If you bought a used boat on Ski-it-Again that was supposed to be "excellent" but....

[blakeyates]

I assisted a disabled skier that previously represented USAWS at Nationals, Worlds, & local events. He had been away from skiing for 15 years and now he's back. He asked me to help him find a boat. The owner of the boat that we looked at said the boat was a "9 out of 10" regarding condition. It was a 2010 Nautique 200 w/602 hours; fairly clean cosmetically although not cleaned up (detailed). I went to test drive the boat and everything checked out fine. Seller says he changed the oil every 25 hours vs the normal 50 hours. I paid him for the boat, pulled it back to GA. 2 or 3 days later, we took it to the lake and we were never able to get it off the trailer. It had hydro-locked with water in the pistons and we attempted to crank the engine, it sounded very bad. Boat went back to our shop (new owner is a mechanic), and he pulled the plugs - water shot out of all 8 pistons. He then pulled the exhaust manifolds, & risers; then machined the manifold surfaces to exact tolerances, cleaned rust & gunk from risers, replaced impeller, new gasket, flushed crankcase and removed more deposits, and then did a final oil change. Prior to flush & changing oil, engine was running and we pulled a hot oil sample from the dipstick with a sampling pump. New owner also noticed rust on the end of the dipstick which indicates this isn't the first time this has happened. See attached oil analysis. I called the co-owner and explained everything that we did in attempts to do a complete repair and went over the oil analysis results with him. I then asked that they provide some compensation due to the above issues. I am trying to give the seller the 'benefit of doubt' but suspicion has crept in. I am leaving the seller's name anonymous for now in the event that he chooses to do the right thing.

 

Poll Question - Should the seller provide some measure of compensation since this occurred the very first time we attempted to crank the boat?

 

[LoopSki]

Did the seller draw up a sales agreement stating condition of the boat? Most private used boat transactions are written up " as is " condition. You can always ask and hope he does the right thing. Otherwise dont think you can do much else. You test dtove it and took possession. Luckily the new owner is a mechanic!

[keithh2oskier]

At the end of the day, its a 10 year old boat with several hundred running hours. There was no warranty provided so I would expect 99% of the time its bought as is and is on the buyers responsibility to get the PPI done.

 

It sucks as a buyer. I have been there with a dirtbike at a time i really didn't have money for an engine rebuild which it fully required.

 

I like to think I keep my vehicles in above average running shape but when I sell something its now the buyers problem.

 

 

 

 

 

[mlange]

Confused. You stated "I went to test drive the boat and everything checked out fine." Then less than a week later it won't even start and it's ingested water.

 

Don't understand how both of those could be accurate. Are you thinking that something happened between when you test drove it and when you received it?

[RichardDoane]

the cliche is, "let the buyer beware" sorry to hear but without a specific warranty contract it was an "as-is" purchase, you'll be able to tell if the seller has any measure of integrity by how he responds

[LoopSki]

Plus you guys tore down the engine. Thats taking owmership and can become a he said , she said situation.

[Horton]

@blakeyates might be irrelevant but what was the sale price?

[keithh2oskier]

Where did the boat originate from. Could harm have been done due to weather and not being winterized during transport?

[oldjeep]

New owner also noticed rust on the end of the dipstick which indicates this isn't the first time this has happened

 

I don't know about that - rust forms pretty quick when you fill the pan with water. Did you ever figure out what caused the hydrolock? Are the exhaust flappers still there? At the end of the test drive did the throttle get dumped to neutral and the engine shut off at the same time?

 

And did you pull the dipstick before or after the test run?

 

I'd say you bought what you bought and wouldn't expect any sort of compensation for issues with a 10 year old boat that you test drove.

 

Edit: Also I'd expect the oil analysis to be showing all sorts of hell if the pan got filled with water and then sat for 3 days rusting up the innards of the motor and then it got an oil change - started and ground all that rust on the cylinder walls and your bearings into the oil.

 

[ski6jones]

The time for a detailed check of the mechanicals was before purchase. You own it now.

[oldjeep]

Out of curiosity - how is the oil pressure and compression now?

[2Valve]

Independent of trying to gain some compensation, you want to fix the boat, right?

 

I had an older Four Winns many years ago that suffered a microscopic fracture in the head in #3 cylinder (4.3L Vortec V6). This happened due to my own ignorance about never changing the impeller as the boat was five years old when it suddenly overheated.

