New Lake Development... Input Wanted

[swbca]

Wake Boat Loud Speaker policy

Your development should be a success in a region without an abundance of natural lakes. Our second home is on a fully populated lake with several wake boats. We don't mind the wake boats but the use of the audio systems on the wake boats is a killer. In our area the culture of Wake Surfing includes playing music at rock concert level amplitude. Its encouraged by the high powered speakers installed on the bridge. Banning their use in the rules would be the first thing I would need to know as a prospective buyer. The average distance from shore to boat is 500 feet on our lake, but that doesn't mitigate the loud music problem.

 

I saw your comments about restricting music in early and late hours. That's a start but loud music at any time is a fatal detraction to the lake side living experience for home owners. Especially when the boat path is so close to the home owner's back yard. On our lake we have been at neighbor's homes for an outdoor happy hour or meal where everyone went indoors and the owner closed the windows to escape the Wake Boat music. Its as much fun as rain at a picnic. I think most people enjoy all the other sounds of people having fun on the lake. Boat motors and kids playing are the good sounds of a vital lake community.

 

IMO it would be best to deal with this preemptively in your lake usage program. There would be no downside in controlling it before it causes discontent in the neighborhood . . . . and an impediment to sales. In our suburban communities a 30-50% premium is paid for homes on a small pond just for the ambience and line of site privacy. From my experience of living on a lake with wake boats, your ambience $value$ would be inverted if the big speakers were playing on your lake. If you are providing the boats you could make it simple by not having the speakers installed, but still have the policy so something doesn't change easily at a later date. And to prevent high powered portables from being brought on board by individual users.

 

I just setup a Poll on this question . . Just asking the question makes it a loaded question, but it may still provide some insight.

[Such_a_brett]

@swbca

 

Your input is appreciated. We've had a lot of discussion about this. Right now we are leaning toward music is allowed below certain decibel levels and with no explicit lyrics. It will probably be something like 55-60 decibels, which means the riders cannot discern the words while moving, but maybe a decent tradeoff. For reference, 55-60dB is a normal adult conversation. Since our boats are run through the boat club, it's easier to control.

 

I agree with your sentiments.

[swbca]

Maybe you have already tested your guidelines. The decibel limits may not be all that helpful unless you have real-time limiters on the amplifiers. The playback level is quite variable between music titles and some musical sounds are much more penetrating to the ear than others.

 

As a compromise I would be inclined having standard boat sound system and speakers installed and skip the speakers on the bridge.

 

In addition, the standard should be . . . the sound of the boat's engine and hull should leave the audio program 90% muted from the shore. Lakeside you could tell music is playing but not an annoyance.

[Rednucleus]

A poll was just posted re music but not available for everyone to vote. Any chance this can be moved? Thanks!!

[Edmund]

@Such_a_brett I wholeheartedly agree with @swbca to preemptively get the music issue under control before it becomes a problem. I have a lakefront cabin on a narrow public lake where the distance to the other shore across from me is at most 500 ft; so boats frequently pass within 100 ft (sometime even 50 ft) of my dock. Loud music is somewhat common on weekends here along with the occasional vulgar lyrics. Sometimes I can hear the music coming up the lake before I hear the engine sound. You did mention prohibiting "no explicit lyrics" which can be a matter of opinion, especially these days. And @swbca also raises a good about decibels; how will you measure them? Stating that "the riders cannot discern the words while moving" may be difficult to enforce as well.

Looks like you have a great set of plans for your development, and I would not want the experience ruined by people turning up the volume on your club boats. I wish you the best of luck. If I lived in your area, I sure would be interested.

[Such_a_brett]

I think there are two good mechanisms. The suggestion to remove bridge speakers is a good one as they are designed to send loud music outside the boat.

 

Secondly, it's not particularly difficult to install a volume limiter that is pre-set for 60db at 75ft. Sound intensity is non-linear. So 60db is 10x more intense than 50db. If we preset a varied playlist to peak at 60db @ 75ft that would probably be a good starting point and then adjust down from there if necessary.

