Perfect Pass Z-Box Upgrade

[Edmund]

@GaryJanzig What about changing from a 32mph speed pass to a 34mph pass without stopping?

[GaryJanzig]

@Edmund I think you can, but slow down to disengage before changing it.

[Edmund]

@GaryJanzig Thanks!

[Windsurfnut]

@Edmund Yes you can change speed while engaged, we do it all the time. Both Practice mode and Slalom mode will allow the change

[BraceMaker]

We do this a lot open water where skiers will want to get the next speed even sometimes based on headwind or tailwind. PP will let you arrow up or down while in motion and will get you to the next speed and often you know the skier will want to be faster in the nice water than they wanted when they were exposed to more chop.

 

You still use the manual throttle to dampen that out so what I'd do is exiting the course I would arrow up then gently pull back the throttle as the PP begins to accelerate the boat so that it doesn't jump up and you can ensure you don't get much overrunning.

 

Now as you come into the spin use the manual throttle just like you normally would, back off it disengages accelerate out of the spin and you're into the pass.

 

If someone wants to slow down for some reason do the opposite, arrow down but give it a bit of throttle to let it slow down gradually and not drop below the set speed. The other thing I try to ensure is that once I am engaged that it has enough throttle that you never get "no throttle" blinking while running down the lake. It can be easy if you arrow up with out completing a turn to end up out of slack and no more throttle to be given.

 

If you do that the skier isn't going to get the boat disappearing or running off down the lake.

 

 

 

[Edmund]

Thanks @Windsurfnut and @BraceMaker

The makes the upgrade more appealing.

[keithh2oskier]

I just installed zbox and took some initial rides last weekend. When driving my buddy, 36/-35, I couldn't really hear the engine speeding or slowing up. Buoys times were good but not sure how to tell if the box is working.

 

We did end up raising the zbox setting from 8 up to 15 and didn't notice anything different either.

[GregHind]

@keithh2oskier i would have expected to hear the engine fighting you with a z setting of 15. Try higher

[BCM]

@keithh20skier - I would check for feel compared to ZO rather than sound. I had similar thoughts when I upgraded my '98 CC but then after skiing behind a SN 200 and '18 Malibu realized that the RPM response is not as noticeable in the boat as the newer boats. But, the pull is a bit more aggressive. As a passenger you don't notice it as much as ZO but as a skier I noticed it and felt that it was a stronger response than ZO. I normally ski A3 and behind the 200 A3 felt really soft, but the motor was loud. In generally my 98 is not nearly as loud as the 200 or Malibu and I think that translates into the throttle response you hear (or don't).

[GaryJanzig]

I think I have mine dialed in. The B2 setting feels like a slightly softer pull than SG setting. Is anyone else getting similar results? The pull feels pretty solid on both.

 

[Windsurfnut]

I'm really close now as well. I'll see if I can get a SG/B2 comparison next time out.

[Keith_Menard]

No Zbox (yet),,,my 34mph is dead on...would you mess with this at 32?

 

Ball 1: 1.83

2: 4.71

3: 7.56

4: 10.45

5: 13.27

6: 16: 10

 

17.97

[skiboyny]

When you say 34.2 is dead on are you talking total time or ball times?

[hemlock]

The settings are probably fine at 32 mph.

I believe these are the official tolerances.

 

 

[skiboyny]

The Stargazer system is very good at making total time right out of the box. If the ball times are not within a couple of thousands at each ball, to me it is worth messing with. Even though the overall time is good if the ball times deviate too much the thing won't "feel" right. I've messed with enough of these to know that it can be pretty darn close. It also can be a moving target, depending on conditions and skier. Best advice I can give is If you see a recurring slow or fast ball time it's worth sorting out. You need to do it over many sets watching and looking for consistently off ball times. They can't always be perfect but they can be surprisingly good the majority of the time. A .05 correction at a ball your probably gonna feel. It's up to you in the end what your satisfied with.

