New Lake Development... Input Wanted

[DaveD]

@Such_a_brett it looks like you have 18 lots on each side of the slalom lake. That seems like a large number. What are the lots dimensions and will there be minimum size requirements for the houses? I’d hate to see the development look like row houses.

[cfgunnell]

@owennibley & @Such_a_brett

 

I like where this is going! Keep pushing Shupe to get back to cache valley! :).

[Martin1980]

@Such_a_brett Love it! One note on the slalom lake, make sure the turns islands are offset and out of the middle of the lake. For safety you want to go around the turn islands in a clockwise manner and when you complete the turn you should be lined up with the course.

[escmanaze]

@DaveD

 

"I'd hate to see the development look like row houses"

 

Actually I kind of feel the opposite. Here in Utah, if you have big big money and are looking to live on a private waterski lake with great big mansions on it, you actually have quite a few choices in quite a few different locations.

 

What you don't have any of is something that is more affordable than those lakes with a few compromises as a tradeoff. I'm going to guess that those lots along the lake are all in the ballpark of a third of an acre down to a quarter of an acre, shoot maybe some even go as small as a fifth. If so, I think that would be a beautiful balance point for SO many Utah families who have enough money to be willing to pay for something better than the local reservoir, but couldn't ever fathom the concept of the big mansions with boathouses and private docks on private lakes.

 

This demographic is very large in Utah and the model that @Such_a_brett is putting forth would be a perfect in between compromise for people in this scenario. I am really surprised at how good of a pulse I think he has on what the Utah market is currently clamoring for.

 

Obviously, a lake with only a few big mansions on it is really the ultimate dream. But what is being offered here is a much more realistic version of the dream that will appeal to tons of people who plan to never be able to afford a million dollar waterfront mansion.

[escmanaze]

Shoot, y'all are going to think I'm a shill or something getting paid for this, but seriously, I'm not. One more demographic thing that is just perfect here is the crossover capability. The families are legion here in Utah with parents that primarily want to ski and kids that primarily want to surf. The way that this will allow a family to allow each person in the family to get exactly what they want from their lake time is just awesome. So many parents here end up buying a surf boat to make the kids happy and then they never end up skiing ever again. This will allow the parents to continue skiing while also allowing their kids an avenue to surf. So awesome.

[akale15]

@escmanaze your insight on this is very interesting and I much appreciate your comments. I have been extremely interested in the Utah area for quite some time due to the endless opportunities of outdoor activities but despite what appears to be a fairly large skiing community the lack of water availability does pose issues. While I, like others, feel the community aspect with a large number of homes trying to share (2) small lakes seems like an overcrowding issue it does seem to provide more pro's than con's specifically for what I know about the Utah market. I will say though, being from NE Indiana it is awfully hard to fathom spending $190k on a lot for access to 39 acres of water to share with 145 other families but understand that is a harsh reality of the real estate market for our friends to the West.

[escmanaze]

@akale15 Ha ha ha!! Yup, "harsh reality" is definitely the right word. When it comes to waterfront property in the desert, the supply is small and the demand is large. Even non-waterfront property here in Utah has become really expensive to the extent that these prices look really reasonable in comparison to average standard lot prices.

 

As you mention, the prices only look good once you compare them to the alternatives here in Utah.

 

I do also feel that the overcrowding will not be a problem very often. Of course on the 4th of July it's going to be hard to get a turn. Yes, I will admit that. Even an average saturday afternoon might be fairly tough to get very often. But having a professional driver and an app as discussed, especially one that is well thought out as mentioned will go a long way in efficiently getting lots of people a turn, even during the busy times.

 

And again, that option only looks good when you consider the actual real alternatives available here in Utah, and at this general price point, the only alternative at all is to go out to a mountain reservoir that is ridiculously crowded at about 3 acres per boat and quickly realize that the water is so awful that the only thing to do that might even resemble fun is to go tubing. Yuck. I'll take my chances on getting a scheduled slot in an app all day every day.

[Stevie Boy]

Approximately 148 Lots and two Lakes, Oh My Goodness ! Call 911

[Such_a_brett]

@Martin1980

 

That's how they are designed.

