New Max speed for W4

[sunperch]

@T-fromTO I am talking about AWSA membership and rule changes, not IWWF. I don't have a dog in the fight about IWWF. Looks like you are from Canada.......ZBS in AWSA skiing does allow everyone in AWSA to ski at the speed they deem appropriate, except if the skier wants to stay at higher speed at AWSA Regionals and Nationals (or other class L tournaments).

[BraceMaker]

@T-fromTO have you wanted to slow down since you turned 45?

 

AWSA would have let you drop to 32mph under ZBS scoring at any point since 2017.

 

If the answer is no. Well then that's the new iwwf.

 

[T-fromTO]

@BraceMaker At 45 it didn't occur to me to ski at 32, but if someone had put that out as an option I would have taken them up on it. I honestly feel that 45 is the right age for women to drop down a speed. Also, I am Canadian, so I don't really know what ZBS scoring is.

[sheskis7]

Girls and women ski at 34 mph till they reach W5 almost 40 years. Boys and men ski 36 for 22 years till they drop back to 34 in Men 3. Does 40 years seem like a long?

[T-fromTO]

To put this in perspective, how would you guys feel about skiing at 36 mph well into your 50s?

[MISkier]

I have spoken to a W4 skier who is right in the middle of the age range for that division. She skis into 35 off at 34 mph. She is not interested in slowing down to 32 mph.

 

@T-fromTO, ZBS is Zero-Based Scoring. It allows skiers to shorten the line at any speed, without having to increase speed to the divisional max. With ZBS, a skier in our class C tournaments can decide to ski a speed below their max and shorten after successful passes. They will get credit for the buoys they get on each pass. Before this rule, you had to ski to your max division speed before you could shorten the line.

 

It allows skiers who are uncomfortable with the higher speed to still be competitive. They just have to ski shorter rope lengths to get the same score as the faster skiers (e.g., 4@-32 at 34 mph is equivalent to 4@-35 at 32 mph)

[kc]

My apologies upfront. My comments have nothing to do with max speed for W4 slalom. I do however want to comment regarding what @JeffSurdej suggested concerning making US regionals and nationals class C events. Where is our sport going if we have a skier exceed a national record in the US National Championships but it can’t become a national record because the event is class C? That’s crazy (and sad)! I’ll admit that I am a skier that given the choice between a class C and a class L tournament will always choose the class L, but that option is getting smaller every year, but I hope I never see the day when the US National Championships are not conducted as a record event.

[MISkier]

@T-fromTO, here is the ZBS scoring chart. You can start at any speed and rope length (up to 34 mph for women and 36 mph for men). After a successful pass, you can increase speed, shorten the line, or both. You must continue to move to the right or down in the matrix. You cannot move backwards after a successful pass (cannot slow down later or increase rope length later).

 

 

[T-fromTO]

@MISkier I am advocating for a 32 mph max speed for women’s 4 skiers. What you guys do with the rules after that to accommodate someone who wants to ski faster, I don’t really care. Give them extra buoys or whatever, but the standard should be 32 mph.

[sunperch]

@T-fromTO You already have the rule change to 32mph for max speed for 45+ women in IWWF, again, we are talking about changing AWSA rules.

[T-fromTO]

@sunperch Okay, got it!

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@kc, its easy enough to make Nationals a Class E event where National records can be set. Class E is USAWS unique and not recognized by IWWF. For many of the divisions where the skiers don't care about world standings, this makes much more sense.

 

Back to the topic at hand, this new rule affects literally a handful of US skiers who participate in international events and would have to slow down to 32 to not have their seeding/qualifying scores negatively impacted, and then compete at 32 at the international events. That handful of skiers are in a tough spot since they are skiing 32-38 off and are very capable at 34mph. EVERY other US W4 skier can already ski at 32 with ZBS so they are not affected.

[Luv2Ski]

I'm in W4 and I would love to see USAWS vote for the change to 32mph!