 

Long story short, the engine hydro-locked every time I tried to start it, as water was filling #3 cylinder. This resulted in the starter mounts cracking, resulting in having the engine block re-welded.

 

When I finally pulled the heads and had them magnafluxed, the crack was revealed.

 

I sold the boat to a close friend with full disclosure, basically pricing it without the engine. I paid for all the repairs and it was running fine, but still couldn't sell it as a non-damaged boat. He still has it, and it's running perfect.

 

My advice, starting pulling parts like the heads, exhaust manifolds, etc. and have them checked by an expert.

 

 

[braindamage]

I once bought a Jeep at a fundraiser auction and the engine died on the way home due to no oil. I’m the buyer, and I should’ve checked the oil prior to driving it, though the owner was giving tours and revving the engine during the auction.

I never even told the PO. I bought it, it’s mine, so I’ve got to deal with it.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Bummer

 

as i read it, it was driven once successfully. Was there rust on the dipstick when it was picked up? was it checked then?

 

possibly overheated when test drove and then cooled/contracted and pulled water up the risers and sat like that till tried again.

 

I'm not sure one could conclude much from rust on a dipstick three-four days later. Cast iron rusts within hours.

 

If it was the very first time you cranked the boat, now was it test driven?

 

Maybe its just the wording but my spock-logic is twitchy

[swc5150]

Would a diacom reading give you any idea of historical issues? I know it'll at least show you qty of trouble codes.

 

My opinion is after a test drive and handing over the funds, the prior owner no longer has any responsibility.

 

Was the seller the original owner? Was it on a private ski lake? Just curious if you know any history on it.

[oldjeep]

Diacom is fairly useless from a historical perspective. It'll show you things like how many hours at what RPM. The active codes might show something, but the inactive codes can be easily cleared and that would be the norm if someone was hooked up reading them.

[rico]

This sucks and I hope you get the boat running smooth.

 

1- Your poll doesn't make sense. This should be multiple answers options not multiple questions.

2- If you tried the boat, you should make absolutely sure all is well. Bring a mechanic or find a boat you or your friends know.

3- If the price was market price and the engine shows signs of bad maintenance, I would expect the seller to make a gesture but It's up to them.

 

I sold a 97 Nautique a few years ago. I took care of it and it was really clean. I told the buyer that they could come drive and ski the boat for the whole day / week end but once they sign and take it away, they are on their own

 

I sold a 08 Nautique (very high hours) more recently. I bought it off a friend and sold it to a friend a year later. The buyer came and ski with me a dozen times before buying. He inspected the engine, drove, checked the maintenance records and even talked to my mechanic. He took the boat away and the engine died within the first few rides. I felt really bad but sometimes, it is just bad luck.

 

I really hope you get things resolved.

[Jmoski]

Sorry to hear that. In the end in regards to chasing the seller for some compensation IMHO it comes down to “good faith”. If the seller intentionally misled you or covered up major issues, that would not be acting in good faith and is worth at least trying. Note, while you could chase him in court - it’s probably a losing battle as the courts just aren’t fair despite what you see on tv.

 

If the seller was acting in good faith I agree with the other posters than I wouldn’t chase the seller.

 

Hope you get the 200 back to life.

[WoodySkier]

You bought bought used as is, 10 years old with 600 hours. While the owner was a little misleading, it’s as is.

[Brewski]

600 hrs. 10+ yrs 9 outta 10 nothing adds up. Did you start it when you picked it up? Sounds like a a simple worn out bellow/flapper issue causing water to go back into the cylinders when the motor shuts off. Had the same issue with a 1981 Replace the exhaust flappers.

 

[skiinxs]

@blakeyates As others have mentioned, I am confused by your statement. If you took it for a test drive and checked it out before you towed it home, the engine was fine at that time, and it is really tough luck that the very next time it was started there was a failure. That is assuming that nothing in the tear down indicated that something was Mcgivered by the seller. If purchased with no warranty, the seller has no obligation, although if it was something I had sold, I would have a hard time saying no with those circumsances. If it was actually purchased without a test drive and the seller said all was good, then the seller has an obligation. By the way, never, ever, ever buy a used boat without a test drive.

[blakeyates]

@mlange , everything I posted is accurate. If the problem had occurred previously, the seller could have removed the plugs, pushed the water out of the pistons so that the next time the boat is running, it would crank fine. Once it has been started up and been in operation for a few minutes, water could/would be pulled back in. Then, the next time you attempt to start, the water hydro-locks the boat.