[Such_a_brett]

@DaveD

 

There is a high demand for lots that will be purchased but possibly never built on. CCRs say they must landscape according to design guides but don't ever have to build. We estimate at least 25% of lots, and possibly up to 35% will not be built on within the first 10-20 years after purchase. If you look at the layout, you'll notice that the narrowest lots (about 1/4 acre) are staggered between the bigger lots. This is to provide a more open aesthetic to the community as it will typically be the smallest lots that aren't built on. This will absolutely help to prevent an overcrowded tract home type feel.

 

Additionally, there are design criteria in the CCRs and an architectural review committee that ensures 4-sided architecture. We are less concerned about size requirements and more concerned about appropriate style and quality design. Albeit, we won't allow tiny homes so there will be a minimum size.

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze

 

You are exactly correct. The smallest lots are 1/4 acre. The largest are about 3/4 acre, with some of the river front lots getting to 1.5acres. Designed specifically for average lot size of 0.4 acres with ideal design dimensions.

 

How you are describing the Utah market is spot on. There are at least some options for those willing to spend $4-500k+ for the lot. With CCRs that demand a $800k+ home. And then $200-500/month HOA dues and you gotta provide your own boat.

 

The feedback we are getting is that our setup is pretty irresistible. They usually say something at this quality, within 1.5 miles of the main shopping/restaurant district and such a long list of amenities was never going to be within reach here. We are talking doctors, professors, lawyers, professionals, etc. Even an upper middle class family with decent equity in their home can relocate here.

 

The demographic of people willing and able to spend $1.5MM for this neighborhood and $5k/year HOA is very small. The demo of people at $200k for the lot, $75/month HOA, and boats provided is VERY large.

 

And you are exactly right about UT boat owners. Most parents primarily ski, but they don't own a prostar. They own a wakesetter.

[Such_a_brett]

@akale15

 

UT is an outdoorsman paradise. Our location is less than 2 hours from a dozen world class snow ski resorts. The river bordering the property has fantastic fishing. There are endless mountain trails for biking, ATV, snowmobile. World class rock climbing a few miles away up the nearest canyon. Yellowstone, Park City, Moab, Zion, all quick weekend getaways.

 

Add to that, incredibly low unemployment, friendly people, and low crime. It is the best kept secret in the US because a lot of people still consider it fly over country.

[Such_a_brett]

And then Business Insider just went and ranked Logan UT as the #1 metro area in the west to move to post coronavirus. The only city in the entire west to make the top 15 overall ranking. The secret is getting out.

[Martin1980]

@Such_a_brett it is a easy fix to get the turn islands off set properly, makes a big difference in how the lake will drive and ski.

[Stevie Boy]

@Such_a_brett

It seems that you have all the answers, why did you ask in the first place, I am a Water Skier, not a Developer, but there are quite a lot of smaller sites, that have their issues, it would be nice if there was a little bit of passion there, but lets face it, it's all about the money.

Not for me, I would rather travel and ski in a more civilised setting, with people that have passion for our sport.

[Skoot1123]

@Stevie Boy - remember that the title of this thread is “New Lake Development”. @Such_a_brett can correct me, but I think this is more a development that caters to the outdoorsy and adventure + water skier/wakeboarder/tuber etc type than the diehard skier. For the diehard skier, like many of the folks on here, they would have the valid questions you ask. What would be awesome is if this whole community that is developed actually thrives - in contrast to some other lake developments that are only 20 or 30% occupied. One great advantage to this development is that there are lots of options - right next door, so if the lake is booked for the day, at least you can be outside doing something in the sunshine.

 

Great work @Such_a_brett - glad you got the Army Corp involved - they can stop a project VERY quickly.

[LoopSki]

I suggest putting in a boxing ring there too you’re gonna need it! Lol

[Such_a_brett]

@Martin1980

 

The turn islands are already offset as you suggest. Are you suggesting offsetting them even further?

[Such_a_brett]

@Stevie Boy

 

I understand your sentiment. The thing I had to ask myself is why, if recreational waterfront property is by far the most desirable property in the US, do many of the smaller waterski sites fail. After a ton of analysis, I realized that it was precisely because they are targeting a very small niche demographic. So I asked myself, would I ever follow in their footsteps, or would I aim to create something that the masses would be tripping over themselves to become part of. IOW, would I rather have a small exclusive site that struggles to survive, or a large site that sells out of lots within 3 years?