[Keith_Menard]

@skiboyny Total time at 34.2 is always within .01

[skiboyny]

@"Keith Menard" Yes it will always be great overall. The key is in the ball times. With the new software the skiing was probably acceptable whereas the earlier versions did some things that were not. You just couldn't get used to skiing the earlier versions. Big hit at 2 ball boat ran away in the middle of the course. They seem to have that sorted out a bit at least on the 2 boats I've tried them on. I've seen peoples skis literally jump out of the water with a sudden speed increase at 2 ball. That said it seems to do a bit better with the backgrounds adjusted for the boat. If you like it as is it's all good.

[GaryJanzig]

I getting full course times from 16:95-17:00 at 34MPH. My split times are coming out at +-.02. I had to adjust it to stop the surge.

[Windsurfnut]

@"Keith Menard" what weight setting are you running 34.2 at? You may want to try a lower weight class for 32.3 mph, with the same ball settings as your current weight/34.2 ball settings. Looks like at 32.3 it was pulling you in a bit fast and then trying to recover. Since you're seeing perfect 34.2 times in current weight setting.

[Keith_Menard]

@Windsurfnut can you expand on that a bit? Do you mean crew weight or F,L,N, etc? I was pulling L for 32.

[Windsurfnut]

Yes I meant F,L,N ,XL

[Kevin89MC]

Great thread, and good timing too. I just picked up a '99 Response with the Monsoon and put in PPSG 9.2 with Zbox. Ran the first few passes without Zbox and the pull was great. Old boat was an '89 ProStar with Classic PP, so the pull was quite a bit different (better) than that. Had a pretty full boat when setting baselines, so I set in a crew weight as directed. Could not tell if I was getting any surging, but didn't think so. Plugged in Zbox for the next outing, and seemed to get some surging early in the course. Will be going out tonight, so I'll do some checking and report back.

Kevin

[Windsurfnut]

Finally got a few really consistent passes in @22'off and I'm repeating this times now in consecutive passes. Given the deviations what would you change to fix up the slow 1/2/3? I'm guessing the slow final time is due to the slow 1-3 times.

 

0: -0.01

1: +0.03

2: +0.04

3: +0.01

4: 0

5: 0

6:+0.03

 

Ball 1 :10

Ball 3 :30

Ball 4 to Exit: 35

[skiboyny]

Raise one ball background setting to 20 see what that does.

[BCM]

@Windsurfnut I was thinking the same as @skiboyny, try bumping up 1 ball to 15 or 20.

[hemlock]

From the user manual, it would appear you need to increase Ball 3 settings.

 

Ball One – This setting primarily controls the Ball One Time. In the event your ball one times are

consistently on the slow side, try moving this value higher by about 5 points each time until your Ball

One Times are nicely balanced. (The factory setting is about 8.)

Ball Three – This setting controls the speed from Ball One to Ball Three. In the event your Ball Three

Times are consistently on the slow side, try adjusting higher or if fast set lower. (The factory setting

ranges from 50-64)

Ball Four to Exit – This setting controls the speed to exit. Typically most boats can start to back off as

less rpm is required in this section. The higher the value, the faster the time in the final section of

course. (The factory value ranges from 23 to 35) Ex: If you see consistently fast times in the final part

of the course, you can lower this value and more rpm will be taken away.

 

Or would doing that bring in surging half way through the course?

[BCM]

@hemlock - I found it best to interpret the user manual loosely, I tried following it to the letter and did not have good luck in my boat or my ski partners boat. I began to believe that 'Ball One' settings were tied to '1' in the time readout (which is actually the time from gate to two). I might be off, a few weeks ago my ski partners boat was getting -0.01/-0.02 at 1 Ball ('0' in the time readout screen) and then +0.03 at 2 Ball (1 in the time readout), then by 3 or 4 we were in the -0.04 range. We tried lowering Ball 1 setting a bit and bumping up Ball 3 with bad results, same times at 1 followed by being real slow at 2 then a big surge. We ended up increase 1 Ball settings and decreasing 3 Ball Settings and it evened things out.

 

 

[DanE]

@Windsurfnut Judging from the times my next move would be to reverse the #s between ball 1 and ball 3 and tweak from there. Guessing you could bump up b4 to xit to 40 in conjunction with above.

