonight and I remapped the base station because we had moved it a bit and saved it to the same file. Then we went in the boat and did everything like we did before. The system was acting like we were driving parrell to the course but way outside it. When we got data it was PG: -221 [bouy] / blank [for cum] / -221 [for zone]. No data for gates or buoys. We tried remapping the base station a few times but could not get different results. I also tried powering down the rover phone a few times. We had "fix" the whole time. Do I need to remap the course for some reason? Is there something I am missing?

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash - what you have to remember is that when the course is mapped, everything is relative to the base antenna. This means that if the base antenna is moved, or the base does a "self survey" (it comes up with a different position each time you do this because the self survey accuracy is standard GPS, +/- 5 metres or even more), any previously mapped course will move as well. Hence you need to remap the course each time either of those things happen.

[jjackkrash]

@Jtim3032, got it. Thanks.

[Jody_Seal]

 

This guy needed shurpath!

 

[Alberto Soares]

@Jtim3032 - sent you a PM, please check, thank you.

[ryno65]

@Jody_Seal that one was tracking a Shore Path

[jjackkrash]

Quick report. My 13 year old boy just started driving the course this spring. He was pretty shocked at the boat path and how far out of path he was after we hooked up sure path. But in just a few days paying attention and learning from the feedback he was driving most passes in tolerance even with me yoking him around. Really, really cool product in my book.

[jjackkrash]

Is the offset on the driver side +11 cm if with the upgraded gps puck and mount?

[skiinxs]

Depends on the mount. The SkiDoc is 13cm.

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash @skiinxs Using the Sure-Path pylon mount for the white antenna it is 11cm. It is 10.7cm for the mount for the black UBlox puck style antenna.

[jjackkrash]

New question: How high up the pylon do you need the GPS puck? I had it lower but was having a hard time holding "fix". I also had the bimini up and was wondering of the bimini would interfere with GPS signal. It seemed to hold better when it was higher up the pylon but maybe there's something else going on.

 

Also, we would like to verify that our course is in tolerance, is there a decent place for a tutorial for a course survey using Sure-Path? I had my boy download the homologation software from AWSA website and could use a little step by step tutorial if there is one.

[Andre]

When it comes to a course survey,i would only trust the old fashion way...

[MichaelGoodman]

Sure path works incredible for surveying you can do each buoy independently

super easy and extremely accurate. The system is worth it just for the surveying

capabilities.

[JackQ]

@MichaelGoodman I totally agree. It would have taken days to do with a surveyor what ShurPath allowed. I was able to do a few buoys at day, as it takes multiple dives to get exactly where I want, vice close enough. I have the entrance gates within 1cm or less (most within a few Millimeters) of perfect and the boat guides +/- 2cm. Our course was surveyed and within record tolerance previously, but it is much more accurate now, thanks to Sure Path.

[MichaelGoodman]

@JackQ Doing them one at a time makes it so nice like you said you can take

your time and do it over several days if needed. If the wind comes up no big deal you

can come back the next day.

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash the lower down the pylon you have the antenna, the more you reduce it's view of the sky (and hence fewer satellites) and hence the harder it is to retain Fix mode. The Bimini seems to have little effect on the GPS signal as it doesn't contain water which is normally the worst culprit for absorbing and reducing GPS signal strength. It is water content which makes trees so bad for reducing GPS. Buildings are bad because their walls give rise to reflected gps signals which can confuse the receiver as well as possibly reducing view of the sky.

[jjackkrash]

If I am surveying the slalom course with sure-path for homologation purposes, what is the order I need to survey each gate, boat guide and turn buoy? Do I start with gates and work my way to 1 ball the 1-ball boat guide from right to left? Then do I do 2 ball boat guides then 2-ball right to left? Is the a chart somewhere I can look at? Thanks in advance.

[Jtim3032]

@jjackkrash For homologation purposes it doesn't really matter what order you map each buoy. However, I would do the entrance and exit gates first since once those have been mapped, Sure-Path will give you an indication of how far out any other buoy is as you map it. For an indication of what ID each buoy has, see this page sure-path.com/survey-data-transfer.html for a link to download the Lion homologation program which has a graphic view of the course with IDs shown. You will need this program in any case for a formal homologation.

