Perfect Pass Z-Box Upgrade

[skiboyny]

@alex38 First off I would see if the new software settles your entrance speed. Looks like it's over throttling at the entrance. I really can't remember the versions of software but I do know they have constantly worked to improve how quickly the boat settles. I would install the new software, install z-box but keep it off while you dial in. Do the baselines over and see where you are. I hate to tell you to make any move based on a different set of circumstances. Post your new numbers and we can work thru them.

 

[LeonL]

Again, not deep enough for this thread but with the knowledge displayed here I can't help but ask. I'm a ZO guy, but a friend of mine has recently installed the whole system, 9.2 with ZBox. You say to turn off Zbox while calibrating. How is this done properly? He unplugged the ZBox. When he turned it back on he had a display but no buttons were operational. What did he do wrong?

[keithh2oskier]

@LeonL I went and turned my zbox setting to 0 which I assumed turns it off.

[Windsurfnut]

No, you need to highlight the ABC/123 setting and change it to SG.

I guess perhaps going to 0 may have a similar result, but not sure. Going to SG ensures the system is set back to Stargazer Mode.

 

Had a thought about using the Classic mode RPM adjust feature to check/adjust baselines.

I may run a couple passes and see what it suggests and apply it to baselines.

 

I had a couple abnormally slow times this morning, completely out of character from last weeks good times. No changes were made to PP, only change is water temp is up 5 degees.

 

[LeonL]

@keithh2oskier Thanks, that seems like something I suspected as opposed to disconnecting the wiring. Problem remains now that the head displays, however no buttons function. Suggestions??

[keithh2oskier]

@LeonL By unplugging the zbox from Master module that will also disable your GPS puck. Not sure why the head unit wouldn't be responsive to the buttons.

 

I can use mine when in my garage and the GPS is not picking up a signal.

 

 

[Wish]

Man, just when I think it's time to upgrade, I see this page and my head spins. So let me ask a simple question. ..1997 196 bubble butt with GT-40... are there settings that have been figured out so I can just set it up when I get it or do I have to go though all of this stuff above?? Note.. have not read through all 7 pages of this thread.

[keithh2oskier]

@Wish I think @slmskrs has the same engine in his bubble.

 

Do you both have the acme 422? What about elevation.

 

What numbers are you getting now?

[sgregg]

@wish our times are consistently within .01 to .02 ball to ball (98SN, GT40, ACME 422, Zbox with Version 9). We will occasionally see .03 but that can usually be attributed to something that happened at the other end of the rope.

 

We typically run “Normal” skier weight - skiing at 1000’ above sea level, 30-34mph, 15-35off.

 

We have the 98SN, a 2015 200 (dual puck) and a 2014 TXi (dual puck) in our rotation, no one is complaining about pull differences between the boats.

 

Huge improvement over previous software versions, maybe we got lucky when we did the initial calibration - we did need to reflash our puck due to GPS issues but other than that the system has been super in our case.

 

 

 

[Windsurfnut]

@Wish it seems common that with stock settings you'll get surging at ball 2, and generally the ball 3 setting needs to dropped from 50 down to the mid 30's. Otherwise the rest is just tweaking for perfection that is difficult to repeat anyways based on skier.

 

Personally, being in the tech world I'm just generally interested in the systems operation and making it the best I can, because my skiing isn't great and I want no excuse for it!

 

[slmskrs]

@Wish I have the same boat '97 196 GT40 ACME 422. I'm getting closer but am going to try some different settings this weekend. I've been working with a buddy of mine with a '00 MC Prostar. @keithh2oskier knows who I'm talking about ;) He's gotten his boat out more than me and he's now getting .01, .02 max deviation consistently. Based on his settings and results, and comparing to my current, I'm going to make some changes. Note: There's someone in our club with a '99 196 GT40 (not sure of prop), and his times are good on Normal with default settings. Go figure.....

[DanE]

@Wish I know you have a fairly short setup in your lake. Be prepared to tweak settings a great deal before you're satisfied.

It's doable, just not plug and play.

[kmenard]

Anyone had the gps cut out intermittently after installing?

