Perfect Pass Z-Box Upgrade

[Deanoski]

@GaryJanzig I have a carbureted 240 SN with 9.2 z box I ran calibration and then all we did was up the KX # cant remember the # it works awesome 16.95-16.97 all day long no surging

 

we ski two boat 1990 sn and a 2016 200 goodeskier and I ski the same buoy count on either boats the biggest difference is driving the widths of the boats are very different so the driver needs to adjust so you drive down the center

[GaryJanzig]

@Deanoski Thank you for the info! Kx is -. n. + or ++. I have mine set to Kx + but that was before the upgrade tp 9.2 and zbox. My boat may be on mothballs this summer due to the pandemic.

[Deanoski]

KX + I think 9.2 has a kx # now cant remember I have sometimers sometimes I remember sometimes I dont

 

just go skiing with the fam that is social distancing it good for the sole

[Windsurfnut]

Thanks for the recent upload of data on the spreadsheet. @GSchmid were all those your settings?

Whoever's settings those are, I found it very interesting that on the same boat as me (2002 SN196 GT40) that you are running KX+, and a high zbox value of 14, and running a much higher ball 1 number then I do. Yet I get consistent times. I have to disclose, though, that most of my timing has been with my wife running 15'off, 30.4,mph inconsistently through the course. I've only been able to run a few skiers through at 32.3mph up though 28'off so my data is limited. Note on the spreadsheet the first listing has now been updated to STOCK PP settings. My listings are lines 14 & 15

[keithh2oskier]

I have had a frustrating experience trying to dial in my SG without zbox.

 

I also was getting a massive surge out of 2 ball that I can hear as a driver and feel as a skier.

 

I notice when I do timing passes, it's all dialed in, but with a skier I get the surge. I am going to try KX + and see if that helps with my 5.0 engine on my 2002 196.

[Deanoski]

@keithh2oskier Get z box your problems will go away

[skiboyny]

@keithh2oskier You need to do the background settings. Z-Box helps tighten up tolerances but if stargazer needs to be right. It's a good place to start. The boat starts timing at the gate, the first time interval is one ball it looks at the time and makes a correction. If you are getting a surge at 2 ball that tells you that 1 ball was slow and the correction shows up at 2 ball. This means the 1 ball setting needs to go up. It is counter intuitive in my mind but that is how it works. The perfect pass people won't explain it this way. So 1 ball adjust affects what you "feel"at 2 and so on. Start with 2 ball and get the time right and go from there.

[BCM]

@keithh2oskier - It sounds to me like you need to adjust the individual segments as @skiboyny is suggesting. Keep in mind that the speed the boat enters one segment is 100% determined by the speed it exits the previous segment. So, if your 1 ball time is off, your 3 ball time will be off and so on. In my experience if 1 is hot, 1-3 will be slow, then after 3 it tries to make up time and surges. With a skier in tow, get your 1 ball times dialed, then 2 & 3, then 4, 5, & 6.

 

I had really good luck emailing with PP to get my boat straightened out.

 

If you recently upgraded I would check the tach settings as well. My boat had an older SG setup when I bought it, it skied great. When I upgraded to 9.2 we had some issues and found I had to change the tach setting. That helped a lot.

[Stefan]

In my Response 2005 with the 340hp Monsoon I have PP Stargazer upgraded to v.9.10 with Z-box and an old GPS puck from 2005. What would I benefit from a new puck and upgrade to v.9.2 please? Haven't done much course skiing with this boat yet, but will do alot coming summer.

[Lieutenant Dan]

I got my Stargazer with ZBox a couple of years ago. As I recall it was version 9.12. I just installed Stargazer on a friend’s boat yesterday and it said version 9.2s.

 

Anyone know the differences / improvements from 9.12 to 9.2s?

[UWSkier]

@Lieutenant Dan only difference in 9.2 is a slightly modified user interface. 9.12 is same programming under the hood.

[keithh2oskier]

Does anyone have a zbox that they are no longer using and willing to sell?

[Windsurfnut]

Enter the settings here when you get a chance. I'm trying to get a database populated:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UsM99RDC-YlpybtqcjCv1-0ArnljSR_lNVITXSYwElA/edit#gid=0

[Bill22]

@Windsurfnut a public PP settings database, that’s a great idea!