[blakeyates]

@skiinxs, that's why I did this post; to get other's opinions. I know what I would have done had I been me in the seller's situation. I've asked a few other people about this guy, and two out of two people did not give me a good report. He "knew" what he was doing.

[Buxrus]

@blakeyates , Man I am really sorry for you and your friend. Of course you know what you and I would do in this situation as a seller. However money seems to supersede integrity. The chasm between our expectation and reality is misery. Unfortunately for your happiness and sanity moving on is the best option. Good luck.

[Orlando76]

Caveat Emptor. It sucks but you bought a used boat from an individual as is, no warranty. I feel your pain, I kinda been there. I do feel like from your statements that there were a lot of rightful mechanical steps a serious potential buyer could’ve done before purchase that were neglected. Whether the seller was deceitful or not, he doesn’t owe you a thing.

[mlange]

This just sucks at so many levels.

 

I take a lot of pride in whatever my current boat is and baby the hell out of it. I also couldn't lie to save my life. So when I'm selling a boat I'm overly conservative in how I describe it and point out everything that someone may miss so they aren't disappointed in something down the line right down to the smallest scratches or vinyl imperfections.

 

Sadly there are dishonest people out there that pride in taking advantage of others.

[skihacker]

IMHO a truly hydrolocked motor wouldn't crank fine and start right up the next time. I've seen plenty of motors drink a little coolant and they start really hard, crank uneven, skip and pop and such for the first few seconds then maybe smooth out, I feel like this is a big stretch.

[DW]

Reading your original post, just my thoughts, it does not appear that the root cause of the hydro lock was corrected. Simply machining the mating surfaces of the exhaust manifolds probably would not solve a water ingestion issue. Best case and it only requires a set of exhaust tip baffles to correct consider that a win as that is a very cheap fix. Hydrolock can cause a lot of internal engine damage so it behooves you guys to fix the root cause. Did the boat come from a climate that has a freeze condition, lack of proper winterization is a common issue.

[BraceMaker]

I've been on the other side of the coin where I sold a used car (BMW) which within a couple of days had a cooling system issue that I'd never had and the guy cooked the engine and tried to come at me as if I misrepresented the condition of the car. Sucks to be him but I had no possession of the vehicle when the damage occured, he received it and checked it out and test drove it to his satisfaction its not my job to watch his dash for engine coolant level lights while he drives.

 

And so to play devils advocate - it is entirely possible that this boat has never once hydrolocked on him and that the guy changed the oil frequently but that the engine is suffering a bearing failure.

 

What supports my conclusion on this is that an engine that regularly hydrolocks doesn't have fuel dilution and no water contamination in the oil. No clue on the rusty tip of the dipstick.

 

So here's the question did this guy semi-regularly get hydrolock - dump the water and change the oil then run it for awhile but not have a hydrolock condition that oil change and then you came and bought it? even in that situation I'd expect if you were getting water in the engine often enough to rust the tip of the dip stick that you'd have a higher water concentration for several oil changes.

[vtmecheng]

Buying a used vehicle always puts the risk on the buyer, unless some kind of legal document is signed by both parties agreeing to something different. It sounds like the pre-purchase inspection should have been more detailed and I'm surprised that your friend didn't send you with a list to go through being a mechanic. Rust on the dip stick would be a warning. Water in the oil would be seen as a milky look and you can usually see it on the oil fill cap. I would also start it, drive around, do more inspections, and start it back up again. You want to know how it starts both cold and hot. Pulling at least one spark plug is also included prior to starting and would show if things are getting into the cylinder, if there's any corrosion in there, or if the combustion sucks. If you didn't do these basic things in addition to a whole lot more, then the risk of buying into serious problems is going to be higher.

 

Something that doesn't sit well with me is this idea of hydrolock. Friends of mine have had engines hydrolock and it's way worse than you are describing. Water puts up a lot of resistance to compression so getting water into cylinders (beyond a slight mist) usually results in damaged valves even when just cranking it over. If the previous owner had that happen, it wouldn't have run well during your test drive even if he had cleaned it out somehow. Either this is a new issue that never happened before or I'm thinking a good detailed pre-purchase inspection would have shown some signs of all this.

 

You said: "I've asked a few other people about this guy, and two out of two people did not give me a good report. He "knew" what he was doing."

If you had connections that know the seller, why not ask about this guy before buying the boat?

