New Lake Development... Input Wanted

[cfgunnell]

@Such_a_brett

 

That is awesome you won't have problems or have to deal with army corp of engineers. We hired most of the construction, but permits etc.

 

I look forward to hearing the process! Good luck.

 

[oldjeep]

If you are paying nearly double for lake lots, one would hope you are not taking 20 year boat loans. Not sure why upkeep on a boat with 400 - 800 hours would be more than fluid and impellers. And yes, much of the 5 hours is cruising at low speed and idling. Skiing and boarding is maybe 1 hour of the time. The insane price of new boats keeps the used market up. Just for grins price out a 2012 vtx.

 

In any event, do you have a line of people looking to buy into this?

[Such_a_brett]

We aren't talking about someone paying $400K extra for a lot here. We are talking about a $450/month increase in their house payment. There are a ton of people able to pay an extra $450/month on their mortgage, but don't have $60K sitting around to pay cash for a boat. I bet less than 20% of boat sales above $20k are cash sales. In any case, opportunity cost is very real. If you pay cash for the boat, you are easily giving up at least 5% annual return on that cash.

 

Coincidentally, yes there is a fair amount of interest in this development already and we haven't even advertised it yet. And our equity partners are very familiar with the 3 nearby private lake communities.

[Such_a_brett]

Hahaha... this boat cost debate reminds me of shopping for a snowblower with my dad several years ago. He has a fairly large driveway with a lot of walks and the snow removal company quoted $130/visit for a 15 minute job. He was outraged because that is $1,000 a season. We went out shopping for a snowblower. The small single stage ones wouldn't be able to handle the load, so he was looking at the $3.5K Honda 2-stage.

 

We get about 7-8 storms a season that justify snow removal. With the snowblower it takes him the better part of 2 hours to remove the snow from a decent storm. Now he spends 15 hours of his own time and has to maintain that machine every year. By the time it "pays for itself" 4 years will have passed and he'll have wasted 60 hours of his own time.

 

After discussing the cost benefit with him, the justification was "I don't want to have to wait my turn if I hired a service".

[Drago]

I'll drive!

[wawaskr]

No course, and full time wake/surf wallies...that would be a living hell.

[Such_a_brett]

@wawaskr I understand your position, but what specifically bothers you about the wake wallies? I'm wondering if many of those things don't exist in a private chartered boat scenario. For example, if you said their large wakes ruin water conditions, that's a non-issue here. Or if you said, drivers don't follow proper boating etiquette. Again a non-issue here.

[Such_a_brett]

Yeah, we were mainly concerned about too many novice drivers. Once we realized the necessity of a charter service, having a course isn't really a problem.

[Such_a_brett]

Right now, I'm trying to navigate the ability to accommodate surf on one lake. It is very expensive and difficult to create a surfable lake... wider, deeper, higher maintenance, etc... It is popular right now, but I think it is absolutely at its peak and people are going to start to lose interest in it.

 

IMO, a lot of surfing popularity comes from that fact that it's the only real option when the water is full of rollers. Everyone I ride with typically has the same routine. Go out super early for the skiers. The slalom riders get the glass. The boat pretty much switches to boarding mid to late morning. By 11am everyone is tired of getting beat to death on rollers and the surf boards and tubes come out for the rest of the day and the boat spends 80% of the time from then on idling.

 

In the end, surfing really is pretty boring, and even more boring for the people in the boat. But I fully acknowledge that it is easy enough and low impact enough to allow just about anyone to do it even in the worst water conditions.

 

Another big problem when trying to run a reasonable schedule is that rides are LONGGGG. A 12 minute set on a ski or board is already tight, but if I'm really pushing I can really use a rest after a hard 12 minute ride on smooth water. I can surf for 30 minutes no problem. A 12 minute set would feel like nothing.

 

I also don't really like the layout concept of differently purposed lakes. People naturally want to boat the lake that they live on. I don't really want to force buyers to choose between living on the ski lake vs the surf lake.

[owennibley]

@Such_a_brett It sounds like you are looking at this project from every possible angle, which is good. I can definitley see the appeal of the resort type ski lake for some people, not really for myself but there is a market out there. My family is from Cache Valley and I lived there up to 3 years ago. It is very isolated community. I just don't think that the little college town Valley could support something so bold at this time. I think, Utah, Salt Lake, or Davis counties could; even Box Elder County possibly. Thats where market research comes into play, so I could be way off. Having family property in the immediate area of where you are proposing this, it would only help increase the surrounding property values. :)

Maybe during the construction periods you could sell memberships to skiers ;) ... in that case sign me up! Me and @cfgunnell are going to be following this closely. It will be interesting to see how it all develops.

[Horton]

@eleeski What is the new thing I read in the news? Something like "it is ok if your facts are wrong as long as they fit your narrative?"

 

I was wanting to sell my lake house so I could buy a house on a different lake.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Sadly, that's been true for a long, long time. Almost every time I've been interviewed for a story, it was crystal clear that the story itself was already written and they were just inserting my quotes where they fit.

