Presenting - WhisperFin #1

[Wish]

My question from the other WF thread:

 

Related to SkiJays comment;

 

To adjust tip traction, move the whole fin back and forth (forward for more tip bite, and back if experiencing tip-grab).

 

Is tip bite and tip grab interchangeable terms or two diff things??

[SkiJay]

@Wish, Yes. I used to use the two terms interchangeably, but it's been evolving. Tip bite seems more like a description of how much bite or traction the tip has. And tip grab is what happens when the tip developers too much bite/traction.

[richfoster]

@SkiJay,Based on what you said about the tail characteristics of the KD,should I avoid the binding forward adjustments ?

[customski]

@SkiJay

Do you think the key points of the fin whispering book still apply with the two new fin designs?

In particular the Le neutral adjustments?

 

[SkiJay]

@richfoster, Everyone is different. But yes, I'd leave the bindings at stock on the KD to start. You can always move forward from there If the ski's tail is too loose.

[SkiJay]

@customski, yes, all of the principles outlined in Fin Whispering apply to the WhisperFin, including LE-neutral DFT adjustments. In the book, I was explaining how we can adjust one isolated ski behavior at a time. The tuning method I'm promoting with the WhisperFin is focused on maximum simplicity.

[Not_The_Pug]

@SkiJay I got to try the Whisper Fin today. Went with set up from the card. Ski felt good at 28 off (34 mph), but at 32 off I was getting too much smear at the end of turn. Tuning card said to move bindings forward if too much smear in the middle, but not at end. Ski is 68 Goode Revolution.

[Ryota]

I just took a first set on WF today.

I was very surprised how fast it was and tip of the ski stays down.

Wider for the gate easily, and get lot of speed with little effort into the wakes. First 2 or 3 passes, i had to adjust the timing. I was very nervous about the fin and settings first but I was totally comfortable on last 3 passes.

Even though I was kinda over-speed into the buoy, tip of the ski stayed down and just kept going.

I just need to take couples of more sets to get used to it and see how I should tune my fin. I feel great potentials on this fin already and exited for season ahead! Thank you @SkiJay !

[SkiJay]

Issue: The tail gets loose during my harder passes

 

Excellent question @Krlee, and I'd like to address this in detail.

 

The generic WhisperFin setup is aimed at mid-level skiers and advanced finesse-skiers (I've seen a number of finesse skiers ride the generic setup into -41, but they're not mere mortals). For most strong and or advanced skiers, the generic setup doesn't provide enough tail support during advanced passes—as you've noted @Krlee.

 

When smear is perfect in earlier passes but gets looser as the rope shortens, it's usually because we tend to drive more tip into the water around turns in our harder passes. And the level of tail grip that was perfect while skiing with more finesse through easier passes is insufficient to keep up with the increased tip engagement. This is why it's important to tune our skis for our harder passes.

 

That said, don't try to calibrate your setup to your hardest pass (the one you usually fail at). Most skiers' technique degrades too much during their hardest pass, and ski-tuning in response to the resulting mistakes leads to comprised setups. Instead, focus your ski-tuning efforts on your second hardest pass (the hardest pass you make most of the time).

 

If you find that with the generic setup, the tail of your ski feels too slippery through your second hardest pass, you'll need to:

reduce tip engage by moving the fin's leading edge (LE) back,

increase tail support with a forward binding move or more fin area, or

both reduce tip and increase tail support.

You'll need video to establish if the tail is loose because you have too much tip in the water at the time, or if the tail is loose despite nice balanced tip engagement (with the water breaking between 4" and 12" ahead of your front toes. If you are regularly burying too much tip into the water (usually yawed tip engagement) then move the fin back to achieve a more manageable tip attitude.

 

If tip engagement looks good, then the problem is insufficient tail support. If the tail is too loose through mid-turn at max lean angles, then move the bindings FORWARD. If the tail smears nicely around the turn but doesn't stop smearing soon enough as you roll out of the turn (over-smears briefly into too much angle), add fin area, trying to keep the index marks equal.