 

I do have a passion for watersports, but I'm not willing to throw capital into a money pit to feed that passion.

 

Regarding why I asked the question... if you read from the beginning of the thread until now, you'll see that this final edition of the project is dramatically different from the original proposal. I didn't have all the answers, and received a ton of value from the comments here. We are getting to the point where we have most of the answers now. What remains are the nuances of what the experience will be like for the residents. How can we best ensure that they will not be battling for boat time. I'm confident that we have that mostly figured out now.

[Martin1980]

@Such_a_brett It is a little hard to see but they don't look offset enough. When you come around the turn island you want to be lined up with the course with no need to make a jog back to center. Many lakes around the country don't have the turn islands offset enough including several in Utah. Properly offset turn islands make the lake longer.

[Such_a_brett]

Thanks for the feedback. They are currently offset about 30ft to the left as you approach them. So a fairly straight setup, but not perfectly lined up as you round the island.

[Such_a_brett]

One question is how narrow can the left channel get. I was trying to keep about 100ft width all the way around.

[Skoot1123]

@Such_a_brett - we have 100’ channels around our islands and that is plenty of room. Our islands are also 100’ diameter so the actual turn is not quite as sharp either. Due to some constraints for us we could not make the turn islands offset enough to drive straight into the course. On a 2000’ lake it makes the setup quick, but we have gotten used to it. If I was setting it up as a community like you though, I would probably consider ensuring your offset is such that you can drive straight into the course from either end.

[Such_a_brett]

Wow. With 100ft diameter turn islands, you'd need a large offset to get it lined up. On ours the island is about 60ft diameter. I could probably shift it another 20ft, but not sure I could go so far as to get it perfectly lined up with the center of the buoys.

[zskibum]

Awesome! Another private lake development in Utah! Better yet in Logan! Go get it! Your smart to get advice and your gettting a lot here! Best of luck to you and I will be sending you good vibes! I’d recommend using a buoy system like they have at Calls Fort. It’s great for the Winters and if you have fluctuations in the water - which you will. Hope to see you digging soon!!

[Stevie Boy]

@Such_a_brett , It would be great if it all works out, but we all get tarred with the same brush, when there is a incident, with such a large demographic, there maybe some undesirables or a few people, a sandwich short of a picnic, will they have registration numbers on their water craft, will they have to attend a course and answer written questions before being issued a permit to operate on the lake, with the caviat, failure to comply, could result in suspension of their permit.

Some weekend warriors just want to have fun, some weekend warriors are a nightmare, you might need trusted wardens onsite to over see things.

My comments are concerns for safety and respect for other residents, every time there is a incident, the ripples travel afar.

 

[Such_a_brett]

No personal watercraft allowed and drivers are provided for the exact reasons you list.

[escmanaze]

@Such_a_brett

With your hired professional drivers, what are you thinking as far as what their season looks like?

 

Obviously you can keep them busy from June 1st through August 31st. And then you can PROBABLY keep them pretty busy through may and September as well. However, for the months of March, April, October, and the beginning of November, the demand will probably be about 10% of what it was during the summer months. Obviously, that isn't enough to keep paying full time drivers just to sit there, but it is enough of your clientele that want to keep riding in drysuits that there will be a lot of unhappy customers if there isn't some program for them to be able to "certify" as a driver for the off-peak season some way some how, maybe even with some special rules of some type.

 

There are a lot of ways to make this situation work out, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what you think will be the way you make it work.

[Martin1980]

@Such_a_brett Going off of what @escmanaze is saying I strongly suggest you find a way for the serious slalom skiers that ski March-November a way to drive. Maybe give the lot owners on the ski lake driving privileges. Also depending on who the hired driver is the serious slalom skiers may not even want that driver driving them. Driving becomes very important as the line shortens and can make or break a slalom set. A good driver willing to work for the hours you will need him/her could be hard to find for what you can likely pay them.

[Such_a_brett]

Our intention right now is to allow a small number of residents to get driver certified. They are most likely to want sets in the shoulder season.