 

To be fair, that's exactly how I wrote all my essays for English class. Then again, I became a computer programmer, not a journalist.

[Wayne]

@Such_a_brett in my circle of friends we had an idea that skiing was dying due to the required learning curve (once you get past the expense of buying a boat). Wake boarding is initially easier so it seemed to gain popularity (again a theory). Then surfing might be marginally easier than wake boarding initially. Obviously there is a steeper learning curve to do tricks and get air but compairitively slalom skiing has the steepest learning curve just to get up out of the water.

 

Surfing seems to add a social aspect the others don’t have. The rider and boat crew can interact verbally while you are doing it. At least in our area the socializing while surfing seems to be the catalyst.

 

With that said I don’t see it dying for a while. However for your development why not put in one of the surf pools? Like the ones you are on cruise ships. Seems like it would address the surf enthusiast and reduce lake requirements.

[ToddL]

Interesting thread. Made me think: If I were to develop a lake based community with broad appeal, what would I do?"

 

Initial answer seems to be a 3 lake site:

Lake 1: "No Wake" Recreation - walking trail, feed wildlife, swim, SUP, canoe, small craft (no wake) fishing, etc. small boat ramp, shoreline launch area, etc.

Lake 2: "Wake & Wally" Lake - tubing, wake sports, surfing, etc. Shorelines fortified accordingly. Fixed docs/marina, etc. Maybe limit concurrent boats per lake size.

Lake 3: "Competition Lake" - No wake sports, no wallys, traditional 3-ev with ramp, course, room to trick etc. Inboards only, etc. 1 at a time, etc.

 

Houses on the outside of Lake 1 are for quiet. Houses between lakes 1&2 are fishing folks, rec ski folks. Houses between lakes 2&3 are the wake/wallys. Houses on the outside of Lake 3 are for the course/3EV skiers. Specifying home site to usage model helps with noise complaints and proximity to shared interest.

 

All residents can use all 3, each per the usage rules. Not sure about community vs personal boats. Possibly some combination of both. Personal boats stored at home sites, community boats at lake site. Option for high frequent use residence to lease another lake site boat option.

 

Anyways, just a initial brainstorm. Probably already over thinking this, or under thinking it as well. LOL.

 

 

[Such_a_brett]

@owennibley

 

Yeah I chatted with @cfgunnell and he mentioned both of you have property nearby.

 

I hear what you are saying about the demographics of this area, but I think you are significantly underestimating the valley. It is growing VERY rapidly, and isn't as much of a college town anymore. Price and marketing is going to be key in this project for sure. If we were pricing lots in the $300-400s like all the other private lakes in the state, I think it might take more than 10-12 years for full absorption. But we've spoken to several brokers and the message has been consistent across all of them. "Keep your average waterfront lot price below $200K and they will sell." We are anticipating about 5-6 years for full absorption of the SFR lots at a $185K average price. Might need to wholesale a dozen lots or so to volume builders to get vertical development going. Once the development goes vertical, lot prices hold solid in a normal market. I'm a licensed B100 builder, so we have the option of taking matters into our own hands if vertical development doesn't move quickly enough.

 

Will likely have a waiting list on the MFR once they get built.

 

I realize that Cache County isn't nearly the size of SLC, Davis, Utah, and Weber, but we do get a fair draw from Davis and Weber. Our location is more convenient than Last Chance, SunTen, and Bear Hollow. The only lakes with a better location currently are Stillwater and they are sold out at nearly double the price. Also, none of these locations has the amenities we are offering and all of them have higher HOA fees.

[Such_a_brett]

@mjnelson

 

You and @scotchipman are working on me pretty good to do one in SL Valley or Utah Valley. Obviously there are some advantages there. I'm considering a project down there, but would likely be more interested in a larger project with 2 boat lakes, a no-wake/fishing lake, and an AWM wave lake. I need to be close enough to the main metro areas to be connected, but land must be cheap still. Also, water isn't as cheap there, so I'd need water rights. @scotchipman pointed me toward a sod farm that looks interesting.

[Such_a_brett]

@Wayne You bring up an interesting point. I generally don't like the "flowrider" type surf-in-place machines. But that is mainly because they don't resemble real surfing at all. OTOH, they actually do have a strong resemblance to wakesurfing. I do like the idea of adding a 2-acre wave lake like at BSR surf ranch, but it changes the dynamic of the community. There is no way to justify the many millions those cost without opening it to the public and charging $60/hr.

[Such_a_brett]

@owennibley @cfgunnell

 

Since you both were watching this project with interest, I'll tell you that unfortunately I couldn't get all the moving parts together for that specific piece of land in Nibley. The more I worked on it, the more convinced I was that it would've worked out great on that site. The problem was that I had to bring 3 different land owners together for the deal. One was actively selling the biggest piece, and the other 2 were wanting to sell in the next 2-5 years, but not eager right now. The one actively marketing his property just got an offer a month ago for about $3k less per acre than we were willing to pay and he took it. So that site is out now.