[Windsurfnut]

Thanks!

I hope it brings some insight as to why so many of us have to deviate from the stock ball settings to get good ball times. In particular the need to increase ball 1 and decrease ball 3 settings so much to stop the surging. It boggles me why the stock settings are so off.

[Bill22]

@Windsurfnut for us Malibu guys, maybe you could add a column for RPM: standard or inverted.

 

This is assuming you get a bunch more data and some are BUs. I have heard that switch from standard can help BUs act better with all versions of PP.

[Steven_Haines]

My 95 Response was terrible before I went inverted

[Windsurfnut]

@bill22 Tach setting added!

[GaryJanzig]

 

 

[GaryJanzig]

 

[GaryJanzig]

 

[GaryJanzig]

The above are some of my sample times before installing v 9.2 and zbox.

 

 

[DanE]

Maybe I can help bring some clarity regarding the confusing "Ball" timing.

It all stems from the all buoy timing chart, look at @GaryJanzig screenshot above.

The first buoy is refered to as Ball 0 ( with the 1.77 seconds) hence the "Ball 1" time actually refers to buoy # 2.

Fine tune the 1.77 time with crew adjust, higher number will get you a faster entry and vice versa.

Tune the 4.47 time with "Ball 1" setting.

[skiboyny]

@DanE Have you by chance upgraded to newer software? If so did you find it worked any better as far as ball times right out of the box?

[DanE]

Actually our ski club upgraded to a 08 SN with ZO so I no longer use PP.

[Windsurfnut]

@GaryJanzig did you ball time settings change after 9.2/zbox from what you posted?

[GaryJanzig]

They changed big time because I was still on the factory settings. I have some settings I am going to try next time I am out.

[GaryJanzig]

I checked. Each number on the background settings for ball 1, 3 and 4 to exit all go up to 100.

My 9.2 upgrade is off I wanted to test it on factory first. My ball 4 time was almost 0.11 fast. The tach setting on mine was on inverted from the factory, but before the upgrade it was standard. Before the upgrade and the GPS antenna upgrade most of my buoy times were within +- .02 with ball 3 being -.04 to-.06 and ball 4 reading -.03 to -.04 and full course times usually coming out 16.97 and 16.98. I always have Kx set to +. The next time I go out I am going to try Ball 1 45, Ball 3 20, and Ball 4 to exit 35 with the zbox turned off and see what happens. going to change tach back to standard.

 

 

[Windsurfnut]

I'm normally driving for inconsistent skiers, so I rarely have repeatable data. Today I ran a decent 22'off pass at 32mph(practice mode) so I had to calculate times manually for 32mph, but this is what I got:

 

 

Based on what you see, what adjustments would you make?

 

[keithh2oskier]

@Windsurfnut this was from earlier in the thread. Looks like your 1 ball was .03 fast. Based on the below you can start by lowering your ball 1 to maybe 20 and see what happens. From what I gathered its best to work 1 setting at a time...

 

The boat starts timing at the gate, the first time interval is one ball it looks at the time and makes a correction. If you are getting a surge at 2 ball that tells you that 1 ball was slow and the correction shows up at 2 ball. This means the 1 ball setting needs to go up. It is counter intuitive in my mind but that is how it works. The perfect pass people won't explain it this way. So 1 ball adjust affects what you "feel"at 2 and so on. Start with 2 ball and get the time right and go from there.

[Windsurfnut]

My thought was to go to:

Ball 1 20

Ball 2 30

B4 to Exit 35

 

I'll try it in the morning

[GaryJanzig]

@windsurfnut If you have your manual they have a chart showing the record capability slalom times. If you search usawaterski.org you can find the chart that shows the tolerances for all speeds. If you are within the tolerance and don't get surging then you are probably good to go.

 

 

[GaryJanzig]

 

[GaryJanzig]

@Windsurfnut this is the link for the timing charts https://www.usawaterski.org/pages/divisions/3event/AllBuoyTimingChart.htm

[Windsurfnut]

Yep, have all the timing charts. As noted I was skiing at 32mph, not 32.3 so had to manually calculate ball times to check in. You can see my 2-4 ball times, the boat bled off a lot of speed.

