Thinking about going to the BigDawg in California?

[Horton]

I just looked and there are already a 23 entries listed. If you want in you should enter.

 

https://www.caproam.com/bigdawg

[Horton]

I am already counting the skiers I think I can beat to get into the bracket of 24 :-)

[Adam Caldwell]

@Adamcord is 35 this year.

[bishop8950]

About 15 spots left in CA. It will fill up. Is @adamcord birthday before July 13? If so, bring the Denali and join us.

 

@adamhcaldwell what are you doing that weekend??

[Adam Caldwell]

We (Trophy Lakes) signed up to host the SC state championships that weekend. So will probably be at Trophy supporting that event.

 

Plus, I’m not sure I’m eligible. Not about to commit, register and buy a flight again for someone to make a rule change the night before.

[bishop8950]

@adamhcaldwell unfair. There were no last minute rule changes that prevented you from coming. And you are elidgible. I hope you have a good event at Trophy.

[Adam Caldwell]

@bishop8950 Theres an old thread on this already somewhere. Not trying to make an unfair statement.

 

Sure, it may not have been a rule change, but, definitely a stretch to the interpretation of the rules from what I could understand - for reasons I will certainly never understand.

 

Last fall I was told that making a cut to the second round at Malibu open disqualifies me. That certainly doesn't count as 'top 10 in a professional event'. Nor does Hortons amature handicap slalom tournament in 2014 that he put prize money out for. Somehow, 'they' came up with definition of 'professional skier' as anyone who took home money from ANY tournament.

 

Is there a 'rules' list that exist other then whats on the website shown below?

 

 

 

 

 

[bishop8950]

@adamhcaldwell that prior situation was unfortunate and as you say covered in a previous thread in detail.

 

Going forward you can see a copy of the rules on the www.skibigdawg.com website. The short answer is over 35, no OM cash prize top 10 last 3 yrs. I believe you finished 11 at Malibu. BD rules don’t contemplate cuts.

 

After your specific situation, We also added A) a definition for “cash prize” and B ) a petition process.

 

Current rule:

 

Who is Eligible NBDWT / Entry Information:

 

Skiers 35 years and older, who have not placed in the top 10 of an Open Division cash prize event in the past three years or any skier age 50 or above. All skiers meeting the eligibility criteria above are extended an invitation and must submit to the tournament registrar an (a) entry form, (b) proof of membership as required per the governing body of the host country and © advertised entry fee. Maximum number of skiers is specific to each qualifier. Please see each event page for more details.

 

“Open Division cash prize event” is defined as any event in which the Big Dawg competitor competes within the Open Division of an event offering any dollar amount for a cash prize at any level regardless of sanction guidelines.

 

Petitions for qualification of potential Big Dawg competitor can be presented to the committee prior to the first Big Dawg qualifier event.

 

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@bishop8950 the way that definition reads is plain nuts. That means if someone enters Open Division at a class F tournament that pays back half the entry fees, and there are 2 Open skiers who each take home $25, they are now ineligible for the Big Dawg?

 

Or if I go to a BOS cash prize and enter as M5 and win $1,000, I'm fine, but if I enter OM and win $0.50 (as Horton would love to do), I'm now ineligible for a Big Dawg?

 

Was this really the intention?

[Horton]

@bishop8950 yeah Kevin why you hate Adam so much?

[bishop8950]

@horton shut up. We are nearly no longer friends. Now I have to state I have no problem with Caldwell and respect him. Which I expect he already knows.

 

@Bruce_Butterfield the intention is to maintain a separation between BD and OM. You have to choose one or the other. The BD and OM communities both want this. So we anchor the rule around placement and cash.

 

It’s not easy to pick a set of rules that is clear, straight forward to manage and effective. We have done our best. Your understanding of the rules is correct. However, if Bruce places 10th in OM BOSCP and gets $0.50 from Horton, and then petition for an exception I expect it will be granted.

[AdamCord]

 

[Horton]

@bishop8950 love you man

[Adam Caldwell]

All good @bishop8950!

 

I think the original format of BD was a great concept. Integrating other old, retired, higher level skiers is also very cool and fun. But I can also see the issues created that undermine the original intent of the league.

 

I don’t see why handicaps are not included in this style of event. Would keep it a lot more interesting, AND give more variability to what the podium looks like every time.

 

Personally, I’m not into competing with skiers at a different level unless there is a handicap of some kind to level the playing field. I assume most people would feel the same.

 

A known handicap makes me just want to go out even harder knowing I have to run 3buoys beyond my PB to even come close to “winning”. Or, if the handicap is big enough and I cared more about standing on a podium then just having fun skiing with other awesome people, I’ll just stay home and the BD skiers can all have fun.

 

Competition should be fun for everyone it is being catered to. No doubt, I’m sure some of the fun disappeared for a lot of skiers when Mapple and Jeff R showed up on the scene and probably created a lot of conflict. Talking to @AdamCord , Mapple didn’t miss 41 EVER. At 36 or 34. If I was a BD skier working on 38/39 and knew I had to go contend with Mapple to see a podium - I’m probably staying home.

 

Start throwing some handicap scoring into the mix and then it becomes a fun competition for all, and at the same time gives a more opportunity to win for the “average die hard skier” who just love competing and sharing the love of the sport.