[JeffSurdej]

@kc decent point. Maybe class E then. Of course a number of skiers enjoy getting an L score too. But my point was that 75% of the skiers at nationals don’t care about L. And what class a skier skis in is usually skier choice driven until they get to nationals then there we force them to ski under international rules. So what’s happens is we keep getting these iwwf rules changes we don’t want but b/c we run the 5 biggest events of the year in AWSA under international rules we keep finding ourselves stuck in accepting them.

[JeffSurdej]

W4 slalom speed to 32 mph did not pass awsa rules committee. Surveys were not in favor of it.

[Shell]

@Luv2Ski Ditto!

[RAWSki]

That's too bad. It isn't logical but it is the rule and I am sure they feel that ZBS is the cure-all solution.

[T-fromTO]

@JeffSurdej I’m curious as to what sort of survey was taken. Was it just going around and casually asking the ladies at tournaments what they wanted or was it a broader survey that encompassed all the AWSA women’s 4 members?

 

@Luv2Ski and @Shell Thanks for chiming in!

[JeffSurdej]

@T-fromTO survey send to all awsa members. Then we can filter by skiers division and answers. It wasn’t the only factor but we do rely on the surveys to guide how the membership feels.

[eleeski]

The top W4 (and W5) have had a really difficult time with the AWSA and IWWF speed differences. Giving our athletes the same conditions as world athletes is worthy.

 

Chasing top scores by overspeeding in class C tournaments can be fun and should be part of the game. But the high stakes tournaments like Regionals and Nationals should conform to the speeds for World events. We want our best skiers to be able to compete to be the best in the world.

 

Why slalom speed standards are what they are is another issue. Why IWWF changed??? On the personal level, it will be debated for a year or two near a skier's speed transition time but eventually accepted and embraced. Or they will ski Open!

 

Eric

[Shell]

@JeffSurdej @T-fromTO why was it sent to all members? Should have been exclusive to W2-3-4?

Somehow......I never received the survey.

[kc]

@Bruce_Butterfield and @JeffSurdej Yes, I see class E working for division such as Boys/Girls 1-2, and say those for men and women age 70 something plus, that generally wouldn’t be a part of world rankings. @JeffSurdej Jeff, I’ve slept since taking the post-nationals competitors survey, which I’ve completed each year that it’s been sent out, but I don’t recall a question asking competitors their preference for the tournament class. Am I just forgetting that? Is that where you’re getting your numbers for saying that 75% of national competitors don’t care about the class, or world rankings? If the powers to be in USWS/AWSA can effectively lobby IWSF for changes, great, I’d just hate to see our premier events run at what IWSF didn’t consider “world class”. Jeff, thanks for all you do for our sport! Greatly appreciated!

[JeffSurdej]

@Shell all questions are sent to all members but at the beginning you are asked what division you ski. This way we can filter results by who answered. We only took into account those effected by the change. DM me ur email and I can look into why you didn’t not get one. If you feel strongly about 32 mph I suggest contacting your regional reps to voice ur opinion at upcoming meetings. Thank you

[JeffSurdej]

@kc im not advocating a change in classes at nationals nor is it a proposal on the table. I was just more ranting that everytime we get an IWWF rule change we can’t effectively weighs the pros and cons b/c we always have to give into the fact that we run our reg/nat under world rules which means iwwf is controlling our rules in a way at those events. Of course W4 speed did not pass so I guess I’m wrong anyways :). And I pulled 75% out of my rear boot. Just a guess. Just judging that we have about 100 USA athletes compete internationally each year.

[jayski]

@JeffSurdej there is NOTHING stating you need to run your nats or regional's under IWSF rules...it is a choice. You can run it with the same depth of judging to alleviate any concern for a label of a 'lessor' tournament... the ability to set records is for a minimal select few and currently no national's tournament in any country is tailored to those athletes or the 'elite' athletes in any countries. If it was, the allowable #'s of participants would be drastically less.

[thager]

OK then, nothing to see here people. Everyone back to exercising on their phones.....