 

I'm not trying to come across like a jerk with these points and questions. These are just the first things that come to my mind. Hopefully this thread will help others to know what should be checked prior to buying a used boat. It's a lot of money and can be a big risk.

[keithh2oskier]

@vtmecheng totally agree ?

[JAS]

Are you sure that boat didn't overheat. How was impeller and belt. Hydrolock is such an rare event and seems must have occurred at end of test drive? If guy knew of problem and didn't disclose must have big balls. I tend to assume the best in people and would try to rule out other causes first. I don't think flappers are the problem.

[blakeyates]

@skihacker , yes it "truly" hydro-locked and would barely turn over, making one helluva noise. The only way you can crank it after the hydro-lock is to remove the plugs, push the water out of the pistons, and then crank it. Maybe I didn't make that very clear. Nothing that I have described "is a stretch" and "only the facts." @vtmecheng , yes it could have been coincidental and this event "could have" been the first hydro-lock, however; based on several items, it just looked suspicious. My point was, even if this was the first hydro-lock, I called the seller and explained that we never were able to get the boat off of the trailer. Btw, we also replaced the exhaust flapper valve that was mentioned in a post. All is working well now, engine sounds great, and we'll pull another oil sample soon. We're moving on so we can have some fun. Thanks for everyone's posts.

[oldjeep]

Again - wondering what the oil pressure and compression readings are now? That'll be the true test to see if the engine got screwed up. You said now that the flapper was replaced - was that found to be the cause of the hydro lock? (ie something was wrong with it?)

[vtmecheng]

I'm not saying that the pistons didn't suck water in after purchase, you said that you clearly saw water come out. If water had gotten into the pistons before you tested the boat, there would likely have been some level of engine damage that would have degraded engine performance. Simply pushing the water out of the pistons probably would not have been enough to hide damage caused by the water. Maybe there was something hidden by the previous owner but a good detailed inspection would likely have found some red flags.

 

In the end, we all could get screwed from a private sale like this. I remember my father got screwed once on a used car despite a really good inspection and there wasn't much he could do beyond drive it or buy another car. Some people are just A holes without a moral compass. One thing I didn't say in my previous post was that I am sorry your friend had all of these problems. The first drive of a new-to-you boat should be a fantastic and happy day. I hope problems are in the past and the boat gives him hours of fun.

[Jetsetr]

Since this board goes a bit overboard on being anal retentive on some subjects, lets get the proper terminology for something that’s pretty easy:

 

The water is in the cylinders, not the pistons. The cylinder is the place the piston thingies go up and down in...

 

If an engine is truly hydro-locked it will NOT turn over. You can’t compress a liquid (actually you can but let’s not go there today).

 

There’s a million places water can come from:

Cracked head, blown head gaskets, cracked block, cracked exhaust manifolds, etc etc.

Unless you towed the boat backwards at 30mph your not going to force enough water in thru a missing flapper.

 

Long story short: unless the seller provided a written warranty you’re SOL.

You didn’t do a complete inspection, and your looking for unwarranted compensation.

It ABSOLUTELY SUCKS that someone would do this, but some people just don’t care.

Very sorry for your troubles....

[MISkier]

@Jetsetr, could an engine ingest water via a missing flapper if it overheated and created some sort of atmospheric imbalance at shutoff time? No real water flow out, but plenty of hot air to suck some water back through the open exhaust?

[Jetsetr]

@MISkier I really doubt it...think about how far the water would have to travel, plus the exhaust risers are way above the waterline. Also, the intake and exhaust valves regulate the valve timing in regards to piston position.

Even if the exhaust valves are open there’s no vacuum because the valves are open to the exhaust system and atmosphere. An engine is a air pump. Everything goes one way (unless it runs backwards like a two stroke can).

 

If it was my engine, I would do a compression test, differential cylinder pressure test (leak down test), look REALLY hard at the raw water pump (condition) and exhaust manifolds (pressure test them) for cracks, then move onto cylinder heads (cracks or blown head gaskets, compression and diff cyl pressure test should discover those issues) and finally block for cracks. If there’s that much water getting in it’s a pretty big leak. I would look REALLY hard for signs of severe overheating at some point. Trueing up the manifolds does nothing.

 

If there’s water still getting into all 8 cylinders, it’s a severe leak and should actually be easy to track down.

Water in one or two (next door to each other) would lean towards a blown head gasket or cracked head.

