Presenting - WhisperFin #1

[SkiJay]

DFT Insights

@paul413ski & @Ed_Johnson, Thank you for sharing your experience with this simplified tuning method here. I'd like to expand on how DFT affects these setups.

Since this method is guided by using the index marks to keep the fin "level" to orient the teeth with the water flow during acceleration, there are no LE-neutral DFT adjustments. All DFT changes move the fin's leading edge location (LE). So two ski behaviours change with each adjustment, yawning tip engagement and smear.

Of the two behaviours, yawed tip engagement is most affected. The further forward LE moves, the more yawning tip engagement we get from our habitual skiing inputs—all good for increased speed and power until we've gone too far and the tip starts grabbing.

But as DFT gets longer, smear also increases. So while the tip is getting more bite, the tail is also loosing some grip. This loss of tail support further increases exposure to tip-grab.

Because of this dual behavioural effect, the search for the longest LE our technique can use will also need a little more fin area to control the increasing smear. Fortunately, FD changes affect smear over six times more than DFT changes do.

So as you zero in on your max LE with DFT adjustments, you may want to throw in a few small LE-neutral fin area adjustments, where you reduce DFT by the same amount as your increase to fin area for a slight LE reduction (e.g. an increase of a 1/8 turn to fin area (FD & FL) would be accompanied by a 1/8 turn decrease in DFT).

[paul413ski]

Hi guys reluctantly let my ski buddy use the fin on the stock out of the box settings mid 38 skier first set on the fin he ran 38 @SkiJay new order on the way asap ??

[paul413ski]

Further fin ordered for my ski buddy

[SkiJay]

Hahaha! ?

When your fin order came through with your name on it, @paul413ski, I figured your buddy refused to give your fin back. That's happened a couple of times now. Thanks for letting him try it ??

[paul413ski]

Cold dead hands it’s back on the Vapor already ??

[paul413ski]

Have to keep the lake owner happy

[SkiJay]

•

[SkiJay]

WhisperFin Success Story: Yesterday, 15 year old Sophie Hunter, set two PBs in her first two sets on her new WhisperFin. In her first set, she ran 3 buoys -22@34 mph. Her next set she ran 5 balls at -28@34 mph, twice back-to-back. That is nearly a two full pass improvement in one day! Congratulations Sophie!

 

[DangerBoy]

Wow, that's an astonishing result @SkiJay! No wonder she's absolutely beaming and grinning from ear to ear. Way to go Sophie! ??

 

Watch out Regina Jacquess, it won't be long before Sophie's gonna be comin' after ya! :p

[paul413ski]

That’s the whisper fin

[block]

Thanks @ SkiJay. I did get the pressure I was needing. I miss spoke using turns to describe what I was doing. Turns = 1/8 to 1/4 turn. I moved my binding just a bit more foward , gates were magical. The water is breaking at my front boot toes. I have very little smear. I’m still running 28’s and 32’s we’ll see as I move to 35’s.

[C5Quest]

@skijay. What’s the furthest forward you’ve seen the WF Bf on a 66 Vapor (Pro)? I started with the out of box settings (3 lines showing on FD and 1 7/8 DFT) and Bf of 29 5/8. It was instant improvement and very stable.

Today experimented with just binding movement ( Bf to 29 3/4). Still felt good from a point of not overpowering the tip but overall ski felt a lot looser. Need to try again as today was very windy and rough. I noticed the numbers on the FW site are 29 3/4. You know of anyone having success at 29 7/8 or 30 or does 29 3/4 seem to be sweet spot for this ski? I know it’s an individual thing. Just curious.

[SkiJay]

@C5Quest, The furthest forward I've seen bindings on a 66" Vapor is 29.75". But like you said, it's a very personal thing. If you move further forward than that and can still get crisp tight turns by reducing fin area without the tail getting too slippery at the finish of turns, then you have a setup worth considering. If you can run your best passes with it, then it's a winner.

 

DFT isn't a measurement I worry much about. I'm more focused on how DFT affects the fin's leading edge location (LE), which is a function of FL + DFT. So to answer your question, the longest DFT's I see are on very shallow fins for light kids or VERY smooth adults.

 

Example: A good LE on a 66" Vapor is between 7.690 and 7.710. If the fin is shallow, say 2.460, matching the index marks will give you a FL of about 5.710. Since LE = FL + DFT, then DFT= LE - FL. In this case: DFT = 7.710 - 5.710 or DFT = 2.0". I think 1.960" is the longest DFT I've seen on a 66" Vapor so far.

[C5Quest]

@SkiJay Actually my question was just about Bf and accidentally typed WF DFT ( just edited it back to WF Bf) But you absolutely answered the other question I had about DFT. As I adjust I’ll take a look but try to do my own thing and follow the guide.

