For those working perfecting stack position

[lkb]

I’ve been skiing for a 18 yrs. At my peak I got through 35 at 34mph pretty often, even though I have always skied in a jackknife position.

I know now I need to learn to get stacked properly.

 

I use a reflex front and a rtp. Today was the first time ever that I have really really tried to get my pelvis over my front foot with a lot of ankle bend. It was a scary feeling but pretty amazing how high I could get on the boat on my gate pullout with little effort. What I really noticed was how much my back heel lifted off the ski. Is this normal or does it just mean my ankle flexibility is not good?

 

[Wish]

I'd say normal. Which is why many pros have gone back to RTPs. Mobility to seamlessly move forward on the ski is a good thing.

[Horton]

@lkb be careful about that heel lift. Often skiers fall back when they try to do that. I coach two feet flat on the ski with even pressure. Remember hips back is LITERALLY more back knee bend then front knee bend (if both are flat on the ski).

 

There are some elite pros that do what you are saying but I think it is a SUPER hard skill for most skiers + I need the strength of both legs at the wakes.

 

As far as the gate pull out - I do lift my heel a bit but that is the only place.

 

 

[elr]

My son and I use the same set-up as you. I ski jackknifed and tail heavy - my son is stacked with his pelvis over the front foot. He has told me that in order to get into the proper position he bends his FRONT ankle enough that his front heal pressures upward on the release (he said it was quite unnerving at first). I tried to get the feeling he was describing (yes it is unnerving) but the results were amazing when I got it. Yes - I was skiing on the balls of both my front and rear foot.

[lkb]

@horton just to be clear I’m not saying that I specifically wanted to have my rear heel off the ski I’m saying that if I bend my front ankle enough to get my pelvis over my front foot the rear heel is coming up as a consequence of that. It’s not actually possible to be stacked without hips over front foot is it?

[Horton]

@lkb

[Skierx]

@Wish remind us about the things you mentioned the other day .what @adamhcaldwell says about vertical separation , standing up out of a chair, or as @AdamCord says keeping the sternum up as high off the water as possible. I agree completely about what you were saying when you tried the vertical separation everything else seems to happened on its own. I experienced the same thing.Observer from the boat said they never seen me look like that. I was literally waiting on the buoys to make my turn. Going through all the GUT articles and applying vertical separation , it all just happens naturally.

[Wish]

@skerrx you pretty much summed it up. How that applies to RTP seems to fallow suite as it give one more freedom to get there. Agree with @Horton that heal lift is a result not a goal and the vertical seperation might and might not make that happen. To me this is a better way for the brain to rap around vs all the other ways I've heard to get stacked. It alleviates trying to pick muscles or body parts below the shoulders to accomplish it. Still keeps one athletically stanced and from ending up like a board. Just my opinion and now yours ?

[MillerTime38]

Personally I know I do lift my back heel but I don’t think about it. A natural athletic position will have you on the balls of your feet, which will slightly lift your back heel, actually both heels. Even my front foot the pressure is coming from the front of my foot.

[Jordan]

Years ago Andy took a video while skiing that focused on his rear heel (he skied with a reflex and a toe loop by then) and his rear heel never lifted.

Not saying it's wrong, pretty sure Nate lifts his rear heal, but it's not necessary in order to get stacked.

[Jordan]

RTP Myths

 

[TheBigHead]

@Jordan to me it looks like there is quite a bit of heel lift and movement there.

[Horton]

@Jordan just because Andy did it doesn't mean the general public should do it.

[ToddF]

@horton I don't understand that comment please expand on it.

If I try and emulate someone who skis correctly and a by-product of skiing better or a better stacked position is a lifted heal, then why would I try and keep it flat if it caused me to get out of position?

I don't have much ankle/hip flexibility and getting flat footed is nearly impossible unless my butt and cog is hanging out past the back end of the ski.

 

[Horton]

@ToddF I discourage skiers from dissecting movements of the best skiers in the world and then trying to apply them without really understanding all the moving parts.