[Windsurfnut]

raised my Ball 1 to 15 (Ball 3 remained at 30, Ball 4 to XIT at 35) and got this:

0: -0.01

1: +0.01

2: +0.02

3: +0.04

4: +0.07

5: +0.01

6: +0.01

 

Accidentally though, I had Zbox turned to 20 after running a test with my wife free skiing to see if the zbox was reacting.

After adjusting zbox to 10, I got:

 

0:-0.04

1: 0.01

2:+0.04

3: +0.07

4: +0.04

5: 0

6: -0.02

 

Interesting that the first pass (zbox at 20) that the boat skied awesome and I was early at all bouys, also note I was slow times at all bouys.

Second pass the boat skied like crap, with huge slack at 1 and 2.

 

I'm interpreting this to increase ball 3 to 35? Thoughts?

 

Interesting the zbox number at 20 felt so good.

[skiboyny]

First set of numbers I still would raise the one ball to 20 get the speed at 2 dead on. (which is 1 on your readout). Then raise 3 ball as needed to get 2-3 on your readout to on the money. All this is assuming that you see the same problems over and over. Work from the beginning to the end.

[DanE]

@Windsurfnut Your entrance speed looks way fast - 0.04 sec to first buoy? Heavy tailwind? Need to pay attention to that because that's what kept the time to buoy #2 acceptable.

Raise Ball 1 setting to at least 30 and fix your entrance speed.

Time deviation to Ball 0 should be within +/- 0.01 seconds when tweaking.

And yes, Zbox setting really has an impact on timing also. There is no reason you can't continue to have it on 20 if it feels good. That setting is there so you can make the boat feel more like a true ZO boat and will vary alot between different boats.

[Stefan]

Does anyone know if the z-box actually does anything whilst freeskiing or does it just work when in the course?

[DanE]

@Stefan Zbox also works when freeskiing, mapping of a slalom course is mainly for timing purpose.

[Windsurfnut]

I think I've changed my opinion on the stock perfectpass ball settings. I set them all back to stock, and calibrated my baselines yet again, this time trying multiple calibrations as they would vary by 10-20rpm and average them out. No Skier times in the course were mostly 00, with the odd +/-.01 occasionally showing up. Next my wife on Light and myself on Normal spent an afternoon running repeated passes at one official speed lower then our normal passes to get consistency on SG mode (no zbox). We ended up with:

L: 08/35/40

N:10/35/35

Ball times were all good, again with the odd +/-.01

Added back in zbox at B2 and stock setting of 08. Same results.

Zbox at 10/12 - was really standing me up after the ball, couldn't make my hardest pass at all.

Back to zbox at 8, and feels right again.

Pulled a few other(and better) skiers at 34mph on normal into 32'off and boat times are still solid.

I do think that if we were into shorter line skiing, going beyond 32'off that the ball 3 times would start to appear on the slow side with these settings, coming back to my change in opinion that the stock settings are probably pretty bang on for those hard shortline pulls. That's if your baselines are bang on.

I'm beginning to think that the major deviations from stock ball settings and high zbox values are a result of baseline calibrations.

[GSchmid]

Can someone explain why those 3 little numbers should be different? (Stock settings are like 8, 55, 30; or something like that) I'm asking a sincere question. Don't we want the boat to respond to the pull, instead of adding different amounts of throttle depending on where you are in the course?

[Windsurfnut]

@GSchmid I wish I knew more about the the ball settings as well, and what they mean/do to the system. I understand the concept that more rpm is needed through the middle of the course and can back off near the end..but its just such a random sequence of numbers! I would have thought, that especially with zbox, that the respond to the pull would negate the need to dial in rpm ramping based on ball timing.

 

At one point during my testing and adjusting the system, I was no longer able to ski my harder passes behind any other boat then mine. Settings were grossly different then stock and I was chasing bouy times. I came to the assumption that I had dialed in my boat to behave according to my mistakes/poor skiing. So it would slow me down for my poor/late 3 ball and make up the time on my 5-6 strong pull.

 

I still believe that some of this exists. That the departure from the stock settings is accommodating the longer line skiing, and that if a shorter line better skier was to ski behind my boat we'd start to see some slow ball 3 times again. But for now..it's at least pulling consistent times and my ball count and feel is similar to the ZO boat I also get to ski.

[slmskrs]

Folks, I just found this thread and I want to say THANKS to everyone that has contributed (@windsurfnut @DanE @skiboyny etc.). Great discussion and information. In particular, thanks to @Windsurfnut for putting the google spreadsheet in. I have NOT put in any data because I'm still struggling with my times (been tweaking for over two years since I picked up my '97 project boat and immediate put a complete new SG with xBox system in (SG in my '96, but xBox in the '97 was new for me). Unlike some of you, I have NOT had good support from PP. Twice I've asked for help and when I've send my times (different people at different times), they just say (and I quote)".. the times really don't look that bad", and "your times are within tolerance"..... (I have no idea how they can say the inverted S curve times are not bad when I send them multiple charts like the ones below).

 

Based on what I've read here, this is my understanding now (completely different than what the manual makes you think):

 

* One Ball time (0 on screen) is affected by baselines and crew weight (ex: 1.77). It is NOT adjusted by the Ball 1 Setting.

* Two Ball time (1 on screen) is adjusted by the Ball 1 setting (ex: 4.45)

* Three Ball time (2 on screen) is adjusted by the Ball 3 settings (ex: 7.13)

* The system adjusts at each ball based on previous segment, if previous is hot, then it slows down and visa versa (question: is it adjusting only at each ball, or continuously?)

* In order to dial in all times, you must start from the beginning and going through each ball and setting in order (first dial in baseline/crew for one ball (screen ball 0) (1.77), then two ball (screen ball 1) with the Ball one setting, etc.). If the previous ball time is off, then it tries to correct which impacts the next ball.

* When setting baselines, if you do not put in crew weight when calibrating (the PP manual suggests leaving at 0 with two crew), then the actual crew weight is factored into the baseline RPM. When subsequently pulling a skier, crew weight should be set at zero so you don't add anything on top of the crew weight that is already factored into the baseline. However, because ball one (0 on screen, ex. 1.77) time is based on baselines/crew weight, if your time is hot (ex: 1.74 instead of 1.77 actual), you can't subtract crew weight to drop the RPMs to dial in 1.77 because crew weight was factored into the baseline RPM so your current crew weight setting is zero (and you can't go negative). Therefore, it is better to calculate baselines with crew weight entered. Then enter actual crew weight when pulling a skier and you can now subtract to slow down to dial in one ball (0 on screen) times.

 

Based on all of this (and assuming the above understanding is correct), then I understand why I have always had an inverted S curve, even when substantially changing settings (before understanding the above). My 1.77 has always been hot (baseline issue), and all of my adjustments were for the wrong balls (I thought the ball 1 setting affected my 1.77. not my 4.45), etc., so I have just been making each segment worse.

 

The below images have been my typical inverted S curve pattern prior to understanding the above (Note:

I saw the same pattern with default settings, so ignore the fact that in the below examples my ball 1 in the below settings is even lower than default--I now know it affects my 4.45 time, not 1.77):

 

 

Settings:

 

 

Based on feedback and comparisons to pulls from Zo from a MM skier in our club (into 39), I recently adjusted by xbox and ABC settings, and well as some additional tweaks, and got this:

Settings:

 

 

So, the below is what I think I have to do based on all of the above:

 

* Recalibrate baselines with crew weight in so have +/- adjustment ability (or possibly drop 50-70 RPM off of current baselines)

* Increase 1 ball setting (for two ball time) up to between 20 and 45.

* Drop 3 ball setting (for three ball time) from 60 to around 30 (will depend on results of above)

* Change rest of course to around 30 (will depend on results of above)

 

I'd be very interested to hear opinions on my logic as well as suggested settings based on my previous results.

'97 196 bubble butt, PCM GT40 MPI

9.1 PP SG w/zbox (2019)

Supplemental throttle return springs

 

I'm also thinking of getting a shorter cable and finding a way to mount the server motor directly forward of the throttle linkage so the cable doesn't bend and is shorter for less play.