 

I agree about vulgarity, but it easiest just to use the typical ratings. Pandora, YouTube Music, public radio, etc all do a pretty good job following FCC regulations. Beyond that it will just have to be keeping the volume low enough to prevent otherwise vulgar themes from imposing on residents.

 

This community isn't meant to provide the big lake boating experience where 12 people go out for an entire afternoon far from anyone else, blasting music and goofing off more than actually skiing. There are a couple very large cold mountain lakes within a reasonable drive for that. This is meant for those who want to be relaxing in their backyard, boat noses up to the shore, they hop on and ski/surf for 30-60 minutes while someone cooks their steak or burgers, and then they warm up in the hot tub while chatting and watching others enjoy their time on the water. Or the avid skier who wants to get a few turns in on glass before leaving for work or just before dinner.

[DW]

@Such_a_brett - How will your decibel data be gathered, used and how will it be enforced. Your regulations will need the reading be put in specific terms, for events that require noise abatement the decibel reading is documented as a maximum decibel level at a given distance. It is also fairly easy to defeat or somewhat circumvent the noise reader so take that in to account as you move forward. Noise is very directional and weather related. Good luck.

[Such_a_brett]

One benefit here is that it isn't a public lake. There can be relatively strict limits and because there are no personal watercraft, it's easier to enforce.

[escmanaze]

@Such_a_brett

 

Still no website!!??

[escmanaze]

Also, do you have a policy on the topic of VRBO?

[DW]

@Such_a_brett - how many condo units & how many parcels have slalom lake access?

[LoopSki]

I’d be more worried about ever being able to get a set in over the music issue. I hate feeling rushed and I have a feeling the only way to make it work with that many houses is to just run sets back to back like a tournament.

[escmanaze]

@LoopSki On the 4th of July? Sure. But on any average Wednesday, I bet sets will be easy to come by and not rushed at all. I guess only time will tell though eh?

[Such_a_brett]

@DW the condos aren't approved yet because they will require a rezone. They also do not inherently have boat access. Beyond the 123 home lots, there will be a limited number of boat club memberships available for purchase to the community (the condo residents can purchase one of those if available) the quantity of which will be adjusted based on how busy the lakes are.

 

There are 13 lots on the slalom lake, but all members have the ability to use both lakes.

[Such_a_brett]

@LoopSki I agree with @escmanaze. Other than prime holidays, there should be plenty of boat times available.

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze all of the phase 1 lots (29 in total) are VRBO friendly. The rest of the lots are restricted in the CCR. Any VRBO properties must run them through the property management company which will ensure that they are well maintained and professionally operated.

[Such_a_brett]

Website will be up in the next couple days. I'll post it here.

[escmanaze]

@Such_a_brett

Wait, so you are saying that I can buy one of the first 29 lots, build a house on it, rent out the house to a different person each week, and whoever has it rented for that week can have full access to both lakes?

 

I have to say, I disagree with allowing VRBO on these lakes, but if you are going to allow it, I kind of then want to be the guy who buys it and then VRBOs it. Especially if you already have a property management company on-site to take care of the majority of the management.

 

Hmmmm...

 

 

Also, what does the leaf on the lot mean on the maps? Already reserved?

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze

 

The boats are pay-per-use as explained earlier in the thread. While technically the renters get access to the boats, they would still have to schedule them and the renter boat rates will be substantially higher than owners. Think more along the lines of what people pay on vacation. For example, if I go on vacation and rent a nice Malibu for half a day with my family, I'll be spending a couple thousand bucks all-in. Similarly, while a lake resident can spend the afternoon on the water for a couple hundred bucks, a renter would be multiples of that. We are using market forces to prevent renters from overrunning the place. It also is used to offset the cost for residents. Keeping use rates and HOA fees very low.

[Such_a_brett]

https://willowlakesutah.com

 

The grey lots are reserved and there are actually 15 more reserved now that haven't made it to the map yet. Open to any feedback.