 

Note that using binding location for mid-turn smear and fin area for turn-exit smear is for skiers whose hips are within 12" of the water around the ball. This advanced smear-tuning technique (and this article) is unnecessary for skiers not achieving max lean angles. Skiers who don't lean to extremes never roll their fins out of play, so all of their smear tuning can be done with the fin (reduce fin area until the tip starts to grab, then replace some fin area).

 

Don't let the resulting numbers constrain your tuning. Your bindings will almost certainly end up forward of factory settings, and fin depth (FD) may go as deep as 5.600+. I have one powerful pro at FD = 5.585 and the ski behaves brilliantly well into -41. This deep fin setting is largely the result of running out of forward binding movement. But it's important to understand that even at supper deep FD settings, roll resistance feels normal because of this fin's small size.

 

To summarize, it's perfectly normal for the generic setup to get looser as the rope shortens. And there is more than enough adjustability to dial in perfect tail support and angle out of turns for any skier. I encourage you to experiment, basing your changes on ski behavior, not any preconceived notions of what numbers you are seeing.

[jimbrake]

@Krlee and @SkiJay - took my second set on the WF last night in much better conditions, so got a better feel for what the ski and fin were doing and I felt the exact same thing as Kevin. 28 no issue, 32 too much smear which killed speed through the turn and hampered acceleration. It was doable, but not right. 35 would've been worse. I'll bump bindings forward for next set. I'm already thinking forward + more fin area, but I'll do one at a time.

[Not_The_Pug]

@SkiJay This was very helpful. I will make the changes tonight like @jimbrake suggested, one at a time to get the desired set up.

[ktm300]

@SkiJay Where does the skis rocker fit into this equation? Most of the discussion seems to focus on getting the correct drift as if the ski is flat. I ask this because, in the past, I have thought of boot location as standing in the right spot to be on the kick point designed into the shape of the ski. I am wondering if having the boots so far forward to accommodate a small fin and get the correct drift in the turns can be reconciled with the need to be standing in a certain spot on the ski white water to white water. Put another way, the ski can be made to turn great with drift, but as the ski flattens out going across does not the rocker cause the back end to be looser if one is standing on the front of the ski. If drift is the sole focus and rocker is nearly irrelevant, then why not have the boots back with a bigger fin? I did read and think I understand your point about the apex (max roll angle) taking the fin out of the equation to some degree so that the boots become the smear regulating force there. It is white water to white water that I am having a hard time understanding the concepts. If you asked me what will happen if I move my boots 1/2 foward, I would say prepare to go OTF or at least land on your front foot after the second wake and ski straight at the next buoy. I hope my questions are somewhat intelligible. As you know, I'm not great at expressing ideas about physical things. Thanks Jay

 

 

[SkiJay]

@ktm300, The rocker does affect binding location from ski brand to brand and model to model. And for the most part, moving forward of where you normally sand with a standard fin is well within the adjustability envelope—i.e. no where near what most skiers do with their technique while skiing.

 

Goode ski models with a lot of rocker, wide forebodies and narrow tails allow for less forward binding movement before tip behavior gets compromised, D3 and Radar are happy as far forward as I've ever been able to go ... unless the ski is too small for the skier in the first place. So yes, this forward movement is ski and technique dependant.

 

This is why the instructions recommend exploring how small you can make the fin by moving forward before you 1) run out of forward binding movement, 2) the tail gets too loose at the end of turns, or 3) an issue with tip behavior crops up—like feeling exposed to OTFs through the wakes. And on the third point, I'll also say that feeling exposed to an OTF at the wakes can also be a technique issue, where the skier's COM and feet are not moving past the rope early enough in the crossing.

 

When moving the bindings forward is no longer an improvement, simply move back 1/8" and increase fin area until the ski smears into ideal angle for the cut.

[skialex]

This makes sense, I mostly ride Goodes and can only ride my boots at stock or backward. Even 1/8 forward is to much and don’t ski well. On D3s I can ski with the bindings much forward than stock and have modified plates for skier to allow even more forward placement and they ski really well.

