Jump to content

rimodico
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Baller
They may have changed the ability to find the RPM values in version 9.2. From what I understand they are running out of room so it's possible that's gone. That said the auto cal works real well. I had no problems when I changed to 9.2 it helped settling the boat much quicker, didn't have to be quite as careful to not over throttle at the approach which was a big reason for fast 1 balls. Even though 9.2 got rid of many of the "extremes" it still worked much closer with my original background numbers that were determined on the earlier version.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 312
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

  • Baller

@slmskrs @skiboyny

 

Hi Gordon. To get to baselines I go into the Autocal. Then select the arrow in top right. Then hit the down arrow. It brings me to the baselines for whatever speed I was in. Then hit menu to select the baselines and adjust as needed. I think I have version 9.12

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Asking for help... anyone have great settings for NORMAL @ 34mph. 28-35 off skier, 2000 SN GT-40, w/ zbox, acme 422 prop.... crew weight at 200, ski A1 sometimes +

 

I looked on the shared document and wasn’t sure if there was a baot mine listed there? Looked like all 2002s? That’s a different hull....

 

Curious on baseline RPMs, background settings (ball 1,3,to exit) zbox, abc, KX etc.

 

We have a short set up at one end although it’s not ridiculously short, we commonly seem to have problems there with the boat surging past two to get to three and four.

 

I’ve tried going back to the stock settings I’m working up from there but I’m just not having much luck.

 

Thanks for any help!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@Wac I can with what little experience I have with the plus settings, that they will show some real crazy ball times, and that's with a pretty darn good tuned system. The newest software is really much improved on settling the boat down quickly. Not sure what version you might have. It also helps if the driver "feathers" the throttle up until you hear the beep and not go to far over.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

V9 settles engine speed much faster than 8.x. For short setups, v9 is worth it just for that. I pinged PP this week about baselines, etc. and learned the following FYI:

 

"The GPS will start making adjustments to the speed (temporary baseline) to compensate for errors in the baseline after approximately 4 seconds. So this doesn't actually change the saved baseline it simply adjusts the number temporary to reach approximately 0.3 kph above the baseline (which is) the speed which it holds outside the course."

 

So, the earlier you engage the better. I'm hoping to do some major tweaking this weekend based on the data from this thread. Will report results ('97 196 GT40).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
@Wac I doubt the TSC1 vs TSC2 hulls will differ much in settings. I'm still theorizing a lot on PP settings, but going to make the assumption that once you get baselines in check, that the trends in the settings you are seeing in 2002 GT40 based hulls will be reflected in the 2000 TSC1 hull. At least that's what I'm seeing trending in the sheet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
Hey guys, asking here bc it’s an active thread. I have a 02 196 with the gt40. Stargazer version 8. Planning on upgrading to 9. But wondering if the zbox is worth the upgrade. We generally go out on a friends boat with zero off but I’d like to start getting ours out more. I know it has the letters like zero off but how much more control is the zbox doing over the standard perfect pass? Also saving this thread for all the great setting advice. Thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@Windsurfnut It's my understanding that the 'big' difference to the TSC1 and TSC2 is the slalom/trick gate (although I don't swear that's when it came out-maybe TSC3?). The difference between the two are that the pre-gate hull was designed for slalom with a divot behind the rudder. With the gate, the same divot is still there, but the back, rather than in the fiberglass, changed to the gate plate. But I digress. ;)

 

Zbox will never be the same pull as ZO, but it gets it a lot closer. I occasionally pull a MM (39 off) skier behind my boat, and with Zbox, he says my PP boat is the closest to ZO that he has skied (and I'm still working on tweaks). I think the vast majority of skiers are not really going to notice the difference (more a mind-thing), but if you pull high end skiers that are usually on ZO boats, Zbox is a good addition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@nautique1228 For me, the zbox was a very inexpensive upgrade to a great boat. I'm not a great skier, aspiring, run 22' off consistently at 32mph and can run 28'off inconsistently. I ski behind a ZO equipped Prostar quite often and I was making my passes more consistently, so decide to go for a zbox and try to make my boat more like the Prostar. That, and it included the upgrade from SG to 3 event.