[alex38]

@skiboyny that sounds like a good approach, where do you stand with manually lowering baselines to cause earlier system engagement to try and reduce over throttling?

Does anyone still do that?

[Wish]

@DanE thats what I was afraid of ?.

[dchristman]

@kmenard you probably need the puck firmware updated.

[skiboyny]

@alex38 I really haven't found it necessary. The new software is decent. In the earlier software the the boat would slam you at 2 hard than run away in the middle, you really had to do something. The newest version is almost doable out of the box as compared. The tweaks help even it out a bit more, but the new version is skiable where the earlier versions really were not. This is based on my experience with 3 stargazer boats. They all behaved the same before and after, others may have had other experiences. Also as others have mentioned the LIght setting is closer to right out of the box if your in that weight category and skill level.

[Windsurfnut]

@kmenard get your gps puck updated if you haven’t. There was an issue with date rollover that messed with it. Plus the new software seems to perform much better.

[kmenard]

@Wish I will call them tomorrow. Just weird that it works fine when plugged in directly

[keithh2oskier]

Here are my times on LIGHT at 34.

0:-0.03

1:0.01

2:-0.01

3:-0.01

4:0.01

5:0.02

6:0.00

 

My settings are

Bl 0: 12

Bl 3: 52

Rest: 35

Kx: +

Zbx: 8

 

Overall pretty happy with where I am at. I think I am done tweaking for now and will focus on playing with the ABC123 settings. The b2 wasn't feeling very good last set like it was gassing me in the wrong spots. I remounted my zbox from last year as we couldn't tell if it was actually doing anything and I think it's working now.

 

My 1 ball is a little fast but it's consistently fast coming in from one direction which has a shorter setup with a bend in the approach. The other direction I was getting 1.76 one balls...

[Windsurfnut]

@keithh2oskier interesting how close you are to the stock settings when using KX+ on your boat where many of us had to drop the ball 3 down considerably on the 300hp+ motors.

 

BTW - in diagnostics there is a screen that has the zbox value and you can see it changing with the change of pitch or acceleration / deceleration of the boat. If I recall at rest mine showed a value of 500. So I tried to mount my zbox with it at resting value. I can see it swing up or down from there when the boat changes. Don't know what the values mean, but it shows that its doing "something".

 

[WDKinley]

Just a heads up for you guys that are fine tuning. Make sure that your linkage setup is tight and throttle return spring is adequate. You can chase timing issues with software for days but if your hardware is the problem you’ll keep beating your head against the wall. I got my setup installed this week. It was too windy to ski but did a bunch of timing through the course. Three event with zbox seemed to time out amazing.

 

[keithh2oskier]

@WDKinley I think when I did timing passes in the past it was pretty close and then when I skied the times went to hell.

[WDKinley]

Good to know. I may get the chance to test tomorrow with a skier

[Windsurfnut]

@WDKinley Yes proper hardware operation is key!

 

Do your timing and testing in SG mode, not with the ZBOX engaged. You'll dial your times in more accurately and then turning on zbox will tighten them up.

 

Also, your numbers with NO SKIER for timing testing are not that great. In NO SKIER mode I get .00 at all balls. Throw a skier behind the boat and you start to see times like you posted. If you are slow at the balls, like your timing indicates, I think it will show up even worse with a skier. Your entry is good, but you slow. I just re-read and you mentioned it was windy. That could have pushed those mid course times slow.

[WDKinley]

yup! unskiable windy. Pulled out the trick ski to play around on because nobody in their right mind was slaloming that day. The times posted above were against the wind. Times posted below were with the wind. It had to have been 20 mph gusting to 35+ right down the lake.

 

 

[slmskrs]

@kmenard @Windsurfnut I've had the boat suddenly start racing while pulling a skier in the course. I saw it again this weekend, and it was because I lost GPS signal (interesting, I never had this issue with my '96 that I was constantly upgrading PP over the years). This system in my '97 is only about two years old (all new everything), but I've had the intermittent GPS signal lose all this time. There is specific puck FW update available (not SG update)? I'm hoping it is just for the puck because I like 9.1 over 9.2 because in 9.1 when I want to see course times, I just press the left side down arrow and I get them. With 9.2 I have to scroll to time and then press it to get the times.