Haven’t bought the fin yet, I will try one soon and really want to buy one, but having to put bindings forward could be a deal breaker. I like the suggestion of fin forward if needed instead of the boots.

Looking forward to try the WF.

[C5Quest]

@skijay. Do you suggest moving the back binding forward along with the front or experiment with just front movement? I have the micro-adjust on my front and rear Reflex plates giving me the ability to keep my back toe as close as possible to front. So basically I’ve always considered them as one movement similar to using a singular base plate.

[SkiJay]

@C5Quest, Moving the rear binding forward isn't critical if it's difficult to achieve. But I recommend moving the rear binding as far forward as possible at all times. The only exception (which I still don't like) is to help onside turns by giving the back leg more power. But this is a crutch that compromises ultimate performance.

 

@skialex, Goodes like this fin. Three Big Dawgs have them, with Bruce Dodd setting a national record on his XTR. Even if you've not had a good experience moving forward on Goodes in the past, moving forward with this fin won't be the same experience. And even if you don't like how moving forward feels or works, you just have to run the fin a bit larger than it's run on other skis. Even run at FD = 2.600, the WhisperFin is WAY smaller than the standard fin, making it easier to keep the tip down through the transition into an earlier cut. Plus you still get the low drag benefits.

[C5Quest]

@SkiJay Thanks for the info. I have short legs so I keep the rear very close and always move them together if possible. Even cut a hole in the back of my reflex R type shell so I can measure Bfront without removing the rest. Very convenient

[SkiJay]

 

@Sprayblaster, You asked if these fins are delivering PBs for anyone. Meet 12 year old Megan Spelkey. Megan had been working hard to run -28s. She put a WhisperFin on her ski a week ago and has since run a series of PBs. Yesterday, she skied into -35 for her first time ever.

[Sprayblaster]

Nice. Based on the tape on her hand, looks like she has been earning them.

[Ed_Johnson]

@SkiJay .... Looks like her fin is well forward and shallow. Congrats on the PB's.

 

I only mention this since the farther forward and shallower I go with the fin, the more aggressive the ski gets. I mean REALLY aggressive !!!

 

 

 

[SkiJay]

I'm just guessing here, but I bet she's 100 lbs. Lighter than you, @Ed_Johnson ?

[SkiJay]

@Ed_Johnson, You can also make it super stable by going deeper and back. It can accommodate a very wide range. If it's not behaving predictably and inspiring confidence, it's not yet fully dialed in.

[Ed_Johnson]

What I like about this fin is the ability to go from Mild to Wild...A normal factory fin usually skis like crap till you find the sweet spot. Not the WF, the performance you want is totally selectable. While I use Calipers, you don't have to. You could easily use the reference marks for depth and length, and a tape measure for DFT.

 

As Jay mentioned before, back and deep, which is what the NRG chart gave me, was super stable. As I moved the fin forwrd and shallower, the ski became WAY more responsive. I am absolutely Loving it !!!

 

 

[Stevie Boy]

Anybody put the Whisper Fin on a Radar Senate ?

[Rednucleus]

12 yrs old, skiing in to 35 off- time to sell my ski and take up golf again (:

[block]

Stevie, I have 5 sets on my 67” Senate Pro Build. I started with the numbers on the Whisper fin site. It felt loose, too easy to roll on edge. I moved the bindings toward 3/8”,they were @ 30 3/4”. This produced school bus turns. I have gone three 1/4 turns up and three 1/4 turns forward. The ski is starting to feel great. I am only running 22-28-32 so far. I need more sets , and some sets @ 35 to see if it will need more tuning.

[DavidN]

 

 

[C5Quest]

She’s been running that WF for a while now I believe. At least the last few months I’ve been down skiing with Matt

[chris55]

I saw that too and it looks like her front ski stays more horizontal at the end of her turn ....jsut my opinion...