Those 2 changes to my boat (3 event + zbox) changed the feel considerably. Dialing it further in has increased my confidence that I'm running solid times and not getting a timing advantage to a poorly calibrated system. So yes, I recommend the zbox.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
@Windsurfnut Thanks. It was than nasty 'down arrow' that I missed before. Funny but I sure didn't see anything on it in the manual..... The person at PP I've been emailing is concerned with me playing around with baselines to 'fool' PP and he insists that the 1 ball setting affects the 1.77 time into physical ball one, not the 4.45 into physical ball two. I'm not going to challenge him on that (yet). I have to do my own experimentation. I'm going to try to line up a bunch of guinea pig skiers for this weekend; not tell them what I'm doing, and change the settings on the fly all over the place.... :) I am going to drop my ball 1 setting down to zero without changing anything and see what happens to my hot times (per PP). Then I will adjust down my baselines 10 or 20 RPM from current and use the settings in your spreadsheet (looks like we're going to have a head/tail all weekend so I either average, or just drop it a bit). Ought to be an interesting weekend.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
Good luck you will see that dropping 1 ball to zero is the wrong direction. I really don’t think that moving the baselines are necessary. You can wear out a lot of skiers with those moves. Took me a whole summer to get our boats right. Guess it’s good experience I think I’d rather spend my time skiing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
I'm not sure about the new version 9, but when I first put the earlier version in a few yrears ago, l learned you have to think 1 segment ahead to get good times. More importantly it felt more like zero off. @slmskrs your on the right track. I found the pregate set up affected the 1 ball time and the 1 ball setting affected 2 ball, and so on. If I tried to dial down the 1 ball setting , what happened is I still got a hot 1 ball, but the 2 ball was slow. Then the system gassed you get 3 ball.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
@nautique1228 I'm not sure I would say it has “more control” it does change the feel as per numbers. I could distinctly feel where the boat picked me up after the ball and where it let me off at the end of the wake. It like zero off has a more aggressive pull in a shorter space than stargazer. It took me a bit of time to get used to it after skiing stargazer for quite a while previous. Much closer to zero off than stargazer.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
@skiboyny I was going to lower the 1 ball setting just to prove to PP they're wrong. Otherwise I'm looking at something in the 30-30-30 range based on averages I've seen in the spreadsheet. I'd rather be skiing, but this really annoys me... The reason for lowering baselines is based on @Windsurfnut noting that in order to slow his 1.75, etc. down to 1.77, he had to lower the baseline slightly. Since per the group the ball 1 setting affects the 4.45 ball two time, the only way to slow down ball 1 time to 1.77 is to drop baseline. Since I have hot ball one times all the time (1.75, 1.76 (never slow), I don't see another option.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
@simskrs it's a really strange system. I found that when I got 2 ball right oddly enough the 1 ball was also improved. The adjustments are not as linear as you might think. Many times you need to take a few runs just to prove you have made a positive change. It can feel like a moving target. I shoot for 1-2 thousandths discrepancies. Sometimes they can be right on the money other times you could see a ball off by a bit more. A lot of it depends on the skier. The biggest fight for me was dispeling the perfect pass manual. The backgrounds simply do not work the way they say and yet they keep saying it. I've also tried to get them to tell me what it is exactly the background settings do. I just never got an explanation worth repeating. And thru all this, they have improved the system, so go figure. Good luck it may not be as "conclusive" as you think it will.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
@slmskrs Adjusting my baselines wasn't to fool PP, it was just to get an accurate baseline for that speed. I found with AUTOCAL it wasn't consistent, so all I did was average the AUTOCAL results. When I would run AUTOCAL it wouldn't capture the same RPM. So I "helped it". For example for 32.3MPH I would get ranges from 3190 to 3220, so I just tweaked it to 3205. From there, the dialing for each ball was much easier, and far less of a deviation from the PP factory settings, aside from BALL 3 that had to drop a fair amount.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks everybody for the continued conversation on this topic. I went back and used auto Cal to re-calibrate my baselines And according to this process my baselines had been 100 RPMs too low. (Reminder I have a 2000 SN with a GT- 40, version 9.12, Acme 422 propeller.) I also set the crew weight accurate to the one person in the boat for my solo autoclave run.

 

After using auto Cal I started with the background settings for normal: even on all segments @ 25 25 25. After a couple of skiers at 34mph, 22 & 28 off I settled on background settings for normal @35 35 28 by focusing on at adjusting the two ball and four ball times using “Ball one and Ball 3” in the settings respectively. This was a huge success and my buoy times are within .01 on all segments with no surging, or weird behavior, short set up and long set ups. Factory settings for Kx normal, zbox is 8, abc 0

 

Thanks to everybody here who has helped with this approach of focusing on gettting a baseline set to get accurate “ball 0” time and adjusting the backgrounds to get accurate times at ball 2 &4...that has solved the problem of weird times and surging for me.