 

Anyway, this sounds like a bug, so they should certainly not charge me for the FW upgrade.

 

BTW, my ski buddy and I are still tweaking SG. I've pretty much have it at no more than +/-.02 max for Normal and Light. Need a little more tweaking for Feather and X. But we both continue to have fast 1 balls (generally 1.75). I've redone autocalc (without wind), I've manually lowered the baseline by 15-20RPM, etc. But I still end up with 1.75's.

 

As I mentioned before, PP says GPS starts sampling and correcting speed about four seconds after engaging. Also, the boat should run 0.03km (0.02mph) outside of the course. I engage as quickly as possible and I'm pretty settled in at 34.4 or 34.5 when the skier pulls out. However, they pull down the speed into the high 33mph range. The boat then adjusts by throttling up right when the skier is gliding, and the boat is now going close to 35mph through the gates and then throttles back, but not before I get a hot one ball.

 

I honestly see no way to correct a hot one ball time due to this logic. If you lower the baseline, it's just going to speed up even more four seconds after engagement. Maybe the better option is to increase baseline slightly over autocal. When it starts sampling GPS four seconds after engaging, it will see it is running a bit fast. If I can time it to when the skier is pulling out, the skier may pull it down to 34.4, and then I'd end up with a good 1 ball time.

 

Regardless, not being able to adjust one ball without screwing up 2 ball time sucks. Most everyone on the spreadsheet has ball 1 settings much higher than default because of slow two ball times, which the ball 1 settings adjust.

 

I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting with the exception of one ball times.

 

I have also checked my linkage multiple times as well as added a supplementary return spring (even though PP says the return spring on a GT40 is quite good). So I don't know what else to do about 1 ball. I'd be tempted to lower it, but I know I'd end up with a dip at two/three ball.

 

Sigh....

[slmskrs]

BTW, PP told me that 9.2 was only cosmetic updates; there was no change in the logic/calculations between 9.1 and 9.2.

[DanE]

For all of you Zbox tweakers I thought I might share something I discovered while using Zbox ( club boat has Zero Off now, 2017 was the last year I used Zbox).

Had every aspect of the hardware in order (power supply, return spring, pucks etc).

Just for the heck of it I set all the background settings to 0 and drove the boat through the course without a skier. I totally expected a constant speed through the pass but that was far from the case.

Can't recall the details now but rpms (and of course speed) was slowly shifting up and down, somewhat in line with the notorious fast entrance and a slow buoy #2 followed by a boat that runs fast from buoy 2 to 4. So there is some inherent programming that is the cause of this behaviour.

Can't remember which version but it was the latest in 2017.

[Windsurfnut]

@slmskrs sounds like you have the older Garmin GPS firmware. There was a problem that arose last year regarding the week rollover for the calendar. It really messed with delayed locking and drop outs. The new firmware fixes that and improves the performance.

If you are techy enough you can build your own upgrade cable (RS-232). I built one and did the update at that time and it corrected our dropouts completely as well as improved lock time and seemed to improve system performance. It’s available on garmin’s site or you can send to PP to update it for you.

[keithh2oskier]

@slmskrs

 

Hey Gordon, are your fast 1 balls only in the direction off the dock or is it like that on both sides?

 

I notice my 1 balls have been consistently fast (.74/.75) on the odd passes where are setup is shorter with the bend entering the pre-gates.

 

I'll see if this weekend I can have someone watch the entrance speed to see if it's doing what yours is.

 

I like the idea of adding some to the baseline to see if that helps. I don't think there is 4 seconds between when my boat beeps the engagement and we go through the 55s. Maybe we need to get it engaged faster.

[Windsurfnut]

On our short entrance side, one with a 90 degree before the 55's, if PP is engaged it will speed up into the 55's then try to bleed off speed, then gas again after ball 1. Its brutal no matter what the settings. I just ensure I come into and around the 90 degree bend without the PP engaged, slow skier speed, then throttle up right after the 90 to engage PP and it settles properly.

[alex38]

@Windsurfnut

I do the same, if it beeps before the turn it’s not right, if I feather it and beep once I’m straight it’s perfect.