[lkb]

This is from today. My second session of working on getting stacked. This is not good but it’s amazing how hard it was for me to even get it this good. And it’s still what I’d call awful when I go gate to 1, 2 to 3, 4 to 5 :s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS8CY5zBZU

On this pass I was trying to focus on keeping my chin up and back leg straighter than front.

[lkb]

@jercrane I feel your pain. Slalom is the hardest sport I’ve ever tried and now it just got a lot harder.

What’s the strap thing you mentioned?

[Andre]

@jercrane

I know how you feel!

I was running a lot of easy 32's off recently and thought that i was getting better at staying stack.

Wrong.Got video last week and was looking identical as the last 10 years.

Shoulders finish in 16.95 but my butt finish in 17.25 !

 

Edit: @lkb Looking good there!

[Horton]

@lkb for that boat speed and rope length your stack is more than sufficient. It's not perfect and it's not going to get you down 38 off but it's not bad.

 

I would simply tell you to try to have straighter legs.

[Jordan]

@Horton I never said that people should emulate Andy, simply said that Andy didn't lift his heal and he certainly got stacked. I also pointed out that Nate does lift his heal.

 

@TheBigHead Look closer, while his heel does move it looks like it is bouncing as he crosses the wakes. I don't think he intentionally lifts his heel in an effort to get forward.

[Horton]

@Jordan Watch the video at 1/4 speed. Andy's heel clearly comes up at the ball. You can see it best at 2/4/6.

 

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

[lkb]

@horton yeah but the problem is that boat speed and that rope length aren’t the end goal.

Straighter legs I’ll try next time. Is it weird my basic position is so much worse going to my right even though I’m rff? One of my rff ski partners has a great stack going to his right but less good going to his left.

[lkb]

So this is my second set today thinking about just keeping my legs straighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZl4zQ_BVOI

I had some success with this. There may be hope after all!

 

Below is a typical pass at 28 last week before trying to correct the bad posture

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3CXGRGu8pg

 

 

 

 

 

[Jordan]

@Horton at quarter speed it looks like an intentional movement. At regular speed, it looks like a bounce.... a Panda? seriously?

[Zman]

@lkb You have a lot of good stuff going on.

Good skiing .

[gregy]

@lkb huge improvement. I'm working on stack also. Skiing the best I've ever skied. 28s are getting easy and I'm not exerting near as much energy as well. 32 is looking doable. I ran the 30 off mid loop last week for the first time. I could be completely wrong but to me I think your bending your arms too much.

[lkb]

@gregy. Thanks, yes you are probably right about my arms. Today I was only focused on finding some way to get stacked so other things definitely slipped through the cracks. My gate timing was off for most passes and it felt like I was just skiing buoy to buoy where I normally have a lot more time and space coming into the buoy...just a function of trying something totally new to me. All in all I’m really happy with the results of the second set today.

[gregy]

Try rotating your outside shoulder away from the boat a little more, push your hips up and straighten your arms. Should put you in ideal position.

[lkb]

@gregy I’ve heard “hips up” a million times and tried it over and over. It just never worked for me. Straighter legs was what I needed to hear to finally get some results. I guess we all have to try different things until something clicks.

[Horton]

"hips up" is old school coaching that works for some people that generally speaking I think it is the wrong words.

[lkb]

For me it’s not necessarily the wrong words it’s just a matter of how do you do it? It’s kinda like telling a team to “win the game” but not telling them how to do it

[ktm300]

attached.

[mfjaegersr]

Simple is good, especially as a ‘swing thought’ goes; ‘straighten my legs’ or ‘stand tall/proud’ is far easier to digest than ‘turn this shoulder a bit, get my hips up and straighten my arms...’

[TheBigHead]

@lkb great skiing, you move through the load easy and get the ski onto the other edge early, where a lot of people pull long.