 

I’m done adjusting now just skiing :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do have one other off-topic question but about Perfectpass, a friend of mine has a boat and right now his display is showing something different than mine.....

 

In the upper right corner of the main screen (with GPS locked), where there is the up arrow in the little square box he has a - in the little square box what does that mean?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
@WAC I'm a bit surprised that your BALL 1 time is now 35 even after raising baselines. Curious, when it was closer to stock (8) how far off were your times. I'm surprised that after baseline adjust it needed but its also consistent with some of the reports on the spreadsheet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

 

 

The top is previous times and settings:

 

b2hgktuanl7e.png

 

The below is my latest attempt:

o0q0k0p6d0lk.png

 

Note: There are multiple skiers represented. With the new settings, I always got slow times (up to 17.00). I haven't been worried with that since I'm working one setting at a time.

 

Tomorrow I'm only going to get my time and the time of one other person.

 

Since I am at 30,25,30, I think I should move to something like 35, 35, 35 (or higher).

 

I will also try recalculating baselines (probably with just me (very early), so I'll have to add crew when my 3rd is in the boat. Hopefully between the two I'll get better one ball times.

 

Also, has anyone gone from Bimini to no Bimini (or visa versa) and changed baselines, etc.?

 

Thanks,

 

Gordon

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
I'd work it one ball at a time. Dial in 2 ball time best you can than move forward. It's going to take a few outings to get it just so, but you don't look to far off. As far as overall time this system seems designed to make overall, dead on in favor of ball time. I don't always get 16.95 but it's never very far off (16.98) at times and well in tolerance. It seems like a worthwhile trade off to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
Running Kx+ fixed all this for my boat. Old carbed 351w. Completely stock stargazer with zbox version 9.2. Runs within .02 on all buoys. On public water. I can’t imagine it performing better.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

I thought I posted this Saturday evening but see I didn't hit "Post". No wonder there were no responses..... :p

 

So, I did autocalc on 34 and 32 early this morning. Only me in the boat; I set crew at 200. Baselines were way slower than previous (I suspect previously I had another person in the boat as well as the bimini up (which I didn't today). Baseline for above was 3460. Today was 3370 after multiple runs (slight head/tail). 3430, 3375, 3380, 3385, 3400, 3370. I left it at 3370 rather than take an average (the wind started coming up by 7:30 so we rushed to ski).

Settings: 35, 35, 30. Started with crew weight (two people) of 400. Later dropped it to 300. All of my 1.77 were warm. So even with the lower baseline, I still run hot into ball (I have a theory for this I'll explain after the graphs).

 

Here's today's relevant data. I skied six 22's to try to keep it consistent, and included Larry, who has just started skiing 34 (15 off). NOTE: Anything above the centerline (actual) is hot (positive number), while anything below the centerline is slow (ex: -.02).

caukjft57ozu.png

 

1g9wikznum8a.png

 

The reason why I think I'm still getting warm ball one times (1.76, 1.75, etc.) is because of what PP told me a week or so ago. They said that GPS adjusts speed about 4 seconds after PP engages, and settles at 0.2mph (.3kph) above actual OUTSIDE THE COURSE. At our site, that's only few seconds before the pull out. I watched the speed closely when I was pulling others. This is what happens:

* Engage, speed is somewhat high but dropping

* 4 seconds, GPS engages, and it settles around 34.3-4.

* Skier pulls out to set up. Slows the boat to less than 34 (as low as 33.7)

* GPS gives more throttle to compensate just as skier is starting glide (no more load, boat picks up speed faster)

* Boat goes through gates hot (34.8-35.0)

* GPS throttles back and by the time the skier reaches 1 ball, it has almost slowed down enough for a slightly warm 1 ball.

 

NOTE: Display doesn't sample GPS quickly, so hard to really tell how slow or fast it is.

 

Is anyone else experiencing this?

 

So, suggestions on settings for next time (probably not for two weeks--out of town and doing a little work on the boat).

 

@skiboyny I'm not concerned about a 16.97 or even an occasional .98. I just want a flat line. :wink:

 

It seems like my two ball is pretty linear with one ball; both are just .01-.02 fast. While I am focusing on one ball and two ball times, it does look like three ball setting might need to be changed (lowered slightly). And I guess rest of course should be increased to bring up 5, 6, gates.