[skierjp]

@Jtim3032 Is there any chance later on in the future there will be a wireless upgrade so we won’t need the wire from the antenna to the GPS receiver while surveying and mapping the course?

[lpskier]

@skierjp I bought an extra length of cable to address the issue you refer to.

[jjackkrash]

Is "B1" the right 1ball boat guide and "B2" the left 1ball boat guide and B3 the right 2ball boat guide and B4 the left 2ball boat guide (as you are looking down the course from the pre-gates entering the course), and so on? And is PG1 the right pregate and PG2 the left pregate?

[jjackkrash]

Thanks folks.

[Jtim3032]

@skierjp I'm afraid that is very unlikely as a coaxial link from antenna to receiver is the only link efficient enough to give good reception. More likely is some way of mounting the receiver and antenna together so that they are effectively one unit. However this is still difficult as you have to include a power supply and it all adds to the weight. One or two customers have designed and built their own circular "carriers" that allow for all this and that float on the water rather than rest on the buoy. This works very well when you only have to cater for one buoy diameter. You would have a different one for cylindrical boat lane guides. Of course, with even more design, you could add buoy diameter adjustment but then you end up with something that doesn't fit in luggage very well. I built a very early prototype that was 3D printed which was essentially an inverted cone that slid up and down inside a floating cylinder. It worked...but was huge

and no self respecting TC was ever going to travel with it ?. It also took 90 hours to print!!!

[Jtim3032]

 

[Jtim3032]

Or if you have a friend who has access to an industrial 3D printer, you have a lot of options.... :smile: (thanks to Toni Beier)

 

https://facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10219252344170666&set=pcb.10219252344690679

 

[jjackkrash]

My crew wanted to survey our public-lake course but I didn't have time so I dowloaded the homologation software onto a lap top and dropped off the rover and the laptop and let the fellas figure it out. It turns out the course was not crazy bad but not in tolerance either. It sounds like there was a learning curve figuring out the equipment and then determining the best way to move the anchors, but a week later and a lot of work pulling up and moving anchors in some cold water, and now all the red and green balls are dead bang on. The crew got cold and tired and did not get to the boat guides but will get the boat guides perfect in the spring.

 

I gotta say this is some remarkably useful equipment.

[lpskier]

Does anyone have a good design for a device to place the rover antenna over the bullet- shaped boat guides for survey purposes? The “hat” that comes with Sure Path is sometimes less than stellar for boat guide purposes.

[skiinxs]

This is not my design but it works great, credit to Dean Chappell for the design!

[skiinxs]

 

[Jtim3032]

@Gloersen ... combinations of ppp and rtk are advancing it seems but very much at a price. A ppp-rtk receiver has recently become available which receives correction data directly from satellites instead of DOT NTRIP servers but at over $1000 a pop and $30/month subscription, it's pretty expensive. And then it may not produce centimetre level accuracy either. That said, if your site has absolutely no cell coverage, then it may be an option. I may get one of these to evaluate later this year.

[Jtim3032]

@Gloersen ... and yes, you still need comms with the scoring/judging applications. I still think setting up a decent WiFi LAN has a lot going for it but getting the IT right is not trivial.

[bojans]

I am planning on setting up our surepath system this weekend. We have a floating dock with a large shade structure. The dock obviously moves up and down with boat waves but is otherwise very stable. Could the base antenna be mounted to the share structure on the dock or would the movement be too much to provide accurate results?

[Jtim3032]

@Gloersen ... thank you ?

 

@bojans although in theory vertical movement (of the floating jetty) shouldn't affect the boat lane tracking, I would avoid anything moving for the base antenna as such a scenario hasn't been tested. My guess is that at the very least the base receiver would have more work to do in generating corrections and the results may be unpredictable.

[Jtim3032]

@Gloersen the one new bit of tech that will hopefully come down in price sooner rather than later are so called triple band receivers and antennas. At present they are double or triple the price of the SP dual band receivers, but offer millimetre level accuracy. Maybe overkill for our purposes but kinda cool ?