[kc]

Thanks @JeffSurdej for your reply. I know there have been discussions on this forum in the past from skiers who enjoy seeing where they rank on the US list regardless of whether they’re competing at the higher level events. I feel the same holds true for the world ranking list. Sorry to hear about your injury that kept you from competing at Pan Ams. I hope you’re on the road to recovery!

[BraceMaker]

Also not in W4. Am in M3 so we get bump back.

 

But I think you have two camps. Those who have been in this awhile and at max speeds and participating in the sports and those like me who learned of the sport as an adult and banged my head off trying to get to 36 so i could start to participate in tournaments.

 

I think ZBS has the greatest potential for growing the sport because frankly I don't care how badly I might lose if someone else can go faster I'm just pumped that I can ski 32 and cut rope or if it's May and I haven't touched a waterski since August I could ski 30 or 26 and still cut rope.

 

No part of me finds it unfair that someone could ski 36 and beat me or even hurt themself doing so.

 

I just find it silly that the sport would require a 54 year old to ski 34 in the same way that I find it silly to try to make a 27 year old man ski 36 to ski M1...

[hammerski]

I think 32 would lower the probability of an injury and keep more gals in the sport. Sounds like a great idea!

[bigtex2011]

My lovely bride is in the top 10 of the W4 ranking list and does NOT want the speed to drop.

[Drago]

 

I don't feel qualified to address this particular issue because I'm a 56 year old guy.

[MISkier]

@Drago, I think you can answer the question posed by @T-fromTO on page 2 of this thread, when it was noted that the women ski their respective open speed for roughly 40 years and the men only do so for about 20 years:

 

"how would you guys feel about skiing at 36 mph well into your 50s?"

 

So, you do have something to contribute.

 

By the way, my answer is that I wouldn't mind it. I'm 54 now and do it already anyway in the class C tournaments when I want. If I want to go slower and shorten before 36 mph, I can. ZBS allows that, so the max speed is not required. As @JeffSurdej said, having the IWWF adopt ZBS is the real solution.

[Drago]

@MISkier I skied open into my mid 40s. I knew men under 35 yrs old that wanted to ski 34 back then, and I strongly felt they should have that option. I have no desire to ski 36 ever again, and if i "had to", i would not enter a tournament.

Still, i am a 56 year-old man that shouldn't tell a group of 35 year old women what to do. I think zbs is the best rule ever incorporated into tournament waterskiing, and if awsa is not very actively pushing to get this into international rules they are derelict of duty.

If i were a ski manufacturer, i would take notice that the majority of tournament water skiers are and will be slowing down and i would jump on the opportunity to create a top performing ski for that growing demographic.

[MISkier]

@Drago, good post.

[dbutcher]

I don't have a dog in this fight, and the fight is over for now; but it will be back next year. Having gone through three speed reductions in my ski career (four if you count the M8 debacle), I have this to suggest to those W4 who don't want to slow down. Try it - you might like it. I don't mean try it once and say I don't like it. Try it at least a dozen practice sets. It's fun to get into the next shorter line length even if you did slow down 2mph.

[LeonL]

I just have a problem with AWSA always being wagged by IWWF.

[lpskier]

@JeffSurdej ”90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.” ;-)

[John Brooks]

@JeffSurdej for Regionals and Nationals, can we just let the skier choose when they enter whether they want E or L? We don't need to do anything different regarding judging, just making sure our scorebooks are set up correctly; then those choosing E can ski under AWSA rules and if they like, ZBS. I could envision those who historically have not gone to these events in the past, finding an option to participate.

[JeffSurdej]

@John Brooks Yes and we do that at midwest regionals but ZBS is not allowed in class E either, only C and F

[Jody_Seal]

@JeffSurdej "huh?"

We have been utilizing ZBS skiing for 2 years now at all levels of tournaments.

Utilizing ZBS in r&l events does not reflect on the world rankings list.

I agree regionals and nationals should be class E for all divisions except open and masters divisions.

