Auto Steer vs Sure Path

[Jody_Seal]

 

My question,  does this sport really need this type of technology? many of the same folks on this site are at odds with the cost and availability of the sport. but yet many of you see this type of technology as a savior!! lets add another cost just so some of you can feel better that some one else did not get their rankings "score" because a driver was cheating! or were they?? we talk about the rules surrounding this technology, yet there are some that will stand there and tell you that these systems are accurate and consistent. I have to disagree.

 

16 hours ago, Stejcraftben said:

Auto steer has been used in farming for decades. You can fit it to your ride on mower if you wanted to. I’m surprised this hasn’t been done sooner. 

just a reminder you can always walk away from your tractor. and the tractor does not do its work at 58K

I doubt any boat company would install or allow any type steering assist component on their ski/wake boats.. these systems would have to be USCG approved here in the US and that also will require CE certification.. $$$$$! These systems would find them selves on vessels on public water. It takes very little for a major accident with the system in the boat it is not hard to get a smart attorney claiming the system was a contributing factor, Any product liability insurance on these types of controls would be astronomical.

Edited September 8 by Jody_Seal

[PatM]

I agree with @Jody_Seal.  Sure Path itself eliminates cheating (or perceived cheating) by a boat driver.  

[BraceMaker]

On 9/8/2024 at 9:07 AM, Jody_Seal said:

 

just a reminder you can always walk away from your tractor. and the tractor does not do its work at 58K

I doubt any boat company would install or allow any type steering assist component on their ski/wake boats.. these systems would have to be USCG approved here in the US and that also will require CE certification.. $$$$$! 

OK so tell me how this is wrong.

How many degrees of steering does a rudder move during a shortline skier pass through the course.  Its not lock to lock what is it though 2 degrees 3 degrees of rudder deviation?

Modify the steering tube support make the support an arm that goes to a servo.  That servo moves the clamp block forwards and backwards and has a mechanical advantage.  Its fully fail safe worst case scenario the servo linkage breaks and the steering block is loose.

The servo worse case scenario goes fully the wrong direction and now you have plenty of steering travel the other way to steer around it.  Some sort of dead ahead detent position for the steering wheel or LED to display to tell the driver where the wheel should be.  

How is this a difficult system to implement?  How many degrees of movement would you need to have if you're shifting the pivot block to send a ski boat straight down a course with very minimal driver input and very low risk of loss of control?  Pretty similar to how even if PP gives full throttle it is only giving the actual throttle full control. In this case a 100% error is still in control.

5 minutes ago, BraceMaker said:

OK so tell me how this is wrong.

How many degrees of steering does a rudder move during a shortline skier pass through the course.  Its not lock to lock what is it though 2 degrees 3 degrees of rudder deviation?

Modify the steering tube support make the support an arm that goes to a servo.  That servo moves the clamp block forwards and backwards and has a mechanical advantage.  Its fully fail safe worst case scenario the servo linkage breaks and the steering block is loose.

The servo worse case scenario goes fully the wrong direction and now you have plenty of steering travel the other way to steer around it.  Some sort of dead ahead detent position for the steering wheel or LED to display to tell the driver where the wheel should be.  

How is this a difficult system to implement?  How many degrees of movement would you need to have if you're shifting the pivot block to send a ski boat straight down a course with very minimal driver input and very low risk of loss of control?  Pretty similar to how even if PP gives full throttle it is only giving the actual throttle full control. In this case a 100% error is still in control.

This unit doesn't have to be oriented as pictured either there are different sorts of servos that put out plenty of torque for the application, the pivot bearing block could easily be a bellcrank on bearings etc. etc.

[chrislandy]

@BraceMaker I'd put it on one of the tracking fins (probably rear) with the pivot at the front of the fin. That way, in a failure situation the natural flow of the water will straighten the fin (same as having caster on your car front wheels). Then use a low throw, high torque servo to rotate the fin +/-10deg or so as required for very minor movements which can be overrun by the driver input on the main rudder. 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

15 minutes ago, chrislandy said:

@BraceMaker I'd put it on one of the tracking fins (probably rear) with the pivot at the front of the fin. 