 

The competition is the carrrot on the end of the stick. Not the scores, not the cash, not the ego, not the fame.

[bishop8950]

@adamhcaldwell good stuff. If I personally were starting over from scratch I would look to level the playing field likely through ability basis. Take all the guys with averages 3@35 - 3@38 in one group, 3@38 - 3@39 and so on. That would be a broad competition.

 

Handicap would work as well but they are at least tricky to execute. A solvable problem though.

[ski6jones]

Wasn't Bid Dawg originally supposed to be a competition among the best 34 mph skiers, period (within eligibility constraints)? Why should the format be tailored to accommodate lesser abilities unless there aren't enough competitors to run it as "best of the best"?

[Chef23]

I will never be good enough to compete in a BD but the handicap idea is interesting and could easily spread downstream to other tournaments. BD could take the lead in developing something that would be fun at all levels. What about coming up with a formula and publish it as a parallel tracking mechanism for this season? That would give some data and see how the handicap forumla worked. I would guess other events would take that and try to apply it at other levels and it would be good for tournament skiing at all levels.

[AdamCord]

@Horton has done this with the BOS tournaments and from what I have heard they've been very successful. What is needed is for other people to take his format and put on more events. I'm not sure if changing BD is the answer.

 

@bishop8950 what was the deal with Glenn Campbell a few years ago? I believe he showed up at a BD event and was denied entry (after flying over from the UK)?

[Than_Bogan]

I love handicapped slalom, and I have published, advocated, and occasionally taken credit for @MikeT's simple-but-elegant system for doing that.

 

However, I'm not excited by the idea of bringing that to Big Dawg, because I really enjoy Big Dawg from a spectator's standpoint, and I just wanna see the best old guys getting after it! I really don't mind if one guy wins all the time, as long as he's actually the best.

[bishop8950]

Thanks @AdamCord , I love going back over old news. Both Caldwell and Campbell signed up for events they were not eligible for. Both cases were close. And, in both cases the skiers were unfortunately notified late. For Campbell, I believe the LOC thought he was going to ski with the officials as OM not the BD. It seemed like Glenn was notified 1-2 was before the event, but I don’t remember. It was not the day before like Caldwell.

 

Today, the entry list is better monitored to avoid any further such issues.

[Horton]

@bishop8950 why do you hate Glenn Campbell so much?

[bishop8950]

@horton. Last straw. I just told Greg you were happy to donate 10 new ML ropes Badal Enterprises in exchange for his TC services at BOSCP. I also told him you volunteered to cover all waste Managment activities for both the BD and CAProAm.

[AdamCord]

Sorry @bishop8950 if I do decide to compete this summer I just don’t want to be surprised. I turn 35 2 weeks before the Cali stop so sounds like I should be eligible.

[Rich]

Greg Davis should have a say on the intent of BD as he was the originator of the BD along with Dave Miller Ohio. Before the BD there was a Swami Slalom after Nationals that had all the best 34 skiers against each other. I think Chuck Forrest won that.

 

[bishop8950]

@AdamCord no worries. It would be interesting if you come and mix it up in the BD. Sign up to reserve your spot and we can quickly confirm elidgibilty. I bet you are good to go.

[Chef23]

I understand that Horton has done the handicap thing and I have skied in the tournament that @MikeT and @Than_Bogan run handicapped and it is great. I think if a major event like the BD events had a handicap score even if it wasn't the primary selection for the winner it might spur more interest and potentially set a standard formula that people would use.

 

I just heard @Chris Rossi talk about ability based events handicaps are a way to make everyone competitive.

[liquid d]

The Super Swami was different. It was a one day tourney after the Nationals and was open to all. You competed against the score that won your division in the Nationals and recieved a score based upon the percentage you achieved in the Swami round versus that winning score. It was a woman that won it....i think it was one of the girls from South Florida/West Palm? Didi Mahler/or Trish, or Lori?

[Horton]

@bishop8950 I always wondered it you were actually funny. Now I know.

[matthewbrown]

@bishop8950 no one is safe from the Badal audible.

[bishop8950]

@matthewbrown Badaudable !

[mshaw200]

@AdamCord jumping in kind of late here but regarding Glenn Campbell, he was notified before the event and before he showed up on site that he wasn't eligible. The reason he wasn't notified sooner was because he signed up to compete in OM, not in MM or M3. No one realized that he wanted to compete in the Big Dawg as there was a record tourney on one of the other lakes at WPB. By him entering in OM it gave the impression to everyone that he was planning to ski in the R portion of the weekend.

 

I may be wrong but I believe that we (the Big Dawg committee members) did not learn of Adam Caldwell's interest in skiing the Little Mountain Big Dawg in August 2017 until the day before the event.

 

As soon as we did, we did our due diligence and learned about the BOS event. We didn't like the situation but because Adam Caldwell had competed in the event in OM and placed in the top 10 (where there was a cash prize regardless of how little the amount) then we felt we had no other choice. We immediately reached out to him to explain the situation.

 

Any that thinks it was an easy decision for us is absolutely wrong. Big Dawg doesn't have the numbers it once does, so to have to tell someone that wants to compete in it that they can't is a hard thing to do.