 

Since I was at 35,35,30, maybe like 40, 30, 45?

 

BTW, I don't know if A1 was on, or if it was in SG mode (when I skied). I did have zbox on for Larry (B1).

 

Thanks.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

Installed Zbox and the new software 2 weeks ago. 1994 SN HO carb 285hp Acme 422 prop.

 

Calibrated the speed and it ran perfect times on all buoys right out of the box. A2 setting - 22 off @36mph

 

Didn't check the lower speed ball times, but the course speeds were close enough for me.

 

Love how it settles to the set speed so much faster with the new software, even with some heavy handed drivers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

The way I graphed it in the xls is that I have actuals, and then I enter in the actual time (see below):

958kzcyzd3el.png

 

It then extracts the deviation from actuals in the below. Because the numbers are in relation to actuals, a positive number is hot, and a negative number is slow:

sncodqwr8jzk.png

 

 

If any ball times are actuals, the deviation is zero, and it plots on the actuals line ("0"). If a time is hot, it is above the line. If a time is slow, it's below the line.

 

Hope that helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
I take pictures of the screen after each pass. It's must easier to see the ball times than the + or-, especially when there is glare. That's why I don't enter in the PP deviation numbers, but put in the actual ball times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@slmskrs I was reading the graph opposite as well. Below the line I was interpreting as fast. I have a process to you with the spreadsheet, taking shots of the display with my phone and entering them later. I even have times calculated for skiers at 30, 31 and 32 mph for practice mode instead of the official speeds.

 

I think what you are theorizing is correct, but adjustable. PP will pull you into the course hot, and the pullout should drop the speed. My understanding, is that the Ball 1 adjustment will then account for some of this throttle up, and this is why the stock settings are so low (8). The gassing from pull out through to ball 3 will be more agressive with the high BALL 1 settings.

 

My next theory, would be that skiers light on the line, on the low side of the NORMAL weight range or longer line(less load?) will come in hotter. If I recall, the difference in entrance speed increases slightly with Skier Setting (F/L/N/XL). I'm 170lbs, 22'off normally, 32mph and if I run on Light versus NORMAL then the time on LIGHT are nearly perfect. On Normal I run in hot then the rest of the times are up and down trying to correct.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

A couple of questions to keep you from chasing your tail. When you do the auto calibrate, have you been able to do it on real smooth water with little wind? Do you try lowering your crew weight if the 0 ball is fast? You could calibrate with a bigger crew weight to give you

a bit more adjustment. First of all your 1-2 ball times don't really look that bad, .001,.002 is really a pretty good story, I'd move on to 3 than final and see how close you come. Your background setting for one ball is higher than I've ever seen, that doesn't mean it's wrong but I gets me to wonder about the baselines. At some point you have to stick if baselines were calibrated in dead calm water with no wind I'd call that a wrap. If you have the new software (I can't remember if you do) the autocalibrate is quite good but it will change according to conditions. Your description of what it does at the pre-gate is on the money. With a short setup, you can help by feathering into the set speed and not counting on the system to shut it down. (this takes time) It's a technique that I got in the habit of doing because of the older software. The new software is so much better, but still the throttle control helps. There is a lot about this system that is predictive, to try and make up for the slower correction rate of the system. That said I really think you end up looking at the adjustments as a whole, realizing that there are several combinations to get you there and none are perfect. All and all your already improved on your "out of the box" settings and your getting close. So many variables. Within your frame work you should see deviations at times depending on water and skier but you should also see a on the money run here and there. When you get to that point, that's as good as it gets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
Basic question, and forgive me for such. When doing "Autocal" the instructions say that PP continues to go downward as each speed is calibrated, down to 24. What about tournament speeds down to 15.5?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@Windsurfnut I agree that the pull out slows the boat, but since I engage more than four seconds before the pull out, GPS senses it and compensates which gives a hot speed when the boat goes through the gates. As you said, since PP support keeps saying that 1 ball setting affects my 1.77, it make sense why they have it so low. Seems like GPS and their course logic (ie: Classic PP) work against each other since we know that adjusting 1 ball setting down to their default ends up is a very slow 2 ball, followed by hot 3, etc. to compensate.