 

Do you think that is possible software feedback for PP?

 

I’m not an expert but I’m assuming it’s because when we turn the satellite thinks our water speed is dropping and increases rpms?

[Keith_Menard]

@Windsurfnut If you can find that page, it would be VERY useful! I went to their site, but there are a lot of different updates.

[Windsurfnut]

Puck Software:

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=4065

v4.2 was the update that fixed the GPS week rollover (locking issues) but I found that 4.3/4.4 was even faster and my PP never surged again.

 

Information on Pin out for RS232 Cable:

https://static.garmin.com/pumac/GPS_18x_Tech_Specs.pdf

*note that one of the wires is hidden under the rubber shrink wrap, the green one I think that you need to send data on.

[dchristman]

Note that depending on the firmware version you are upgrading from, you may have to reset the unit to 4800 bps and set to transmit the RMC sentence only. It will likely be set to 19200 after the upgrade.

[Windsurfnut]

@dchristman do you have any knowledge of what puck configurations need to be to work or to be optimized? Does this change based on Master Module?

I don't believe I changed anything, certainly not intentionally and my system works perfect now.

[dchristman]

@Windsurfnut The only GPS configuration needed for PP is as I stated - it should be set to output the RMC sentence only and needs to run at 4800 bps. Aaron at PP told me that newer firmware revisions retain the configuration when upgrading the firmware. Yours probably had one of these newer revisions before your upgrade so you didn't have to make any changes. Every one that I've done, quite a few for ZO and PP, I had to reset the configurations. They must have all had older firmware. Which version will or will not require the configuration to be reset I can't tell you - you will know if you can't communicate with the puck using the update software at the required 4800 bps for PP or 38400 for ZO. Every firmware update I did caused the puck to revert to 19200 bps.

[Windsurfnut]

@dchristman great to know. I imagine mine was a fairly new version, as I had only bought the system 2 years ago.

I had always wondered it if tweaking the baud rate would change system performance. I can put that curiosity to rest now!

[Keith_Menard]

@dchristman can I just send you my puck? The turnaround time for Canada is crazy right now :)

[dchristman]

@Keith_Menard Sure, I'll PM you my address.

[slmskrs]

I talked with PP Wednesday; they said they'd turn it around in one day if I sent mine to them. But I'm concerned about delays, hassles with customs. Don't want to be without a puck more than one weekend (next weekend).

[slmskrs]

On Wednesday PP said they'd turn it around in one day once they get it. I'm more concerned about possible customs delays shipping it to and from Canada.

[Keith_Menard]

@slmskrs That is what I was warned about

[Wac]

I ordered a new GPS unit and got shipped to FL in one day… I’ll send back my old unit to have it updated to keep as a spare for me or my other ski friends. I’m not going to let a small cost get in the way of making our skiing experience fun this summer.

[slmskrs]

I shipped my puck on Tuesday; I have a notice from UPS that it is being stored in a secure location pending instructions; makes no sense since I put in the documentation exactly what PP told me to put. It was supposed to be 1-3 days; if they don't get it tomorrow, I'm going to be really irritated with UPS. It would be nice if they had a US based stocking/repair location since I have to assume their biggest market is the US anyway. I really don't want to order a $270 puck assuming it just needs FW update. Especially since the puck is a standard Garman puck you can get for less than $100 (but needs the appropriate FW). This customs thing sucks when PP is so close....

[slmskrs]

Oh, and UPS was the cheapest 3 day at $65 for a 1# envelope. Sheesh!

[S1Pitts]

That's where you made the mistake. NEVER use UPS for shipments into Canada.

They are slow at the border and extort more money from you to get it cleared.

On the west side of north america it's only FedX for cross border shipments.

[Tom351]

A few years ago (when I did mine) they had instructions that said specifically not to use UPS or FedEX:

 

[slmskrs]

I didn't use ground; PP said FedEx and UPS had 1-3 day. USPS was slower. Don't know why customs fees would be more for ground, but there shouldn't be any since I said 'gps defective, returning, $25'. Still in holding pending instructions and agreement; there's no other info, which really ticks me off.