[ETskier]

I would never buy into any kind of private neighborhood which allowed VRBO or Airbnb rentals. Maybe long term with hoa approval.

[Such_a_brett]

Most places the HOA has no legal right to prevent long term renters (anything over 3 months). There are lots of places that restrict short term rentals. But in Utah, if you want waterfront, you don't have many choices.

[DW]

@Such_a_brett - can you elaborate on scheduling or how a ski set will work on the slalom lake? How would I schedule then grab a set? You note drivers & boats provided, is that the only way to ski? Is a driver always on standby if one can’t either have a boat or is not authorized to drive?

[Such_a_brett]

There will be a scheduling app for 15min turns (including pickup/drop off). There is a base rate per turn for boat club memberships (each lot owner's household is automatically a club member). The base rate pays for fuel, maintenance, driver, etc but isn't meant to turn a profit, so will be very reasonable. Also on the app for the big lake is the ability to schedule exclusive time or shared water. If you're kid is a wakeboard phenom and wants glass water to himself, there is a modest surcharge. OTOH, if your kid is just tubing with some friends or learning how to surf and don't care much about a bit of chop, the use fee is cheaper because the big lake is large enough for 2 boats with minor chop, 3 boats if everyone is tubing and actually wants more chop. Since these days the vast majority of riders are surfing and tubing, this dramatically increases the amount of turns open to schedule. Obviously, the slalom lake is one boat only and the boat model and setup will be conducive to skiing rather than wake sports.

 

Each household will be allowed a certain number of turns scheduled far in advance (60-120 days in advance) at the base rate. We'll adjust based on demand, but imagine something like 20 turns. You can still schedule more than that number well in advance but the rate starts to go up. Effectively, there isn't a limit on how much a person can schedule well in advance, but it will become exponentially expensive because they are essentially commandeering the boat availability at everyone else's disadvantage.

 

From 30-60 days in advance your allotment at the base rate increases. From 10-30 days it increases again. And within 10 days it is unlimited. Basically, everyone had ample opportunity to schedule their time by then. Also, anyone who wants can hang out at the pools and hot tubs on the dock waiting for no-shows and jump in to take the turn. No-shows will be partially charged, so anyone waiting to jump in can get a turn for a discount.

 

Similarly, within your allotment at the base rate, the app will start to increase the rate if there are more than 2 turns scheduled within a 2 hour window. It won't increase too much at first but will scale rapidly. This allows plenty of different members to get time even on the busy days.

 

So if you just like to get a couple turns in every couple days sometime within a 3 hour window and don't mind waiting to schedule 20-30 days out, you should get most or all of your time at the base rate. OTOH, if a person jumps on the app asap in Feb and wants to block out two boats 11am-5pm on the wake lake for a family reunion on July 4th, that is going to cost them thousands for the privilege.

 

The boats are provided by the club and will be rotated for new ones every couple years. Yes a driver will always be available. But we intend to allow a limited number of members to get certified as drivers to help cover the shoulder periods when there is low demand; before Apr 15th and after Oct 15th. Also early mornings. These individuals will need to be trained and insured like any other driver to mitigate club liability.

 

When you schedule your turn on the app, you'll indicate pickup spot, either nosing up to your backyard if you have a lake lot, or at the dock. You go take your turn(s) and then get dropped off. Club takes care of cleaning, fueling, and maintaining the boats.

 

The intent is no-hassle boating where you only pay for what you use. You don't need to buy a boat, a truck and trailer to pull it, and a garage to keep it in. It's surprisingly economical when everyone shares the cost. And I think we all enjoy being towed by a new prostar or wakesetter if it doesn't break the bank. For those who just want to live on the water but only rarely use the boats, we don't believe they should be paying a high HOA fee just to watch others boat all day.