Most all skiers have had ample opportunity to get on the world rankings list by the time of regionals and nats.

Another policy that is in affect for the very few skiers in the sport.

 

 

[skimom]

The Rules Committee met last weekend and one of the items discussed was W4 slalom speed. Jeff Surdej sent a survey out and the recent survey results were discussed which showed the results as 50/50. The committee recommends leaving AWSA W4 as it stands. This means that for ALL AWSA tournaments W4 max speed continues to be 34mph. All skiers may continue to use the ZBS option below maximum speed if they choose. For Regional and National tournaments the top speed can continue to be 34 and any scores going to IWWF ranking list will be scored as if 32mph (3@35/34 becomes 3@35/32). This will not impact our placements at those events. Skiers who want to compete at IWWF events will have to ski 32 max at those events, and AWSA skiers will not change at this time. This would have been a major change “again” and the rules committee wants to give this more time to evaluate this major change. We felt this impacted less AWSA skiers.

 

Richelle

 

[kc]

@Jody_Seal I respectfully disagree with your statement that most skiers have ample opportunity prior to regionals and nationals to get world ranking scores. I realize there are a lot of opportunities in Florida, but that’s not the case in other states/regions. Here in Indiana we’ve only had one class L tournament, (and it’s slalom only), the last couple of years. There are very few L tournaments in the entire Midwest region. One of the issues is a lack of technical controllers. There are no more than nine active Senior TCs in the entire Midwest region, one of which is rated for slalom only.

[JeffSurdej]

@Jody_Seal sorry what I meant is ZBS in E for skiing above division max is not allowed or at least credit for extra buoys is not awarded.

[jcamp]

The Eastern Region has only one (regionals), maybe 2 (pre-regionals warm up) Ls a year ...

[John Brooks]

@JeffSurdej can we give the choice to skiers, in all divisions, whether they ski E or L? Thanks.

[JeffSurdej]

@John Brooks dont see why not. Officials would have to still have officials ready for L unless a division was 100% E. The only really difference is trick fall

[Jody_Seal]

Unless things have changed AWSA class C& E tricks, the 6 flip rule does not apply.

Yet another old rule that stifles many aspects of the sport.

 

It's pretty simple , stop having a declared speed for any divisions up to 36 mph! Utilize zbs as the standard. We really have nothing to gain with old rules that do not advance or propagate competition.

 

@kc I hear what you are saying dont disagree that there is a mis apportionment of record class events from state to state and region to region. Florida has the worlds lion share for sure. How ever looking at the mens 6 rankings there does not seem to be a problem getting r&l scores in any of the regions. We all travel to tournaments, in my state I could drive 800 miles one way to miami! Last year I skied the bulk of my tournaments in Alabama..

[JeffSurdej]

@Jody_Seal it was actually talked about quite a bit at rules post hangout. Just make men 36 and women 34 and let everyone do what they want and the person with the most buoys win. Simple and everyone can ski what they want when they want. It’s all strategy.

[bsmith]

@Jody_Seal I agree that the 6 flip rule should go away, but if you allow up to 36 mph for slalom in all divisions, then what you would see is the top three finishers in all divisions skiing at 36 mph. ZBS does not perfectly equalize buoy counts for changes in speed. There is a bias towards a higher buoy count when you can run the top speed allowed. This bias is very important at the margin and thus anyone wanting to place high would have to ski 36 mph to have any chance of placing.

 

@JeffSurdej Yes, it's all strategy and every competitor wanting to place as high as possible would quickly learn that they have to ski the max allowed speed to have any chance at all in placing in the top three of their division.

[BraceMaker]

@bsmith that opinion has been voiced in the thread that the rule would essentially push people to speed up to "unsafe" speeds to win.

 

I'm not 100% on that - there is always a differential in skill. in ZBS its not like you can run a pass at 32 mph then jump to 36 mph and run 4 balls for the win. You'd have to be capable of running the preceding pass at 36 mph anyhow. Which means that you have a skier capable of that level of skiing.