[paul413ski]

The journey of bindings forward and smaller fin continues

[ozski]

Cheap one on SIA -

http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Slalom&postid=51080

[jimbrake]

Just an update on my setup/adjustment process if anyone is interested or is going through the same process and getting different feels. I went through the process of sequential forward binding moves with the fin set at the initial setting that Jay advises. I'm on a 67" D3 EVO (2018 model). I started with my front boot all the way back at 29 5/8 then went to 29 3/4, then 30.0 +/- (I was measuring with my back boot in the way so having to eye it). 30 is too far forward for me. I ride the front pretty hard anyway and at 30 it was dumping me in on my onside. Moved back to 29 3/4 and shallowed up the fin about 1/4 to 1/2 turn of the set screws. That made for a "nice" ride. Nothing to get super excited about, but nice. Symmetrical, a little smear into good angle. Next I'll shallow up some more to see how smeary it gets. Just 28s and 32s so far.

[SkiJay]

@jimbrake, You're doing the right things for the right reasons. The goal with seeing how smeary it will get is to settle on something that feels (and looks on video) dependable and supportive most of the time. If/when you dunk more tip into the water than intended, there should be some over-smear into a little too much angle, but not enough to end your pass. A setup like this allows you to drive a lot of tip into the water to smear a really tight turn when scrambling—without spinning out. If you often get a slippery feeling at the end of turns with only moderate scrambling, add fin area.

[block]

I need a bit of advice. I am on a 67” Senate Pro Build. I started with the #’s on the the web site and the ski felt loose. Binding Foward 3/8” , school bus turns. I went several turns ccw on the FD and several Cw moving FL foward. The ski is getting close but, I’m having a hard time getting good starts. When I pull out and get as far on my front foot (LFF)as I can, the ski will not slow down and I lose the line. I feel very little tip pressure.

What is my next step?

[SkiJay]

JMac very graciously agreed to let me post this video of his first set on the WhisperFin. It's 39 off (10.75 m) at 36 mph, after some winter time off, on the generic WhisperFin setup. I'd like to point out two things in particular. Note how far up the tip the water-break is indicating good solid front foot pressure. And check out the smile at the end of the pass.

 

Jason McClintock on the WhisperFin

[kc]

@SkiJay JMac’s sister sure looked impressive at The Swiss Pro with her’s!

[JAS]

Great skiing. Is that a jump in tournament score for Whitney?

[DangerBoy]

@Skijay, you can see he's got tons of tip pressure on both sides if you freeze the video as he rounds the 5 and 6 balls at about 18 and 20 seconds. No wheelies happening there!

[ozski]

Ski went vertical on 1 - 3 - 5 @SkiJay would be interesting to know how you tuned this out?

[Sprayblaster]

@DangerBoy, are we watching the same video? It looks like he had the most tip rise at 5, and in general he's got tip rise at every ball. My question is, does that matter?

 

I personally spent about 2 months last summer trying to tune out tip rise. Then I got to sit in the boat and watch Nate Smith ski. He had tip rise right from the start at 32off. From that point I decided it doesn't matter as long as it's not preventing you from getting the handle back to you hip for the pull.

 

When I gave up on the tip rise chase and focused on doing what ever I can to create space and stay connected my score started to improve.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to get tip rise limited as much as possible just that from my experience it shouldn't be the focus .

[DangerBoy]

@ozski @Drago @Bruce_Butterfield @Sprayblaster Pardon my untrained eye but these frame captures show exactly what I was looking at on Ball 5 and Ball 6. This is what I was referring to when I said there appears to be a lot of tip pressure as he rounds the turn at those balls. What I see there is the tip being quite low and the water breaking just below the tip. Do you not see that too? Is that not what @SkiJay said to look for in the video? Please educate me if I'm wrong.

 

Ball 5

 

 

Ball 6

 

 

 

[Skierx]

@DangerBoy agreed, ski looks good at that point. Everyone was referring to the exit off the ball . The point where the tip would raise up momentarily and then he would reset the angle and go.