 

There will also probably be a scheduling window during the shoulder season. Something like you gotta schedule at least 3 hours in advance to ensure driver availability. Won't be an issue May 1 to mid Sep as I expect drivers to be on site continually during that time.

[dvskier]

Bear in mind that Utah also has a very active snow ski/board season that takes place between November-April (and beyond for Snowbird). I would suspect that there are drivers available who may also be ski instructors or Ski Patrol who would be delighted to have a job like this. Perhaps a retired guy.

[Such_a_brett]

@dvskier that is a good observation.

[Such_a_brett]

So close now. Hope to be papered by March. Taking lot reservations now. :)

[cfgunnell]

Is my lot reserved? Are you taking a down payments yet?

[Golfguy]

Do you have a web site?

[Such_a_brett]

@Golfguy

 

Will have the website running shortly. Trying to get the virtual rendering and flyover animation completed right now.

[Alberto Soares]

@Such_a_brett - You should consider a good discount for Ballers, you got the best advise/project review possible, and for free. Great job and good luck, I really enjoyed the trip.

[Such_a_brett]

@Alberto Soares that is a good idea.

 

The lakes should be functional late summer this year and I'll get a few of the local guys who've participated here out on the water before it gets cold.

 

The infrastructure will be fully completed and operational early spring 2022. As there will only be a handful of residents living on-site at that time, we will be selling a certain number of household season access passes to non-residents. Given the value of the input here, I'll talk to the partners about hooking up any of the ballers who participated here. Something like giving them access for a season and use fees closer to the resident rate.

 

We'll only be selling access to non-residents probably for the first two seasons. After that, we might already have too many resident households to consider selling to the public.

[kurtis500]

@Such_a_brett This is in Logan? I live in Park City most of the year and during the summer there is a non-stop stream of boats coming through here from Salt Lake to Jordanelle/Rockport/Echo. Moving from Phoenix and boating year round in AZ and the Colorado river I was shocked how many people have boats here. The boat per capita in Utah has to be high. Hopefully you do well.

[Such_a_brett]

@kurtis500

 

I've been told by several sources that for manufacturers like Mastercraft and Malibu, sales for this region are typically 2nd or 3rd highest in the nation.

 

Utah is the 2nd driest state, but that just means we have to create a bunch of reservoirs. Some of our reservoirs are really big and reservoirs tend to be warmer than lakes. Also, the winter and early spring are the highest rainfall with summer being the lowest. Those who live here know that we frequently go for a 3 month stretch with scarce cloud cover and no measurable precipitation. Which also means it is quite hot. And being high elevation, the sun is much stronger here, but there's low humidity. Basically, boating in the UT climate is downright pleasant for about 5 months of the year. If you happen to have a shallow private lake, you can stretch that to 6-7 months.

 

Combine all that with a general cultural affinity for outdoor lifestyle looking for a summer replacement of snow skiing and snowboarding. Also modest cost of living. It's easy to see why boating is so popular here.

 

Thanks for the encouragement.

[OTF]

With that many people having access you may as well build a high rise on each lot. I sincerely hope you do well but way too many people for a guy like me

[escmanaze]

I'm really excited for you man. I can't wait to see you get this up and running. I think you have such a cool concept for Utah families.

[Such_a_brett]

We've officially made it through city council and planning commission. These things are never easy, but this will be great once completed.

[man0seven]

@Such_a_brett

Super excited to see this develop. I recently moved to the valley on the north end and have been skiing/boating my whole life. While I appreciate the space I recently upgraded to, I am very interested in somehow supporting the community.

[escmanaze]

We are all ready to see some of the latest renderings that made it through review!!! Let's see what you have put together?

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze website will be up soon with animated virtual renderings. I've been trying to resist the urge to post raw clips here before the post production work is done. :)

[Such_a_brett]

@man0seven we will likely be opening to the public a small number of family season memberships to the boat club while all lots haven't sold yet. If you're interested, I'll keep you posted.

[escmanaze]

Bump...

 

@Such_a_brett Did you make some good progress over the summer? Any updates for us?

[Such_a_brett]

Hit some delays with the federal regulators and change in administrations. Ultimately had to eliminate 12 lots and redesign the slalom lake. Taking reservations next week and hope to break ground soon.

 

[LoopSki]

I’ll take the lot on the island !