 

One question on baselines: Back in the old classic days, I used to remember what change in RPM equaled .01 but I can't recall now. Was it 5RPM, or was it 10RPM? It would be very helpful to tweak baseline RPMs to get it very close, and then do slight tweaks to crew weight.

 

BTW, is it me, or does it seem strange that with GPS, PP wants crew weight? I have to assume that requirement was due to the ZO lawsuit. It should be sampling speed and RPM when engaged and adjust accordingly, rather than just stick to a baseline like classic until you go through the gates.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Gordon

 

 

[Windsurfnut]

Hi Gordon,

Great stuff there!

Couple comments from my findings and tweaking. I really liked the idea of actual crew weight so you could dial +/- instead of just +. I think that's useful, and I did use that technique in my calibrating at one point. My ah ha moment came with baseline accuracy. The AUTOCAL is great, but it wasn't producing repeatable results for me. So I started to average AUTOCAL settings to get the average RPM for each speed, and this helped my calibration immensely. Once I did this, I found I was no longer chasing ball settings that were too far off factory settings.

I would recalibrate and try again. But the high Ball3 setting you have is glaring. Half it as you suggest, to like 30/35 and repeat. Of you look at my googledocs sheet, no one is running remotely close to 60 or 80 like you have in your data. Most of us are around 30 +/-.

 

 

[Windsurfnut]

Also on the ZBOX value, I never could get this right. If I increased the value and got it to sound more like a ZO boat and watch the RPMS fluctuate more, it was tougher for me to ski behind, and didn't feel like a ZO boat. If I drop it closer to stock settings it would sound less throttle up, have less fluctuation on rpms and feel more natural and closer to a ZO boat. I think that the Servo system doesn't have the reaction speed or processing speed to behave like a ZO boat, and trying to make it happen screws up the feel

[slmskrs]

@Windsurfnut Going into a meeting so will respond later. But here's what I got from PP (which makes no sense at all based on what we understand): "Start by reducing the BALL 1 setting. That affects the time coming into 'BALL 0'. Don't touch the BALL3 setting at this point at all. You can adjust the baseline a bit if you want, but if you have a long enough run in to the course the system will dial it back in automatically based on the GPS speed."

[slmskrs]

@Windsurfnut On your comment about not getting zbox settings right (make it sound like ZO then it's too harsh). Maybe that's because all the ZO boats (more recent) are huge ocean-going heavy tugs that have to throttle up much more (lots more wetted surface, etc.). Our 196's are like sports cars but with similar power, so don't get pulled down as much as the current MCs and 200s. My boat with my GT40 will pull someone up much faster than these 6 liter behemoths. A theory anyway..

 

On Autocalc, I did it once with just me in the boat, and then again with a 2nd, and the one with the 2nd had slightly lower RPMs than by myself; I'm sure due to the imbalance of one person.

 

But I still don't understand why PP is telling me the Ball 1 setting is to correct my 1.77 from being too hot when most folks on this thread (and my test results) say it doesn't impact my 1.77, but my 4.45.

[skiboyny]

@slmskrs i would suggest to you that you shut Z box off and calibrate stargazer first. Z box will actually tighten the numbers up once stargazer is close. Set baselines with crew weight will give you a bit more adjustment but it probably won’t matter. I usually find that going 2 ball time first is more productive then working on one ball. For your boat the background setting will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30-? The last part of the course is least affected by background so make it last on your to do list. Perfect pass folks are very nice but we’re no help to me. I got my lightbulb moments from @DanE. I can tell you I’ve done 2 boats and they came very nice so it can be done. Good luck hope this helps.

[DanE]

@slmskrs You got the grasp of most of it except the BALL 3 setting. Ball 3 represents buoy #4.

The most important time to watch is to buoy #2 (BALL 1). If you have a slow time at 2 the pass will not feel good. Once you got good times to buouy #2 it's easy to tweak BALL 3 and B4 to EXIT. Keep in mind that trends highly affects the times, for example you have a slow time to buoy #1 (entrance speed) and a good time to #2- that means you are going above set speed when passing #2 and heading for a hot time to #3. If you correct the hot time to 3 with a lower BALL 3 setting you will have a boat that gasses you hard out of #1 and boggs down after #2, need to make corrections from before and at the entrance of the course. Pretty much like skiing?