 

As I illustrated this a retrofit kit would simply be a bracket that would bolt to the steerer tube support, clamp to the existing steering cable, run a wiring loom up the to dash, and IF you wanted to include some sort of steering implementation you could simply have a collar that dropped onto the splines behind the wheel pop a hole though the dash plug in a wire inside the helm's rubber coupler and done.

This could be a plug and play part for essentially all inboard ski boats that would take ~1 hour to install and be universal.  Assuming you've had your steering wheel off in the last 20 years and the rear floor out maybe you'd have to drill a few holes into the steerer tube support.

The arm could be mechanically blocked to prevent excessive throw so even if the servo arm or linkage became disconnected the unit would have a certain defined failure - basically eliminating potential for life threatening failure modes.

[DW]

@BraceMaker - I assume I am missing the part where you lock the steering wheel when the auto steer is engaged.  If you don’t how do you account for the degree of freedom or are you assuming the servo will be fast enough to compensate?  If you throttle up an engaged PP, the speed does ramp up before correcting itself.

[BraceMaker]

@DW I see lots of potentially easy applications, a solenoid with a rubber wheel that bears on a disc with a detent position would be easy to implement potentially the pressure of the roller would be the switch to engage the system.  Would drop over the steering shaft before the wheel and then you would apply the wheel and nut to finish the install.  Probably have to drill a hole in the helm to install something like that.

Could be done down at the cable itself with essentially a band brake on the steerer tube.

I'm just indicating that controlling the position of the steering tube is an engineered way to have a system that can turn the boat but only in a small arc that leaves the driver in 100% control of the vessel at all times - a couple of degrees either way for guidance.

 

 

 

[buechsr]

On 9/8/2024 at 9:07 AM, Jody_Seal said:

 

My question,  does this sport really need this type of technology? many of the same folks on this site are at odds with the cost and availability of the sport. but yet many of you see this type of technology as a savior!! lets add another cost just so some of you can feel better that some one else did not get their rankings "score" because a driver was cheating! or were they?? we talk about the rules surrounding this technology, yet there are some that will stand there and tell you that these systems are accurate and consistent. I have to disagree.

 

just a reminder you can always walk away from your tractor. and the tractor does not do its work at 58K

I doubt any boat company would install or allow any type steering assist component on their ski/wake boats.. these systems would have to be USCG approved here in the US and that also will require CE certification.. $$$$$! These systems would find them selves on vessels on public water. It takes very little for a major accident with the system in the boat it is not hard to get a smart attorney claiming the system was a contributing factor, Any product liability insurance on these types of controls would be astronomical.

Malibu has offerred hydraulic steering for years.  Granted, would seem the system being contemplated would need to be electric, but the outboard market has shifted that way too, now that everything is drive by wire in that market.  

[Jody_Seal]

yea but why? Why the effort? are you gimmick heads that crappy of drivers? do you really think this is worth the effort in such a small small sport?

Now having said that and having already done many of the exercises now in play for a steering adjust mechanism. ill say again i really doubt any manufacturer in their right minds would allow any sort of extraneous mechanism on the steering component. it will have to be compliant. with all federal regulations, laws and rules and tested.

1 hour ago, chrislandy said:

@BraceMaker I'd put it on one of the tracking fins (probably rear) with the pivot at the front of the fin. That way, in a failure situation the natural flow of the water will straighten the fin (same as having caster on your car front wheels). Then use a low throw, high torque servo to rotate the fin +/-10deg or so as required for very minor movements which can be overrun by the driver input on the main rudder. 

Give this man a cigar!!