 

[Such_a_brett]

For those wondering, there will.also.be ample non-motorized time. Both lakes have a buoyed off paddle/swim section, but additionally there will be scheduled paddle time on the full lakes allowing staff to clean and fuel the boats. Because the boats are run by the club it is easy for us to guarantee that some rogue boater isn't shooting down the lake during paddle time.

[Taynton]

So..... I think its a great idea and I really hope it works! However, the real question is and Im sure its what me and all the guys on here are really wondering.. was it coincidence that lot #69 is the best lot or did you guys just start there?

[Such_a_brett]

:#

[LoopSki]

Good luck with this project. Very cool yet complex. Would never be something of interest to me , but I am sure it’s appealing to others. So how many boats are you going to need? You will want back ups in case of a breakdown.

[Such_a_brett]

@LoopSki thanks for the input. We completely understand that the boating crowd that likes the experience of owning a boat and going out on a public lake with the family for a day or a weekend won't really be into this concept. Unfortunately here in UT that experience is going downhill rapidly due to rapid population growth and overcrowding at a limited number of lakes and reservoirs. It's been even worse the last couple years as the drought has reduced the reservoirs to the point where they aren't usable by August. 30 high ballast boats on a little 180 acre reservoir isn't really all that fun. Beats you to death to ski it, wakeboard, and even inside the boat.

 

We will generally run 3 boats on the lakes most of the time (1 slalom, 2 wake) but will have 4 boats in the fleet. The 4th will be a crossover boat that can run reasonably for either ski or wake if one of the other boats goes down. But given the age of the boats we shouldn't have many problems. The 4th boat will also be available for members to rent and take offsite for those who like to take an occasional trip down to Powell. Given that it won't be used as heavily, I expect it won't be swapped out for new as often.

 

We're trying to build the app in a way that keeps things simple without having too many restrictions on members. It's a bummer to say everyone only get ## turns per season. But it's also a bummer if a handful of members take over and use up all the boat time because it's economically priced and they can afford it. So best to let pricing pressure ensure that people act reasonably. As much as people want to assume that 125 homes will overrun the lakes, that simply isn't the reality. I've monitored many private lakes in the region. A single 10acre slalom lake typically has 15-25 member households. If you pick 10 random times in summer to stop by and hang out for an hour, you might see a boat in the water 10% of the time. Life just gets in the way.

[thager]

.

[escmanaze]

@Taynton

 

Wrong.

 

#9 is clearly the best lot in the whole area, but apparently @Such_a_brett agrees with me as it has a very hefty price premium on it. What a perfect lot though. Somebody who can afford it will get a really good one there.

 

For real man, how you gonna come on ball of spray and say the best lot is on the wake & tube lake?

[cfgunnell]

So many hurdles to hop through! As someone who has a private ski lake (definitely not as nice as what is being submitted here) it is a long process and one that costs millions. Hope it all works as it would be an awesome addition to cache valley.

 

[Taynton]

@escmanaze, I would rather be close to the pool, close to the rec lake (for entertaining) and a short walk to the slalom rather than hearing and watching other people ski at 34 mph all day. For me, having to watch people ski every day while I wait for my slot would be torture. Not to mention I was clearly joking. For real. Man.

[jpwhit]

How deep is the wake lake ?

[Such_a_brett]

@jpwhit the wake lake is 15-17ft deep

[Such_a_brett]

Slalom lake was going to be 6-7ft but we set it at 8ft to keep weed growth more manageable.

[Such_a_brett]

FYI... for those wondering if this concept appeals to people. We just floated out the final layout to our existing reservation list before we start our main marketing push. 47 of the lots are now spoken for. I expect that about 10 of them will drop out later as we hit the build ready phase. Part of the appeal is probably that we are still somewhat underpriced considering that other private lakes in our region are priced 2-3x higher (the most recent one actually 4x higher) than we are with MUCH higher HOA fees.

[Taynton]

@Such_a_brett your going to need minimum 20' deep for a decent surf wake....