 

If it stopped leaking, compression is decent, has decent oil pressure I would run it for 5-10 hours and dump the oil and change the filter. Water in the oil will show up on the dipstick during this period as well. Oil that has water in it looks milky. Wouldn’t take too much stock in oil analysis at this point.

 

@Jody_Seal knows way more about marine engines and probably seen more marine engine issues than I ever will...

[vtmecheng]

@Jetsetr you are correct, I properly identified that the pistons would suck water in at first but should have used "cylinders" when identifying where the water would end up. Well really it would be the cylinders and pistons since the piston makes up one end of the cylinder but either way I used incorrect terminology.

 

Also on the anal retentive side of things, if the engine can turn over at all will depend on how much water is in there. A really small amount and the engine can turn over but it won't like doing it. More than that and you are correct that it would try to turn over but lock up.

 

I completely agree with your end summary. It sucks. Maybe the seller knew and maybe he didn't. At least we are not talking about someone getting hurt or the boat being a complete loss.

[oldjeep]

@Jetsetr - maybe this isn't as big an issue with ski boats, but with a boat that is missing the flapper(s) it is very easy to fill the cylinders if you come cruising in dump to neutral and shut off the boat - then your wake shoves the water up the pipe since the engine is not producing exhaust to keep it out.

[BraceMaker]

@oldjeep

You're not getting water in 8 pistons simultanously through one exhaust flapper you would get one piston on one side. in all 8 from engines with the carb left off in a junk yard you still only get a couple that had their intakes open.

 

What is the mechanical way to get water past the valve train on both sides of a V8? Other than 2 simultaneously failing head gaskets.

[MillerTime38]

I don’t see why you wouldn’t post the seller, nothing wrong with giving everyone else a heads up on someone they should think about dealing with

[MISkier]

@Jetsetr, the exhaust wouldn't be open the atmosphere with the boat at rest. The exhaust is underwater at that point, not open to the surface and, unless, the exhaust system is leaking inside the boat through its various connections, it's somewhat airtight. I would think a vacuum could be created in that condition. However, I'm not sure, as you mentioned, whether any potential vacuum could overcome the distance and change in elevation to pull water back over the risers into the engine.

[oldjeep]

@BraceMaker - I'm not sure I'm buying that there was water in all 8 cylinders - but who knows. I just know that the scenario that I was describing was an issue on some MB sports boats. There isn't really anyway I can think of to fill all 8 unless there is a crack in the intake manifold between the water jacked and the intake runners

[MISkier]

@oldjeep, in my scenario of overheating and vacuum suction loading the risers from the open exhaust (bad/missing flapper), you would fill all 8 after attempting to crank it over and have the valves open to allow water still held in the risers to enter the engine from the exhaust.

[Jetsetr]

@vtmecheng is it STILL getting water in the cylinders, or has it stopped??? And you are correct, some water will still allow the engine to turn over until the piston comes to TDC...the it stops rotation due to the hydro lock, or it forces the water past the rings into the crankcase. With a Nitro engine the rods just say “screw it I want out” and they depart thru the side of the block, but that’s caused by the huge amount of fuel in liquid form in the cylinders not burning.

 

@oldjeep yeah, I guess I can see that but who would do that?? I suppose there are people that don’t know or don’t care...

[slow]

Worthless poll

[BraceMaker]

@MISkier would still need to have a really rare occurrence (know plenty of guys who have run years and years with straight pipes no flappers/turndowns/baffles) in their boats and have never had even a single side of the engine suck up a trailing wave or vacuum water up the ~3+" muffler which would have to be full of water with no air in the top to allow a suction to occur.

 

And it would have to do this on both banks so that rarity x2

 

And then it would have to not hydrolock on whatever cylinder on whatever bank it was that was fully open when the water arrived such that the engine would complete whatever portion of rotation would be necessary to open all 8 exhaust valves on a 4 stroke engine.

 

I'm not sure what the probability of all that happening at once would be - and the oil test doesn't show water so we can't assume its a chronic issue.

[MISkier]

@BraceMaker, I believe the Nautique only has one through-hull exhaust handling both risers and mufflers. So, if the flapper is gone/damaged, that opening is feeding both sides of the engine.

 

This would be only happening in an extreme overheat condition. Nearly no water in the risers or exhaust and high temperatures causing the imbalance.

[BraceMaker]

@MISkier thanks - I forget about that but I still think the probability is poor for that pathway.