Video Review Needed

[Skoot1123]

Ok folks - going to try posting a video here. I’m looking for some feedback to help my skiing. I typically start at 28off 32 mph then go to 34mph at 28off. If I’m feeling well I bump it to 32off at 32mph then up the speed to 34mph. This is when my consistency falls apart. I know I have some things to work on but would offer this up as something to comment on. Thanks Ballers!

 

Videos to follow once I can upload.

[igkya]

tick toc, pitter patter :D

[Skoot1123]

Haha - yes - YouTube is slower than molasses!

[Skoot1123]

Here is the 28off video

 

[Skoot1123]

Here is the 32off at 34mph. Only got around 5(barely). Lots of work to do.

 

[Wish]

Seems there's a boot and or fin adjustment to be made here that may clean up a lot of what's going on.? You're actually doing an awful lot right....a lot.

[Brady]

@Skoot1123 I think a trip to Utah with your family would really help your ball count....miss seeing you brudda!

[liquid d]

You'll run that pass with ease with a better gate...you already have good position behind the boat. Get further up on the boat on the pullout for your gate. Currently , you've drifted so far back that you don't have the speed and have to pull too long to 1 ball. This is why you're turning 1 ball 20 feet down course.

Take a more aggressive pullout/glide, and turn in from a much wider/higher on the boat position. You'll begin the turn sooner and be backsiding 1ball, and won't be playing "catch up " anymore. Good luck!

[Than_Bogan]

I would try this: From the apex right at the ball, first send your hips toward where you want to go next (i.e. the next ball) and then let the ski come around quickly to catch up to you.

 

I think that should help, but honestly in this particular video I see the same thing that @Wish did: Your ski really seems to be set up wrong. It's not finishing turns on either side, even though you appear to be coming in with acceptable speed and body position. Unless you're being super-passive at that particular moment (on both sides), I think the ski should be doing much more for you. Some possible causes of running past buoys include (but are not limited to) boots too far forward, excessive fin area, or excessive wing angle.

[Skoot1123]

Thanks guys. I notice too that my turns take a long time to complete. I had added some tip and depth to my fun along with a steeper wing angle. Now I think I will take some tip out and reduce the wing to ~7 or 8. My boots are as far back as they go (individual boot plates using radar carbitex boots). If I remember right I think they are about 29.5” from the tail. (Bf at least).

 

One thing it seems like I have a lot of trouble with is the rope control coming out of the odd buoys. I’m always pulling in some slack. Some of that could be the over pulling from the previous buoy. If the turns were a bit tighter then ideally I’d be already turned with the ski under the rope and rocketing to the next buoy.

 

The gate has been a little puzzling over the last couple weeks. It is an improvement over where I had been but as @liquid d mentions I need to get wider/higher on the boat before turn in so I have better angle coming into 1 ball. It feels like I have to pull a really long time to get where i am on the pullout already. Perhaps this is also where the fun adjustment will help.

[Than_Bogan]

Busted! :) Adding tip AND depth AND wing angle is quite a recipe for making the ski not finish turns. Personally, I'd probably take out a "lot" of length -- like maybe 0.025" if you're using a normal fin or 0.05" if using a CG fin. I would want a big move to make sure it felt really different and I could tell if it was addressing the problem. If it helps but you need more, then keep going. Or if cures that but causes something else bad, dial it back to in between.

 

I think you're right that your slack will mostly disappear if you figure out how to make yourself and/or your setup finish the turns.

 

You've got a LOT that is right. I will not be surprised if you pass me relatively soon. Hopefully I can help you do so!

[Shakeski]

Agree on all the above (I would play around with ski set up). I made changes to my gate and ski settings this year and it solved similar issues for me just the same. Start with those two areas and I bet you see a big difference! Awesome how video can help us like this!

[Texas6]

@Skoot1123 - You mentioned “having your bindings as far back as they go.” What ski brand and size ski are you riding?

[Skoot1123]

@Texas6 - I was wrong. They are more forward than they are back. The front boot is at 29.5” though. I am riding an HO A3 - 66”. I am 5’9” and 160lbs.

[Skoot1123]

@Brady - we do need another trip out to Utah. Work on both water and snow skiing!

[Wish]

agree with Than on fin change and to a good degree so you can feel it and then dial that back. The ski tip itself is riding high as well. Your riding just the back half of the ski everywhere as evidenced by the water mostly breaking at the toes of your back foot = drag and a reason to have to pull past CL.. That needs to come down for a whole hoist of reasons. So as u play with suggested settings, make sure that aspect is not getting worse. You want that to get better.

[Than_Bogan]

:) You just became the official "cautionary tale" for why you can't combine forward bindings and long and deep and steep wing.

 

[Skoot1123]

@Than_Bogan - always happy to be an “example”. Hopefully soon a proper example ....

 

I’ll do some fin adjustments and see where that takes me.

[Skoot1123]

Ok - I changed my fin settings last night.

From:

Length: 7.125

DFT: .777

Depth: 2.511

Wing: 9.5

To:

Length: 6.819

DFT: .7125

Depth: 2.511

Wing: 7.5

 

Initially I wanted to just move my boots to get more on the front of the ski but my boots are already as far forward as they can go. So I wanted to adjust where my fin is on the ski altogether. Yes - a dramatic change but I’m very curious how this will work. Hoping to ski tonight.