[Ed_Johnson]

Update: After 8 sets now on the WF I have learned a lot about it. The greatest attribute is the fact I can dial in the amount of SMEAR I want coming off the apex. Their seems to be a direct correlation between DFT and Smear. Depth initially was 2.530. I kept decreasing it by .010, and settled on 2.500 for now, and have been playing a lot with DFT, which seems to be the most sensitive. I found the range to be from 1.960 to 1.980. 60 was super stable, but going any where past 80, sent me on a survival ride. I now know for me that is the limit. I feel the magic number is 1.970, which gives you very easy controllable smear, with little effort, setting great angle, while accelerating off the ball.

 

Have not cut to 35 yet because I want to totally dial it in at 28 and 32 to have complete faith as to what it is going to do. Suspect for 35 and 38, going forward to 1.975 will be the bomb.

 

Bottom line being that you can comfortably keep going forward to increase performance, which you will definitely feel. You will KNOW when you have gone to far, believe me !!!!

 

I am hoping some others using calipers, will post some numbers on here so we can get a consensus as to what is working and not working. Just saying I turned it 1/4 this way doesn't tell you much since there is no reference as to where you started and finished and what that did for you. For instance, I found my DFT range to be .020, with large performance differences, just in that short of range. Thanks !!!

 

 

[DangerBoy]

Here's another thing @SkiJay said to look for in the video. It's hard to catch 'cause the resolution's only good enough to see it in one or two frames. You have to zoom in a lot and go through that part of the video frame by frame even just to glimpse it but I think you can see what I'm looking at pretty clearly in the screen cap below. Do you see it?

 

Exit Gate Frame Grab Zoom

 

 

[C5Quest]

Anyone have experience with the WF on a 66 Vapor Pro? Seems everyone here is on a 67. I finally got around to getting a couple sets this week. My pull and space on the gates and ability to not drift in prior to gates is great. This thing is loud! It literally howls when I pull for the gates. Super stable running the easy set up numbers...3 lines showing for FD, DFT 1 7/8s as instructed, Bf at 29 5/8s.

On side ok. Speed across the wakes is awesome. Just starting out with -15/22s at 34 mph. I few sets getting so early to the ball I had to time to sip on cappuccino ?. Off side hasn’t been great. Getting so much speed and angle I’m getting pulled out of position off the second wake and giving space up to the boat. My own bad technique. Settings on website are close to suggested on the set up card except bump Bf to 29 3/4. Will try this next and add a touch of DFT and shallow Up FD to match WF website settings. Am I in for a wild ride with these adjustments?

[Drago]

@DangerBoy yep, low tip until it had to relieve the pressure somehow.

[paul413ski]

@Ed_Johnson went on the same journey as you dtf at 1.960 was a hold on survival lesson went back to 1.930 and feels more stable and under control 69.5 vapor will reduce depth on next set to induce more smear

[Ed_Johnson]

@paul413ski .... Thank you for sharing that. Now that I zeroed in on DFT, my next step was to shallow the fin some more. My stock setting on the Website that I started at was 2.530. That immediately felt to deep, so I have been, for some time at 2.500 Right and 2.468 Left side. Adding the washers to the Left side really helped the onside turn.

 

Let me know how it works for you and what your results are. I will start next week shallowing mine in small increments every set. THX

 

 

[SkiJay]

Hi @block, If 3/8" forward made the ski turn like a bus, it's too much. If you have Mikro-Just, move back 1/4". If you can't move your bindings in small increments, then move the bindings back to where you started and use fin area to settle the tail down. And you shouldn't need to make "several turns" of the adjustment screws. A 1/4 turn is about .010".

 

At this point, you may want to record where you are, then reset the fin to the generic setup to see how you like it now that you're more up to speed in the season. You can then tune from there again if necessary. If you're really happy with how the ski is behaving now, disregard this whole post. I may be misinterpreting your explanation.

[paul413ski]

So 10 sets in started with numbers provided by @SkiJay and found them to be a little to mad for me Now going to ski at 31.25 front binding dtf at 1.930 depth 2.495 length 5.750 69.5 2019 Vapor mid 35 skier on a good day already been to my practice PB more times on this fin than the whole of last year I am pretty sure with more time on the water 35 will fall Thanks @Ed_Johnson for all your input