 

I've also been helping a buddy of mine dial in his 2000 Prostar 190 and with initial settings of 30,30,35), he got similar 34 results as me (actually better; other than ball 6 and end times being slow, his was consistently for all balls through 5 ball at .01-.02 hot. So very linear (flat) but hot. His data (four skiers) suggests if ball 1 is hot (almost always 1.75, a couple of 1.76), the rest will consistently be hot. We're going to up his ROC up probably 10 (he's getting .97, 98, 70.00).

 

BTW, both my buddy and I have lowered crew weight while pulling to slow down 1 ball, but it has made no difference.

 

My buddy's 32 and 30 mid course times were hot; 1 ball was around the same as 34 (.02 hot), but by 3 ball was as much as .05 hot, so still somewhat of an inverted S. Per your comment, I'm going to suggest he try light for 30 and 32 skiers and see what he gets (and adjust those settings appropriately).

 

So I think we're going in the right direction, but it doesn't seem that there is a way to lower my 1.75 to 1.77 without screwing up the rest of the times. As @skiboyny says, consistent slightly warm 1.75 with the rest flat is a good thing.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@skiboyny I did do autocalc in mirror (with only a slight (1-2mph) head tail puff). I also calibrated with 200 (only me) although I could do it with someone else and bump it to 400. That said, dropping crew weight while pulling hasn't made a difference, and it didn't for my buddy yesterday in his Prostar 190 (unless you really have to drop it--ie: set it with 600# crew weight (3 people) and then drop it to 100 or so. That said, after four seconds, GPS is going to adjust the speed to 34.4 outside the course anyway, so with a long enough set up, crew weight may not matter. How much do folks change crew weight during a set to slow 1 ball by .01 or .02?

 

I agree that .01-.02 hot one ball is a good story, so I will work on 3 and then ROC.

 

I have 9.1 (which I like more than 9.2 because with 9.1 I just hit down arrow to get all times; with 9.2 you have to scroll to speed first). Same fast drop in RPMs.

 

If I can get no more than +/- .02 through the course (normal skiing), I'll be golden. I am getting close; thanks for the input. Also, as @Windsurfnut said, if all of my ball times are good but my end course is a .97 or .98, that will be great!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller
For me the crew weight didn't help, one boat we did with,one without they both turned out the same. If I was to experiment further with it I would do as you said add 600 to do baselines and than take it out. As I said in a past post getting the ball times close, and feathering in the throttle, seemed to produce a better one ball for me. Your pretty close, fine tune over several sessions look for consistent anomalies and slowly improve on them. You will get what you're looking for your not far off now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

How much do you and your ski partners weigh? Try skiing and adjusting on LIGHT. I bet it slows your entrance speed and hot Ball 1 time.

 

My course isn't installed yet this year, so I can't do much testing, but looking back at my data, the few skiers that I have data with, are all 160-165ish, lower speed, longer line and LIGHT give much improved times over NORMAL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

Just finished putting in our course and ran a couple passes. Using LIGHT we came in at 00 and was +/- .01 on the odd ball. I'd chalk that up to skier not system. On light I believe my settings are 8/35/30. I can't complain about those results.

I was so concerned about making NORMAL work last year because I was 175lbs and was in the NORMAL window. But my entrance times were always hot. Turns out switching to LIGHT brought all our times in check. I've also moved from B2 to A2 and finding it gives me a nicer feel behind the boat. Combined with LIGHT, its the best this boat has ever felt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

I went out yesterday and here was what I got on light. My driver didn't write the end times. I skied 3 passes on the stock and then made a slight tweak for the second 3. I think my next goal is drop the rest to 30 and see if that brings down the last few buoys. I have zbox at 0.

 

Ball 0: 8

Ball 3: 50

Rest: 35

0:-0.02

1:0.00

2:0.02

3:0.01

4:-0.04

5:-0.05

6:?

 

 

Ball 0: 12

Ball 3: 52

Rest: 35

0:-0.01

1:0.00

2:0.02

3:0.00

4:-0.05

5:-0.04

6:?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Baller

@keithh2oskier So I just put my boat in and I have an upgrade stick for V9.2 and a Zbox to install.

I looked at my last ride from last year at 34.2 which had to be at 28 or 32 off (likely 32) this would have been september with V9.12 and no Zbox.

Ball 1 18

Ball 3 31

Ball4 to exit 30

0:-.03

1:-.01

2:+.03

3:+.05

4:+.05

5:+.03

16.97

baseline 3400rpm

 

Ill be updating and adding Zbox soon and give you an update

@skiboyny If you have any input on those settings Ill take it as dialing is a tough target for me.

Thank you!

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...