[Wish]

Boots really far forward may make the ski not turn well at all. It does not allow the ski to begin its rotation early enough and finish completely. That actually may be the issue. Forward and back affect ski rotation more then ski tip down or up. Moving the bindings back to get tighter turns seems counter-intuitive but the reality is it will tightn up that turn. The length of tail behind your bindings is in control of rotation or tail slide. Placing boots forward will lengthen the turn. Of course this is if the fin is relatively where it should be.

[Skoot1123]

Interesting @wish. I had always heard/read that the boots needed or should be at 29.5” for the A3. Time to do some rethinking.

[Than_Bogan]

Moving boots forward to get the tip down might just be the #1 myth of ski setup. In addition to the physics that @Wish very eloquently described, there's an element of "over-damped control system," meaning that if you feel the tip grabbing too suddenly, you will automatically rock back and over-compensate.

 

Of course, if your boots are way too far back, then moving forward may get the tip down. But if they are anywhere near to the ideal spot for you, then forward mostly means slower rotation -- which is a good thing if you're rotating too fast and a bad thing if you're rotating too slowly. Your video is very much in the latter category. If someone more expert than me came on and said otherwise, I'd change my tune, but my take would be you shouldn't even think about moving your boots further forward.

 

A related myth is that moving boots back will hold the tail in the water. Blowing out the tail is often the result of rotating too fast, and so moving boots forward is more likely to help!

[Than_Bogan]

Just for the record, I want to point out that I said a large length change with a normal fin was around 0.025. :)

 

That said, 7.125 was an ultra-long fin. I just double-checked A3 factory settings (here) and it's 6.835. So you were 0.29" longer than that, which is completely off the reservation. Frankly, I'm surprised you can run your opening pass being that far from stock settings.

[Skoot1123]

@Than_Bogan - yes I know I had an ultra long fin. It accomplished what I wanted it to - which was to keep the tip of the ski down a little bit. I think what it also did though was make the turns slower and as a result now I need to get back to a fin setting more “natural” for the ski. Giving it a go this afternoon. Next step is moving boots back Just to see how that affects the ski. Learning lots about technique and the technicality of skiing right now. Just science stuff - ya know pretty boring ?

[bsmith]

@Skoot1123 You sound like a good candidate for @SkiJay's Fin Whispering book as seen here https://finwhispering.com/testimonials-book/ In all your measurements you didn't mention LE or leading edge which is the sum of DFT and fin length. A long fin got you a far out LE which adds tip and works toward making the ski easier to turn, but it also added a lot of fin area which slows turning. The FW book emphasizes using the LE number to get tip behavior right and DFT as a way to affect fin area and get smear right.

[Skoot1123]

Well the ski certainly turned faster. It was a little hard to tell exactly how the ski was behaving because of the wind. It did feel like my onside turn was a bit slow. Not 100% sure though as I don’t have video. I am happy that it didn’t feel awkward or way unmanageable, so as far as I’m concerned that is progress. Keep on learning.

[Skoot1123]

@bsmith - good suggestion. I already have the book - it is a fantastic resource. That is the reason why I did increase the tip. It wasn’t until I had video that I was able to see how long it took to turn.

[ALPJr]

Check out Terry Winter’s ‘trainwithterry’ website. Excellent video analysis and coaching.

[Skoot1123]

The set today started strong but ended with frustration. Time to go to the standard settings and work from there. @wish and @Than_Bogan I also moved my boots a quarter inch which puts them at the factory standard. I somewhat wonder if that could be the cause for the water breaking at the back foot in the video above? Anyway I’m very close to the factory settings and ready to work from there. Gotta love skiing in the cooler windy weather here in the Midwest. At least I’m still skiing.

[Wish]

@Skoot1123 you were 1/4" forward of factory settings? If so, moving them back should have made that ski start to rotate soon and more complete...yes? Any video? What was the frustration?

[Skoot1123]

@wish - I just moved the boots back after skiing today. So I don’t know how that will feel yet. Unfortunately I don’t have the opportunity to get much video. However if I can get video of my next set with the boots at the standard position I will. Probably won’t ski for a few days because of schedule.

[Skoot1123]

After moving my bindings a 1/4” back and having the fin close to stock settings I must say it really changed the performance dynamic of the ski. The first thing I noticed was the water breaking much further in front of the foot while just riding behind the boat. During the pullout the glide was quite a bit less effort to get wide/high on the boat. The most noticeable thing however was the preturn and how much earlier my ski started carving around the buoy. The ski turned very well and came back under the rope just like I wanted. No slack in the line when that happens. I will leave the settings as is for now and see how day 2 goes but so far I like them. Oh - the 32 off went down today. Took a crack at -35 into the sun and completely messed up my timing.

 

Most of all though - the icing on the cake is that my wife made a 28 off at 32mph. She almost made it back to back but finished the second pass with 5 buoys. Great day for skiing.

[Wish]

@Skoot1123 GREAT!! Glad the boot move worked. Like I mentioned...you are doing an awful lot right. And...it's always the skis fault :D ...course in this case, it was. ? Would love to see video.

[Skoot1123]

Thanks gents for chiming in. I wasn’t able to coax my 9 year old to take video of me skiing. Ha - who wouldn’t want to take video of their dad skiing?? ? However I do want to get video before the season ends - it will be good to review it during the winter for next season.

 

@wish - it is always the course’s fault!