Centurion did that. had a articulating front fin.. The front fin idea would get my vote as far as a steering aid or component to AI steering.

we went down the fluid steering exercise a number of years ago and fluid rupture was the deciding factor. Flat-bottom inboard boats with barrel sides and deep reverse chines are subject to unfriendly events ,not the most stable in some conditions and do not rebound from extreme roll like a v bottom boat does.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, buechsr said:

Malibu has offerred hydraulic steering for years.  Granted, would seem the system being contemplated would need to be electric, but the outboard market has shifted that way too, now that everything is drive by wire in that market.  

Outboards do not have loaded up rudders.

Edited September 9 by Jody_Seal
was talking on phone and typing at the same time!!

[buechsr]

21 hours ago, Jody_Seal said:

 

Outboards do not have loaded up rudders.

I fail to see the relevance?  Using current mechanical (cable) connection, all rudder torque is delivered to the helm.  People don't have trouble "hanging on" to a torque'd up rudder.  Putting a 300hp (and up) outboard in a significant turn is loading up an electric system more than torqued rudder going straight.  The new 600 hp Merc uses an electric over hydraulic system.  The potential is there for plenty of strength IMO.

[Jody_Seal]

41 minutes ago, buechsr said:

I fail to see the relevance?  Using current mechanical (cable) connection, all rudder torque is delivered to the helm.  People don't have trouble "hanging on" to a torque'd up rudder.  Putting a 300hp (and up) outboard in a significant turn is loading up an electric system more than torqued rudder going straight.  The new 600 hp Merc uses an electric over hydraulic system.  The potential is there for plenty of strength IMO.

inboards and outboards you are trying to equate apples with oranges.. the only constant is that they are both boats.

Do You have any back ground in boat design and development? i think if we knew more about you we could better understand.  how about propulsion development? i ask only because you come off as knowledgeable but yet not much if any experience nor background in the boat industry...

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@Jody_Seal how many degrees of rudder swing in your estimation does a ski boat use from the entry gates to the exit gates.  Worst case scenario but must be in tolerance.  IE if the boat path is extreme we're ignoring it.

 

[Jody_Seal]

14 minutes ago, BraceMaker said:

@Jody_Seal how many degrees of rudder swing in your estimation does a ski boat use from the entry gates to the exit gates.  Worst case scenario but must be in tolerance.  IE if the boat path is extreme we're ignoring it.

 

that's a loaded question, a good prepared boat maybe 20 degrees? overall. whats funny for a correct craft i used have that info as we had a potentiometer on our test boats when we started with the newer rack cables and we were testing the Hobbs speed control system.

[buechsr]

22 minutes ago, Jody_Seal said:

inboards and outboards you are trying to equate apples with oranges.. the only constant is that they are both boats.

Do You have any back ground in boat design and development? i think if we knew more about you we could better understand.  how about propulsion development? i ask only because you come off as knowledgeable but yet not much if any experience nor background in the boat industry...

 

Am I?  Both an outboard and an inboard with rudder both provide directional thrust to a floating object. 

Earlier you questioned whether any manufacturer would offer any steering assist system due to compliance and regs.  In fact, Malibu has offerred a hydraulic system for years.  I don't know if you've driven a surfgated Malibu before (w/o hydraulic assist) but the torque experienced by the driver is exponentially more intense than a torqued up ski boat.  Thus, the hydraulic system removes all torque from the helm, even though it is still mechanically connected.  Steer by wire, on outboards (and perhaps soon to be inboards) allows many benefits to mechanical and even hydraulic system, and in this potential application a faster-reacting and infinitely repeatable boat path.  Electric steering systems are not particularly expensive, either BTW.  We already run throttle by wire, adding an electric steer by wire system is the next logical step IMO.

I don't see why whether I've developed boats has any relevance to pointing out this is very feasible, and that the  system in a ski boat wouldn't experience near the forces of those exerted by outboards (which, notably must control the entirety of the powerhead, not just direction of thrust).