Things changed quite a bit with just the binding forward. Not as stable but still felt good but off side not carving like it did before. Seemed to run wide. Conditions were crap so I’ll give it a whirl tomorrow. Only have 3 sets on. The WF and my gates have really improved

[C5Quest]

Just ran with the WF site numbers. Wow.

Quick , stable and maneuverable. Still A tad slow on offside but maybe bad technique. Definitely closer to where I want to be. Hopefully a few more sets to get dialed in and start progressing. Ran up from -15 to 3@28

Amazed at how a touch of DFT and -FD changed it without a binding move again. Think I’m in a good spot at 29 3/4 on my 66 Vapor.

[Anthony Furmanovich]

@SkiJay congrats on your work! Are these babies in stock right now? Travelling from Brazil to the US and would love to get one shipped.

 

Thanks

 

AF

 

[SkiJay]

Yes-ish @Anthony Furmanovich I have fins for all brands of skis in stock now. Blue Radar fins are backordered for about 10 more days, but I have bronze fins for the Radar and both colors for all other skis in stock now. Have a great trip!

[Anthony Furmanovich]

@SkiJay great, just placed the order!

 

just a FYI, I had a problem with the brazilian paypal and had to put on paypal by brazilian shipping address to match my billing address in order to make the payment. Please consider the US shipping address which was correctly placed on your website

 

Looking fwd!

 

Thanks

[Anthony Furmanovich]

@SkiJay thanks for shipping out fast! Less than 12hrs after the order was placed

 

One question though, the starting fin settings on the website are for the 18/19 vapor?

 

Will these numbers work for a 66” 2017 probuild? I am currently running 29.5 / 6960 / 2460 / .755 / 36mph up to a few buoys at 35off

 

I actually got the above settings from you somewhere back then. Am happy with the numbers

 

Thanks

[jercrane]

Anyone found found a nice starting setup for a 66 Connelly GT. I'm kind of struggling with mine.

 

I initially went with the stock setup suggestion. My offside feels really good but my onside is a mess now. I'm sure the vast majority of my issues are skill related (too much weight on back foot, hips not square) but I'm trying to figure out how to get it at least to comfortable place. I feel like I can't really focus on my on form at all now because I'm fighting the ski. I'm having a hard time interpreting what's actually going on too. Most of the time, I'm getting wheelies coming out of the turn but then when I try to get forward I end up going out the front or breaking at the waist to save an out the front.

 

RFF, 34 mph, 28 off ... just been open water skiing so far to get the feel.

 

Maybe this is too much fin for me. :(

[C5Quest]

I had some frustrating sets as well with my offside. Working on getting hips forward and it seems to have helped. On a 66 Vapor and its definitely a process getting this thing dialed in. Started with not touching bindings and just using the set up fro the card -1 7/8th DFT. Now running the suggested #s from the FW site and will start the video process.

[SkiJay]

@jercrane & @C5Quest, I've just updated the starting setups at FinWhispering.com by supplying two setups for a couple of popular sizes—one I've headlined as "Nimble," the other as "More Supportive."

 

Just like the standard fin, one setup will never be a silver bullet for all skiers. If you are light for the ski, or if you are a finesse skier, the nimble setup will be the best place to start. If you tend to force the tail around onside turns with your back leg, or if your tip engagement tends to be more yawed than pitched, then the more supportive setup will be a better starting point.

If you start with the nimble setup, and find the tail feels a bit slippery, go straight to the more supportive setup and tune from there.

 

This binding-forward small-fin concept ups the ultimate performance of the ski. But taking advantage of this expanded performance envelope requires more finesse than a standard fin. Think "riding the ski" vs. "forcing the ski." An F1 car is more nimble than a stock car, and even the best stock car driver will need to adapt to how little "horsing" the F1 car will tolerate before he stops spinning and starts carving turns at higher limits.

[SkiJay]

@jercrane, No need to get discouraged. If it's not working, there's a reason and it can be sorted out.

 

First, the ski is a symmetrical hull. If it turns great on your offside, then it is proving that it's capable of turning at least as well on your onside. So the issue is mostly one of technique. If you got used to forcing a standard fin around onside turns with your back leg, then the same amount of force will overpower the WhisperFin even more. You'll likely adapt to using less force within a few sets, but that's not the goal here.

 

Using your back leg to turn onside turns is a habit that will limit your future progress, so regardless of your fin choice, this habit needs to change. The new habit you want to cultivate is one of moving your hips inbound from onside turns more ahead of your ski while riding mostly on your front leg.