[DanE]

@Windsurfnut Play with crew adjust first, assuming you have the baselines dialed.

If you lower the crew adjust you will get Ball 0 closer to actual. Then you can start fine tuning the backgroumd settings.

Most of your deviation on the first half of the buoys comes from entering the course too fast, only way to correct that is lower crew adjust.

[Windsurfnut]

Interesting, that I added 100 lbs of crew weight for my autocal and then brought it back to zero for that run. Also my no skier times are dead on.

[DanE]

Try entering true crew weight when calibrating baselines.

Then you have some leeway to play with

[Windsurfnut]

K gotcha. It was just me in the boat both times, but I was trying to figure in the full tank of fuel at calibration versus less then half a tank during that run.

[GaryJanzig]

@GSchmid your final settings are pretty close to what I have mine set to. I have ball 1 at 45, ball3 at 25, and ball 4 to exit at 31. What engine/ boat do you have? I have a 1994 Ski Nautique with the 240 HP engine(351 FORD). I am thinking your settings may work on my boat. The settings I have corrected the surge, but still trying to get the times dialed in closer, but they are still within RC tolerance.

[KalebP]

I read the manuals for 9.12 and 9.2 because PP told me there were no differences and like mentioned above 9.2 comes out with rpm inverted.

I punched in some data from the spreadsheet and went out for a ski had some PB's then when I drove my mate realized that that course wasn't mapped but man it felt like a good pull so maybe the zbox being at 14 and kx + was what mine was missing all along also set at inverted rpm.

[Bill22]

@KalebP What boat and engine? If you already said that, I missed it.

[KalebP]

@Bill22 01 ski Nautique bubble back gt40 310hp

[Windsurfnut]

@KalebP Great to hear! Happy this data is helping getting boats dialed in.

FWIW, my 02 SN GT40 would throttle pretty aggressively with ZBOX at 12 and KX N.

 

I've now done a system reset and working from stock again to see if I can get more consistent results. I did the latest Garmin update as well and its locking on quickly now and didn't drop satellite connection at all this morning or run away on me as it has on occasion prior to the update. More run time needed on this.

[skiboyny]

I have a z-box with an early version 8. It runs great with modified background settings. I have the newest software coming. I'll post back to see if this can run right "out of the box" I have my doubts but most agree on quicker lock for short setups and that will be worth something to me if nothing else.

[GaryJanzig]

I tried the following numbers 45 ball 1, 25 ball 3 and 35 ball 4 to exit. My course times came out between 16.96-17:00 with most of the split times coming out at +-.01, with one or two of them coming out at +.02 or .03. I entered my numbers on the sheet. I think I have it. I have zbox so I tried it in both SG and B2. The B2 pull felt softer. Sound about right?

 

[skiboyny]

Installed the newest software in to my perfect pass last night. It's an improvement over the early version no doubt. The most noticeable thing is how quickly the boat settles. It had none of the symptoms of the version 8. No brutal spike at 2 no run away in the middle of the course. If this was the version that I first bought I would probably have skied it as is. That said, the ball times were much improved with my custom background numbers. My numbers give me ball times much more consistent, within a thousandth or 2. Factory numbers are skiable but ball times varied more all over the place with inconsistencies of 2-4 thousandths. So in short if you have inexperienced drivers or short setups it's worth the upgrade. In the end all versions are capable of the same results.

[Windsurfnut]

@skuboyny can you upload your numbers into the googledoc if you haven't done yet?

[Edmund]

Will the SG w/Z Box upgrade allow for bumping the speed up or down after exiting the gates without stopping? My ski buddies and I do not drop at the ends, and will run four to eight passes without stopping. [Public lake so you want to grab the good water before a wakeboard boat passes by.] I am thinking about getting SG w/ Z Box for my 98 SN GT-40; currently have PP DigitalPro.

[GaryJanzig]

@Edmund you can make the turn back into the course without stopping, but you will want to slow the boat down 4 mph to disengage the system, then throttle back up after you have finished the turnaround.