Based on what you already know you will figure it out.

[slmskrs]

@skiboyny Thanks for the suggestion to turn off zbox when I redo baselines again. I hadn’t thought of that.

 

@DanE, Thanks for the correction on the Ball 3 setting impacting ball 4 (9.80), rather than 3 ball (7.13). I wish I could blame my downhill slide of poor skiing the past few years on a slow 2 ball (4.48) followed by a hot 3 and 4 ball (my S curve), but I’m skiing the same behind ZO as well. I’m sure it has more to do with extra pounds plus age than SG.

 

@DanE Excellent explanation regarding a slow 1 and nominal 2 with fast 3 time. Makes sense that if you have a 1.80 followed by a 4.45, your 3 ball is probably going to be fast.

 

Unfortunately, four weeks ago I tried to run a 32 again and out of one it felt like I tore a shoulder blade muscle. I just grabbed a ride this morning after four weeks off. I ran my opener 22, but could feel it's not healed yet so went right back to the dock. It’s supposed to rain tomorrow, so I think am going to message club members that next Saturday I'll offer free rides to all 34.2 skiers as long as they let me capture data and tweak after every pass. :)

 

So, the plan is the following:

1. Turn off zbox and redo baselines (34, 32 I’ll worry about other speeds later) with crew weight added in. Run several and get average-thanks @windsurfnut

2. Background settings at 25 30 30 (although the focus will be on One ball setting (for my 4.45 time)

3. Adjust crew to dial in 1.77 (no more than +/- .01 with skier in tow) rather than hot

4. Adjust One ball setting to get my 4.45 close to actual instead of slow

5. Then work on 3 ball followed by ROC settings

Wish I didn’t have to wait another week, but hopefully my shoulder blade muscles will be feeling better and I can ski a whole set without injuring it further….

 

Hope everyone is having a great ski weekend!

 

[skiboyny]

@simskrs my suggestion is to calibrate the back ground settings using stargazer. Run smooth easy passes should work out well while you heal. When you get it pretty close than go back to z box. Do 2 ball time first (ball 1 adjust) 4 ball time second (ball 3 adjust) then see where your 1 ball is. It may seem counterintuitive but I’ve had the best luck with that order. It’s important to use a smooth skier. A scrappy run will make it pretty impossible to get it nailed down. Good luck!

[slmskrs]

Thanks @skiboyny I definetely need smooth skiers. There's one skier in our club that regularly runs 35 and he's one of the smoothest and symetrical skiers I've seen (other than last year when I was in the boat watching Nate Smith run a 41 smoother than most of us run a 22... ;) While this member just sold his '17 MC w/ZO and took delivery of a new '21 MC, he's not a ZO snob and is happy to ski behind my boat (he says me wakes are non-existent). I'm gong to enlist him! :)

 

@Windsurfnut or anyone else, where can I find my current baseline RPMs? I looked through the 9.2 manual and spent 20+ minutes going through all the menus I could find, but I can't find it. I won't be able to get averages and tweak baselines until I can find them.

 

Thanks.

 

[Windsurfnut]

Humm I can't recall now, I'm pretty sure it was in the AutoCal section that I got to the baseline menu. Won't be at my boat until the weekend to confirm.

And as others suggested and I forgot to detail, zbox off while dialing in times. Then turn back on once you have good times and it will tighten it up even more. A smooth skiing candidate is great if you can find one. My wife and I just took turns skiing our easiest passes to dial it in on a quiet mid week day.

[Windsurfnut]

I really wish that next gen software could have "suggested settings" once you make a run, sort of like the RPM suggest on classic. Or use zbox data to calibrate...

[slmskrs]

@Windsurfnut I was in autocalc; it showed all the speeds that had been auto-calculated (all of them), but I couldn't find a way to get to any of them (up and down arrows just changed the speed). I'll take a look again this evening.

[slmskrs]

Just double checked. When I'm in Autocalc, you cannot select any of the speeds and display the set baseline RPM. There's got to be something somewhere. If no-one has any ideas, I'll ping PP.