[Such_a_brett]

Yeah it's a tradeoff. Digging too deep gets expensive and difficult really fast with a lake this large on flat land. 15ft is the generally accepted minimum to get good quality but not perfect wake. I might be able to push the centerline depth to 20ft though without much difficulty.

[jpwhit]

I asked because I've been doing some controlled testing and what I've found is 25ft is a key depth. Between 15 and 25ft the change in wave is pretty linearly better. After 25ft, the increase is much less significant.

[jpwhit]

That also tells me there is a lot of interaction between the wave and the bottom up to 25ft of depth. Which makes me wonder if you'll have changes in the bottom of the lake over time if you're less than 25ft.

[Such_a_brett]

I appreciate the feedback. I understand the relationship between depth and wake quality. Unfortunately, 25ft is completely unrealistic right now and would cost an extra $3MM. For me, it isn't just about achieving the max wake. It's about rider suitability. If 90% of riders can have a quality ride on it without feeling like they are limited, that is acceptable. I'm not aware of a single private lake in the region with 25ft+ consistent depth, and in fact most of our public waterways here don't have that either, especially late in the season.

[LoopSki]

Just put in one of these for surfing !!

 

[escmanaze]

@Such_a_brett I'm actually impressed you are going all the way to 15-17 feet deep for the wake lake. That's pretty cool.

 

Folks surf Utah lake all day every day and have a great time and there is never a single spot on that lake that gets deeper than 13 feet. Most of the time people are surfing in less than 10 feet.

 

Everybody understands those would be better waves if the water was deeper, but what's life, if not full of tradeoffs.

[Such_a_brett]

Yeah, the only big lake in Northern Utah consistently deeper than 25-30ft is Bear Lake but what comes with the deep water is lots of rough really cold conditions. I've spent a lot of time on Willard Bay which undulates between 15-22ft. There are the large reservoirs like Jordanelle which are deep in the center of the channel but shallow where you find the smooth water, and they get run so low during the summer that depth is only half the problem as you're fighting for space to have fun. Those who live in states with lakes and water everywhere don't really grasp how scarce and overcrowded it has gotten here. But the thing we have going for us is 3 straight months of pretty much nonstop sunshine from mid Jun to mid Sep.

[Such_a_brett]

@LoopSki I've had discussions with American Wave Machines. Their surf pools are fantastic but very expensive. Maybe if I do another lake development down near Silicon Slopes I'll spring for one. It needs a bigger market to draw from.

[jpwhit]

ok, got it on what's typical in Utah. Note to self: don't move to Utah.

 

I guess I'm just spoiled. All our lakes here in NC have plenty of depth. I have absolutely no issue being able to find smooth water with 35-60 feet of depth. My favorite cove for watersports has a large section of deep water where we surf. And then we have our slalom course at the back of the cove after three 90 degree turns from boat traffic that would create rollers. Here's a picture from a recent weekend. I'm at the lake house during the weekends, I ski at a private lake during the week.

 

 

 

 

[ALPJr]

Looks awesome to me @Such_a_brett .

[Such_a_brett]

@jpwhit you guys have MUCH more water than we do. Utah is the second driest state in the nation but is consistently in the top 2 or 3 states for boat sales. That tells you how crowded the public waterways are. I've often been on a local 180 acre reservoir when there are at least 25 other boats on the water with me, and a line of trucks with boats in tow down the street waiting for their turn to get to the ramp.

 

There are some very large lakes, but they are few. I would suggest the best skiing in the nation is morning at Lake Powell Utah though. 80-82 degree glass for miles on end.

[luckyone]

Great stuff , everything you said I like . I recently lived a a private lake Arvin , all know it . Been involved in the sport over 20 years , not a ripper though . With my medical issues I’m happy to drive all day long & enjoy as much as the skiers doing . Couldn’t get along with a few and was driven out , they suck . Rules were only for a few & special shit going on all the time , no private , to boot . Up in the mountains now looking down on that dark gloomy valley. Not all are rippers & there goals may be a little difficult but we are all cut from the same mold ?