 

Out of 1,3,5 if you can get more rotation into the direction of travel, so your chest/belly button is pointing in the direction your ski is pointing, you will start to get an earlier line into 2/4. A different way of saying the same thing @gregy mentioned about getting that outside shoulder away from the boat.

 

 

[aupatking]

My brain hemorrhages when I tell people to ski with their legs straight and they say “Terry Winter....” or “Marcus Brown...”.

Fool, I just watched YOU ski, not Terry or Marcus.

[BobF]

My hips back wake crossing can usually be traced back to my position in, or exiting, the previous turn. A coach once told me "I want you to put pressure on the big toe of your front foot all the way through the turn. Just the big toe". That simple advice surprisingly improved my stance a lot. It's impossible to do that without being somewhat over your front foot. Different things resonate with different people for sure.

[gregy]

If I focus on straight legs I end up with most of my weight on the rear. So what ever works.

[MDB1056]

@lkb nice job. Struggling with the same issues. Hey quick Q what are you riding? S2?

[lkb]

@MDB1056 thanks if I can fix it anybody can

 

66” XTR. I did ride an S2 many years ago. It worked well back then.

[BraceMaker]

Personal testimonial - when I try to "hips up" and fail I end up going from hips up to hips back and knee bent. When I try to ski taller with the back leg straighter and fail I seem to end up both knees bent and still hips in a better general position.

 

When I try to ski hips up my arms get spent, when I try to ski back leg straight my shoulders don't get so fatigued.

 

And finally when I try to ski hips up for some reason I get crazy spray leg???

[gregy]

@BraceMaker I can generally tell how well I skied by what muscles are sore the next day so your experience may not be unusual.

[jhughes]

I feel like I've tried everything on this subject with wildly varying and inconsistent results.

 

One thing that I think a lot of folks miss, mainly because you can't really "tell" exertion from the boat, is over-pulling or pulling at all. Bent arms and/or sore biceps are symptoms. No matter what your "swing thought" is for alignment, if you're playing rodeo with the boat and pulling the shit out of it, there will be no straightening out the alignment. I pull the boat like crazy and this messes with ANY attempt to be aligned. You over-tension the rope skiing an impossible line, separation wake to ball, hosed. Repeat. As such I feel like whatever you're trying to do to not ski ass-back, be sure you're straight armed and not taking more than the boat gives you.

[matthewbrown]

When the line becomes tight your go to movement is to straighten your legs which is fine on its own, but all you are doing is pushing the ski out in front of you as your body mass shifts to the tail of the ski. This creates a static position and produces the shallow angle I believe @TheBigHead was referring to. The idea in this sport is to get to the first wake as quickly as possible while maintaining the correct body position. You are not able to get to the first wake quickly because you are only utilizing the tail of the ski. If you are going to straighten your legs you must also keep your body ahead of the ski during the acceleration phase, otherwise your efforts will come up fruitless.

[lkb]

@matthewbrown got any suggestions for drills that would help prevent pushing on the ski so much with my back foot?

[C5Quest]

Put some tacks on your RTP. That should do the trick. ?

[UWSkier]

I told my buddy I want to get a remote control dog shocker collar to wear on my back leg. Any time he sees me back footing it, he's allowed to zap me.

 

Haven't actually tried this yet. Will post video if we do. :smiley:

[MitchellM]

We just returned from our annual family water ski trip. The big difference for us was a few sessions with Jodi Fisher 6 months ago where he drilled into our heads to keep our knees together so we would remain properly stacked and oriented. This concept really helped my kids. Keeping the knees together really helped us all stay in better position.

[UWSkier]

That knees together thing is something I kindof found on my own about two weeks ago after watching some videos of Trent F skiing and it's been helping a ton. That and vertical separation.

[ScottScott]

I got a splinter in the ball of my rear foot on the dock before skiing a couple weeks ago..... skied about the best I've skied.

[gt2003]

I used to try to convince myself that I ski similar to @twhisper...then I realized I still can't run 15 off... :blush: