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Presenting - WhisperFin #1


SkiJay
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Why LE Matters

@rfa
Anything that moves the fin’s center of pressure matters, this includes both LE and DFT. In the book Fin Whispering, I went to great lengths to isolate individual ski behaviors so each behavior can be tuned without affecting the others. In this case, DFT is very important as LE-neutral DFT moves are essential when isolating smear changes.
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With the WhisperFin, my focus is on making ski tuning as easy as possible by boiling fin adjustments down to two simple moves—back and forth, and in and out of the ski (no LE-neutral DFT moves here). The downside of this simplicity is that both of these fin movements affect multiple behaviors.

When I made the statement that "DFT isn't a measurement I worry much about. I'm more focused on how DFT affects the fin's leading edge location (LE) ...," it was in the context of WhisperFin tuning. And what I was implying was that of the two behaviors affected by a simple forward or backward fin move, I’m more concerned with how the move affects LE because the goal of these moves is to adjust yawed tip engagement to be as deep as possible without leading to tip-grab.

5r6f0nxhfawx.png

Let’s consider a forward fin move for illustration purposes. Moving the fin forward increases both LE and DFT. As LE moves forward, we’ll get more yawed tip engagement from our habitual inputs, which leads to more smear, tighter turns and more cross-course angle. As DFT moves forward, the fin loses some leverage (shorter moment arm between the bindings and fin) which also leads to more smear. It’s a happy coincidence that DFT’s affect on smear is complementary to the goal of getting more tip engagement with a longer LE.

Reducing fin area by moving the fin up into the ski also increases smear. In fact, reducing FD by .010” increases smear six times more than an equal .010 DFT increase (an updated topic in FinWhispering—2nd Edition). Accordingly, I consider fin area changes to be primarily aimed at adjusting smear, and back and forth fin movements to be primarily aimed at adjusting yawing tip engagement. This further explains the context surrounding my statement that "DFT isn't a measurement I worry much about. I'm more focused on how DFT affects the fin's leading edge location (LE) ...."

Finally, to help illustrate why LE impacts yawed tip engagement, let’s use a little exaggeration. The fin on a ski is like the feathers on an arrow. With the feathers at the very back of the arrow, it will be very stable in flight. The further forward you move the feathers up the shaft, the less stable the arrow will be (meaning the easier it will be to deflect the arrow from its path). If the feathers were to move forward past the halfway point, the front of the arrow would swing around and become the back.

Similarly, with the fin at the back of the ski, the ski is very stable and just wants to go straight down the lake. The skier has to force the ski to lay over on its side to turn or cut cross the course. The further forward the fin is on the ski, the less stable it is and the easier it is for the skier to deflect it from its natural path (force it to turn and cut). If the leading edge of the fin goes far enough forward, eventually the front of the ski will spin around and become the back of the ski, tip-grab in the extreme.

If LE is too far forward, the skier’s habitual inputs will yaw too much tip into the water and the tip will bite. If it’s too far back, it’s becomes too hard to keep enough tip in the water to complete turns well or to generate enough cross-course angle.

In short, the fin’s leading edge location (LE) matters a lot.
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@SkiJay , Wow! Didn't mean to ask for such detailed explanation, but thank you very much! (Apologies for not having read your book...)

Let's see if my "translation" gets it right.

LE has foremost impact on yaw/tip engagement...and some smear...

DFT impacts mostly "smear"...

FD impacts smear, but significantly more than DFT...

Therefore, your comment in the other tread referred to isolating tuning parameters to address what the skier feels is, or is not, happening.

I assumed you and @AdamCord agree on these fundamentals and that's why I asked if the different shapes/fluid dynamic characteristics of the WF and CG fins was what accounted for the two different thoughts on those treads. In other words, my "take" is that the RELATIVE impact of each parameter in these two fin designs is what led to those seemingly different pieces of advice...not a difference of opinion on the fundamentals of the impact of each parameter on ski behavior.

Again, thank you very much!

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My friend had a second set yesterday, run the best -32s, didn’t run a full -35 but he said that the ski felt very easy and he has just started shortening to -32 and -35.

First to second set, we only moved the binding 1/8” forward. I’ll watch him skiing tomorrow from the boat. He wants to buy a second WF now and I’m about to buy one too.

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@SkiJay Great discussion on LE. I'm trying the Vapor Lithium as we discussed above. I'm very interested in your test and comparison of the PB vs Li. Science and tests are fun.

( BTW, my next step is to install the WF on the Lithium, but fin block is the narrow one, so I'm hunting another old fin block to make it work. Looking forward to it.)

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My friend’s last set was in very strong head-tail wind, run all his -32 easily and run deep at -35. He is so happy he doesn’t want me to change anything to the current setup.

He is off to the races, going to Bordeaux this weekend.

I need to buy a WF now!

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Jay, will the fin help a lot in off side turns. I have a very strong on-side, but much poorer off side. If I could make them more similar I could jump up 2 line lengths. I seem to have more issues since switching to Zero off boat vs Perfect Pass, I am about 205 and have a strong pull behind the boat. I think ZO hits me different and pulls me out. I need help on the off side, not getting pulled out of position and leave me in power position to accelerate to get early for powerful on side coming if not late. I always seem to be late coming out of offside, so need the ski to come around a bit faster to get in position. What are your thoughts? I am skiing a Connelly GT at 34 mph and really like the ski for my style. I would like to get back to making 28's easy and 32's occasionally. If even turns on both sides, 35 would definitely be possible and would be happy to get to anywhere close to old levels.
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I just got mine 2 days ago but I will not try it before a week so I will post my experience of course.

I ski with a Mapple T2 67' 32mph 15off and sometime 34mph and I am slaloming seriously since 2014,did not ski much last year (dislocated shoulder 2x mid june)

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I found it!

First page of finwhispering.com

Looks like Nate (like him or not ) tried the whisper fin and hasn’t missed a 41 on it yet. Several 3 at 43. I know it’s practice but still incredible skiing.

I love my fin! Gives me so much confidence and consistency.

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@SkiJay can i remove this very end of the fin or is it needed cos tail of my xt dont alow me to move the fin further back Edit... Oups found out that ppl allready cut this lille part of!!!

 

Edit nr 2. Is it the same fin för HO and Goode ? Cos when when i try the HO WF on my Goode xt 17 i cant get it to the lowest marking

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Okay I went skiing this morning and I did one set of 6 passes with the fin and the second set I did not notice that the driver went to 32mph, the pass was feeling like it was 30mph....One thing I noticed is the tip of the ski does not rise at the end of the turn and it gave me confidence. So I feel good and looking forward to ski more and adjust to it. And yes I am happy with the fin
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@Skijay Any info on the WF on the 2020 Vapor? I would think you were able to get some early testing done before the release today. I was curious with the new design and word that much more of the ski is in the water are you still seeing “boots forward” numbers ?
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I've hit this thread a couple times and gone through the full arc of emotions over my admittedly self indulgent impulse buy of the Whisper Fin. Since it has popped up I figured I'd drop in my latest thoughts after essentially a full 3+ months of usage and sticking with it.

 

I'm not even remotely a short line tournament skier. Maybe my experience can be some help for those of you wondering if this fin can help someone who isn't a hardcore short line skier. For reference last season I could barely make a clean pass at 15off/32mph.

 

I struggled at first with the Whisper fin but most of my issues were really centered around some very very bad technique problems. After working a bunch with Jay via email with some video he basically gave me two paths to choose.

 

Option a) he could give me a fin setup that would allow me to keep skiing with my poor technique and maybe get a little further down the rope or Option b) he could give me a setup that would allow me to work on my technique and achieve more once I stopped doing some terrible things. I would "achieve" less in the short term relative to speed increases and/or line length.

 

I decided to take my medicine and went with the option b setup and got to work. Jay actually suggested along with option b I stay out of the course for the rest of the season and dial in technique. I only made it like 2 weeks staying out of the course. It's just too fun. Sorry Jay!

 

Fast forward to the mid August and my first tournament since college (23 years) and I got a PB at 3 buoys at 32 off/32mph. I had never in my life even attempted 32off for what its worth ... not once before this day. I was still struggling to get to 34mph but felt solid on the ski and was starting to get to where things were predictable when I did the right things. The mystery was starting to wash away.

 

Labor day weekend I finally got my full pass at 22 off and 34mph. I've been trying to come off the dock since then at 34mph and the ski just seems to behave more predictably now that I'm getting used to it. When I dropped back to 32mph things just felt so slow and "draggy" so I took that as a good sign.

 

Last Sunday with water temps dipping below 70 degrees and everyone talking about the cold water killing their skiing I managed to pull off my first full pass at 28off/34mph! Now in all fairness I only pulled it off once and was only able to get 5 balls on my next two attempts but I did it and it didn't even feel that hard. What I could feel was that I was doing the right things. I was not fighting the ski at all. The ski was predictable and when I didn't do something quite right I knew it right away. For me this is a very different experience to have things predictable enough that I can be self aware of my laundry list of technique flaws.

 

Long story short ... I am skiing better than I ever have and I attribute a lot of that to the Whisper Fin.

 

Now if only I could find a way to extend summer in New England another couple of months.

 

If it matters to anyone ...

Connelly GT 66"

Reflex Supershell 3.0 with RTP

Bf = 28.938

Wg = 7°

FD = 2.530

FL = 5.760

DFT = 1.920

LE = 7.680

 

 

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@jercrane To be honest, that doesn't sound to me like the fin was more than about 1% of the explanation, unless you count indirectly because it caused you to accept good coaching!

 

But no matter the cause, HUGE congratulations to you on a true breakout season!! -28 is a very important milestone, so now you'll at least feel like a "real" short-line skier!

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@Than_Bogan totally fair and quite possible but I got a ton of coaching last year including two trips to FL schools. I really struggled to execute the guidance provided by previous coaching until I got on the fin this year. You are 100% right in that the fin alone was not the biggest contributing factor. Yes improving what I was doing on the ski is what has gotten me the gains. I'm just saying I felt more able to work on those things with the new fin. Had I continue to ski like I was skiing in June of this year I'd still be struggling to get 15off/32mph ... fin or no fin.
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@jercane I am a beginning course skier and struggling with stack and body position. I am bent over at the waist as I hit the wakes from either turn direction. While skiing, it doesn't feel that way to me, but video clearly shows it. Was body position your biggest problem, and if so, what did you do to improve it?
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@bsmith I'm not sure I am qualified to provide advice or coaching but I'll tell you a couple things that worked for me. Honestly I still struggle with all the things you mention as well it just happens less frequently. Usually gets a lot worse as I get to my 6th or 7th pass in a set and I generally consider it an indication I'm getting tired and it's time to end that set.

 

Anyway couple things that helped me that came from coaching and reading some of the advice on here.

 

I found advice along the lines of "get your hips forward" or "get stacked" pretty much useless for me. Just didn't help no matter what I tried. The other thing I have read a ton about but I just haven't been able to execute is "standing taller throughout".

 

What clicked for me was a couple things.

- Square and level shoulders as much as possible (at first eyes level was helpful for me)

- Eyes down course at the ball (stop looking at the ball ... still very hard for me)

- Eyes on the pylon behind the boat (stop looking across the wake ... I found this very counter intuitive)

- Elbows to vest behind the boat (lately working on back arm pressure)

- Pressing the front knee forward to get off the tail (knee not shoulders which is what I used to do when told to pressure the tip more)

 

Now thats a laundry list so the other piece of advice I got from multiple coaches was one of those things at a time. If you try all of those or even 2 of those you will do none of them. In my opinion.

 

Also I did a zillion "whips". Go on Youtube and look for "seth stisher whips"

And I try to lock in good body position from the second I get up on the ski. Like during the run in to the course and even after the pass. I square up my hips and shoulder, I press the knee forward until the water is breaking well ahead of the binding. I used to be very sloppy about this. Bad habits are hard to break so you have to more or less never let yourself slip and get lazy.

 

All that said I am still working on every single one of these things and I'm lightyears from having any of this locked in the way I would like. So much so that I feel foolish writing any of this as if I am some sort of expert. Hell it might be months before I manage to get -28 again.

 

Good luck

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Thanks @jercane The reason I think you are qualified to comment on this is that you are succeeding right at the progress point that many of us are and it is very fresh on your mind how difficult it is to implement all the good guidance that we get from coaches and BOS members.

 

Elbows to vest sounds simple, but hard at many points of a run. Leaned away from the boat with both arms straight, I can get them close to my vest. But heading outbound off the second wake with all that centrifugal force on you makes it seem like one needs ultra strong lats to hold elbows tight to the vest in that situation. I am doing more lat work now to try and get strong enough to do that consistently.

 

I am trying all the things you mentioned, but usually within the context of trying to make a run and then scrambling to make all the buoys blows my form. I think I need to do what Jay suggested to you and that is spend more time outside the course and see if I can make linked turns with proper form. And once I can do that, see if I can bring it back into the course.

 

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Well what you are describing sounds like you may be trying to keep elbows close to the vest for too long which may be resulting in pulling too far past the second wake. Another counterintuitive thing I've been struggling with.

 

getting off topic a bit though ...

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@jercane Yes, at long line it is easy to pull too long. But what I am talking about being difficult on keeping elbows to the vest is when you do cut through the wakes hard and try to edge change properly and stay connected on the glide out to the buoy, there you want your elbows tucked to your side even while there is a lot of centrifugal force on you with the ski flat.

 

In trying to follow the general advice of holding onto the handle with two hands for a long time before dropping the outside hand, that's where I find my elbows getting pulled away from my vest frequently.

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All this above is the story of my life right now. Over pulling is killing me and I’m done when carrying too much speed at the ball. The WF is allowing me to get super wide at my gate glide though. I have to time it right for a smooth gradual turn in. If I try to turn hard I instantly get pulled out of position and the pass is done. I’m running the “stable” settings on my 2020 and it seeks angle like crazy. Trying to tame this beast. The 2020 with a WF is nuts
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I am with you on that @Than_Bogan Since about mid summer I have added deadlifts and power cleans to my weightlifting routines. I was already doing heavy squats, benches, etc. but I have added a lot more lifting exercises now that I am running the course. Free skiing didn't seem to tax me near so much.

 

I know people say that skiing is more about technique than strength, but what I am seeing both with kids and large athletic people is that you need a certain strength to weight ratio to ski well. Kids are light, but their strength is limited. Big athletes, like a college football player, are strong but their weight makes it where extreme strength is required to ski well.

 

As an ex college football and rugby player at 200 pounds, I am seeing that more strength combined with weight loss would be the ideal approach to fast improvement.

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Again, every exercise you list is productive. But what will really change your skiing are the muscles that lie between your sternum and your pelvis. Get a ball and do crazy unstable positions and movements with your core. Hang from a bar and find all sorts of creative ways to move your hips and feet toward the sky. (Look up Bubkas for a serious challenge!) Hold a kettle bell way out from your body so that your core has to lock against that torque.

I'm a scrawny, only moderately athletic 48 year old, but every spring I demonstrate core exercises to my high school athletes that none of them can do, because they have never truly emphasized those muscles -- the very ones that let a scrawny dude go deep at -38.

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@Than_Bogan I had always thought of core work as ab work and lower back work with conventional exercises like situps, crunches, and stiff legged deadlifts. But you are talking about much more dynamic core work. I looked up the Sergey Bubka movement and that is challenging. I do leg and knee lifts hanging from a bar now, but can I swing my whole lower body up over the bar? Hmmm, if I bend my knees a lot, but not sure I can do it like a pole vaulter does. Will have to make sure my bar grip is really solid before I try that!

 

But I get the point. Try some variations with balance balls, bar hangs, and kettle bells to dynamically stress the core and that type of strength gain should carry over well into water skiing.

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@jercrane I don't know anything about your build or fitness level, but just remember it is all about your strength to weight ratio and technique. Look at all of the junior girls skiers getting into some pretty short line lengths. You could probably deadlift much more than them but they still get it done!

One summer, I had lost about 20 pounds over the winter. It was amazing how much better my skiing was when I was dragging less tonnage down the lake.

 

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@jercane Yes, I am sure @Jordan was really directing his comment towards me since I am the one that brought up needing more strength to always keep my elbows close to my vest at all relevant points in the course. Obviously, when reaching towards the pylon at apex your elbows are not close to the vest.
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