 

Free skiing is the perfect place to work on this by doing lots of whips. Try to initiate turns on both sides by getting well up over your front foot. Then ride that front foot, proactively moving your hips inbound out of each turn—inbound, up and forward to the handle. Moving your hips aggressively inbound from the ball will take care of the wheelies.

 

).

 

If you are feeling exposed to going OTF on your offside, move the fin back .010" or until you don't feel so exposed while riding tall over your front foot. If you're only feeling exposed to going OTF on your onside, it's probably because you're forcing the tail of the ski past the angle you want at the finish of the turn, into form-crushing hockey stops. The Whips drill will help tremendously with this.

[SkiJay]

@Anthony Furmanovich, Yes the website numbers work well with the Pro Build on down. But don't accept them as perfect. Try a little tuning based on the instructions that came with the fin. We all ski differently.

[FLeboeuf]

SkiJay, I just tried the WF on my GT with a home made S-wing (denali) and really like the feeling. Offside feels impossible to screw up meaning I can put a lot of weight in the front without going OTF. It feels a tiny bit slower than with the CG fin and feels like I could smear more on my onside, which is impossible to blow out right now. I reduced my wing angle but I was wondering by reducing depth it would smear more but would it accelerate faster? or go bindings back line you suggest in the instructions?

[FLeboeuf]

I went with the instructions for the setup not with the brand specific suggestions.

[SkiJay]

@FLeboeuf, the smaller you can run the fin without the tail feeling slippery at the finish of turns, the easier it is to keep the tip low through turn finishes, straight into the cut. So I'd experiment with less fin area before going back with the bindings. And if you're not experiencing any tip grab, you want to move the fin forward too. So if you go 1/8 turn shallower (on FL and FD to keep the index marks level) then also move the fin forward 1/8 turn. If there's no tip-grab, keep moving the fin forward until the tip starts grabbing, then move back. This will give you the fastest ski possible.

[Andre]

@SkiJay

Are you thinking of designing a ski specific for the WF ?

[SkiJay]

Ha! Yup, all the time, @Andre. Then I come to my senses and just go skiing :D

[KRoundy]

Ha ha ha!!!

[Swerve200]

The Whisper Ski!

[jercrane]

Just gotta put a plug in here for any folks that are relative slalom novices like me that read my previous comments on this thread. I think I finally found a really good spot to work from on the Whisper Fin but more importantly @SkiJay went way way above and beyond helping me sort out a few things and providing me with a bunch of help evaluating my skiing to understand my struggles. I feel like I'm on the verge of a big breakthrough now. Pretty exciting.

 

I can't recommend @SkiJay 's Evaluation programs enough.

https://finwhispering.com/product/stage-i-personalized-setup-feedback/

 

All I want to do is ski right now. Not great for my motivation at work but hey can't blame anyone else for that!

[coach3]

@SkiJay Does a softer ski allow a more forward front boot? I am trying a Lithium Vapor, and it seems softer than the pro build. Might work for a mid 35 off skier?

[coach3]

@SkiJay BTW I am trying the WF for the first time tomorrow on a 66"

[ballsohard]

Here is a pic that JMac posted of his ski with the Whisper Fin and the numbers of his setup.

 

 

[SkiJay]

Question: Does a softer ski allow a more forward front boot? —@coach3,

It depends what part of the ski is softer. If the tail is softer, then yes. But your Lithium Vapor is likely not any softer than a ProBuild, and if it is, not materially so. I've done some comparison testing between the Lithium and the ProBuild Vapors, and found the Lithium to be remarkably close to the ProBuild in both performance and feel. I have no doubt that both will run solid -39s in competent hands, and that both will give you a pretty equal fighting chance at running full 35s.

[paul413ski]

Mini review - 20 sets in tonight the miracle of miracles happened - still cold here in the UK normally takes me until at least the end of July to start seeing 35 off on a regular basis Tonight for the first time in my life I have seen 1@38 @Horton was right for mid 35 skiers you may find this fin helps I can confirm it does For those of you running 38 you are all slalom skiing God’s @SkiJay thank you for all the help and support behind the scenes

[rfa]

Curious about two seemingly divergent perspectives on fin dynamics.

From @AdamCord (May 6)

"@Dano leading edge position doesn’t matter..."

From @SkiJay (May 19)

"DFT isn't a measurement I worry much about. I'm more focused on how DFT affects the fin's leading edge location...".

Do these opinions reflect inherent properties of your respective fins (CG, WT)?

Or, do they reflect your own generic perspective/understanding on ski/fin interaction and dynamics?

I could speculate, but you both know best. Thanks

[Drago]

@AdamCord is right.

[skialex]

This is a good question, from personal experience after tuning many skis I have seen a correlation between tip pressure and leading edge. Especially on finicky skis like Goodes, unless I want to change the tip characteristics when doing small adjustments, I always try to keep LE neutral. However when fin area doesn’t change like going from short/deep to long/shallow I have noticed small or no change on tip characteristics.

Anyway I’d like to see the expert’s view on this.

[skiinxs]

I finally had a chance to ski a couple sets with my old fin then mount up the Whisper fin. I am very impressed by the way the ski now finishes the turn with the tip down and is much more consistent hooking up. Very smooth. I am sure this will make me a better skier this year. Feels like an upgrade to a great new ski for much less money than a new ski. (I am currently on an Arc-S)

[skialex]

I just installed a WF on a 66” evo s, instead of using the directions that came with the fin, I used the specific numbers posted on finwishpering site for the evo 65”.

Index marks are not equal though, (not by much) as suggested. @SkiJay should I leave it as is? I know it’s not a 65” but I’m more familiar with using a caliper rather than my eye and tape measure.

Thanks in advance,

Alex,

[C5Quest]

? I’m not sure how measuring 1 7/8 with a tape and setting the lines level is more complicated than using a caliper and numbers for a ski that isn’t your size....

Seems counterproductive but that’s just me.

The good part is you can eyeball the level lines and just adjust DFT to start. Best of luck

[pcmcon729]

@SkiJay I currently ski on a Goode XTR which I'm very happy with. I run stock recommended settings for both fin and bindings and always have with all Goodes I've been on. I run 35 @ 34 consistently once I'm up to speed (NH skier). I'm fairly symmetrical on both sides. I wouldn't change a thing on my off side, but wouldn't mind a slightly tighter radius onside, and more speed behind the boat on both sides would be an added bonus. I don't want to screw up my off side turn. Recommendations if I try WF? Also, at $300, any return policy?

[coach3]

When evaluating what a specific member contributes to an airplane, (like the empennage for example), the center of lift is determined. Likewise, the center of lift of the fin would be a similar type contribution. LE may do other things to the ski, but tail lift would not be from LE but the center of lift of the fin assembly. Admittedly, that will change with ski angle, but at each angle it is the center of lift, whether it is long and shallow or deep and short, not the beginning of the LE of the fin from my view.

 

[SkiJay]

@skialex, So long as you look at any setup as a starting setup that you will then customize to best meet your personal needs, then you'll probably end up in much the same place regardless of where you start. That 65" setup is a good starting setup for a finesse skier. But I'd move the bindings forward at least 1/2" from there for a 66" ski. Better still, I just got done helping a 32 off skier on a 66" evo, and this is where we ended up: 29.625, 7°, 2.510, 5.748, 1.935 (LE=7.683).

[SkiJay]

@pcmcon729, The WhisperFin is fully adjustable. You can make it turn nice clean round turns or quick snap turns, depending on how you set it up. What most skiers find from the generic setup (before custom tuning) is that their turns are slightly tighter, and noticeably easier to initiate and finish with the WhisperFin. And contrary to appearances, this fin is very low drag. The holes in a standard fin create a tremendous amount of drag. The bands of laminar flow across the low pressure side of this fin generate noticeably less drag than holes. Less drag delivers quicker acceleration from the same skier effort.

 

Because I'm travelling so much and have no fixed office or staff, processing returns is not something I can handle right now. Perhaps you can split the cost of one fin with a buddy. The chances of one of you buying out the other are pretty high. And worst case, this limits the downside if you both decide to sell it.

[lpskier]

Spent the day yesterday with @SkiJay (or was it @jayski? I get those guys confused. Canadians, they all look alike to me. Anyway, the fin guy). Set up the Whisper Fin on my Mapple T3. Set up was very easy. I cheated and used calipers with normal length, depth and DFT settings instead of using a tape and marks on the fin. Took about five minutes to get set as the fin slides effortlessly in my Radar clamp.

 

I took two sets. Both very interesting with a mid-set adjustment each time. I was very impressed with the product. Thanks Jay!

[skialex]

@SkiJay thank you for the recommendations. I did place the boots 1/2” forward. Ski belongs to an over 65 men skiing at -35 and a very finesse skier, I will tell him to move the boot 1/8” forward, now it is at 29.50”. Testing is tomorrow, don’t have time to do any changes as we both work. Hope he gives me good input as I won’t be there to watch him. But we will work on the ski this Saturday.

@lpskier I have found that one piece fin clamps like Radar or Goode are a lot easier to setup, not a big deal though, just easier. Fins don’t change that much when tightening the screws.

[jayski]

@lpskier C'mon man, we're pretty easy to tell apart in summer...in the dead of winter under 20 layers of clothes to not freeze up there...ya we all look alike