 

We have three new prospective spots now.

1 -- Wellsville- This site is great in terms of layout, access, and utilities. I have big reservations regarding likely soil type and distance from the main city. The numbers only work for me if this is done as a resort style and I'm not sure I can market 200+ class A rental units out in the rural area 10 miles from the city.

2-- Young Ward- This site is great in terms of cost and location. Very quiet and serene with the right soil type, but with that comes the off-grid problems. We would have to run about 1 mile of paved county road to get to it. We can get power easy enough, but would have to do on-site wastewater treatment and community propane. The discounted price of the land makes the road doable, but the wastewater is expensive. I think the biggest problem though is the propane.

3-- Logan City- There is a pretty great piece actually in Logan City limits. The layout I've drafted would create a pretty amazing community. It isn't on the market, but I know the owner and we are waiting on the appraisal to make sure the numbers work. The good things here are proximity (2 miles from city center and about 1 mile from food/retail districts. Utilities are already there so no wastewater, wells, or propane to worry about. Abundant water!!! In fact, I think the land should be discounted because technically this land is marshland. Any other developer would have to truck in huge amounts of fill, but fortunately for us, we'll have 250,000 yards coming out of the lakes. The downsides are likely that land will be higher because of proximity. Also, one short edge of the property is bordered by a main arterial roadway with accompanying road noise. I think I've got a way around that. Also, this property is quite large (about 150 acres) which makes the project larger. But that might work out advantageous because we'll be able to do a 3rd smaller wakeless lake, and we'll end up with a greater proportion of waterfront properties.

[Such_a_brett]

Here is a very rough draft layout of the new concept to fit one of the prospective locations. Feedback very welcome. Obviously this is a bit different direction than the original concept. This one actually has a designated comp level ski lake and a much larger play lake for the big wake crowd. I've also added a no-wake pond with a big island park in the middle. If I like the concept there is room for one more of those on the other side of the comp lake. Given that this layout is bordered 50% (approx 1.5 miles) by natural river, there are actually very few lots or condos that won't be backed either by lake or river. The river is about 30-50' wide and 2-6' deep depending on runoff. It's very beautiful lined with mature willows; includes good fishing (cutthroat, brown, and rainbow trout).

 

 

[Dockoelboto]

You have had many many helpful comments so far. I don't think I can add much but just to add my 2c.

 

Depth: yes, a wake/surf boat can handle 10ft deep water but just barely. Those massive boats need deeper water, if that is your target audience for one of the lakes, make one deeper. Plus consider noise. I live on a private competition lake, it is quite and peaceful. Wake/surf boats typically come with massive speakers. There is definitely a different vibe with the surf crowd, not a bad one but it definitely is more social. That can mean way more noise. People living by that may not be too happy. The large waves and shore erosion is a big issue as well. We have rocks around the more sensitive areas of our lake to limit this, we also have a no ballast rule and even with that, we still get some erosion. The wake lake will need to be really set up to deal with those waves.

 

Access/time on water: Big issue. I know at least initially it wasn't meant to be private but if people are paying big money to buy/build they will want access. If it is open to the public, that will limit access. Our set up is if you are an owner you get access. We don't have a community boat, everyone who skis has their own. We share and ride together but we also take turns. I've never waited long and frankly sometimes waiting is good. We have an HOA that is reasonable and covers maintaining/filling the lake and the grounds. We don't have to pay extra per set. Owners are allowed to build a dock in accordance with the CCRs. Plus there are boat houses if you choose and a marina where you can put a lift. Basically you can do whatever you want as long as it follows the rules. This works great in a private setting. Much harder to deal with in a public setting. Living on a competition lake is amazing, if it is done right. I love the idea of opening it up to more people but it isn't easy to make that work.

 

GOOD LUCK!

[Such_a_brett]

@Dockoelboto thanks for the feedback.

 

In the plan above, the wake lake would be 15ft deep. Some have suggested 20ft, but I can't bring myself to dig it that far down for what would likely be a mostly unnoticed benefit. The width of the lake is increased to allow for a 16:1 slope further below and above the waterline to aid in erosion control. The turns at the ends will be more aggressively protected.

 

Point of clarification... this is not meant to be a public community. It might not be gated, but access will absolutely be limited to residents. Given the density of residents, we pretty have no choice but to do community boats with paid drivers. This is not like other communities in the region where people have paid an extra $400k for the lot and private dock and a few hundred a month in HOA to have unlimited access. Residents here will be paying roughly an extra $80k for the lot on average and about $55/month HOA instead of the typical $20/month. To be fair, it would be completely unreasonable to pay a meager $80k extra for the lot and $420 extra per year in HOA and expect to have this type of exclusive watersport experience without having to share or wait in line.

 

Also, it has been discussed above, but you actually do have to pay extra per set. It's your boat payment, maintenance, fuel, etc. You are probably like everyone else and don't really itemize those as a per-set cost. I know I never had until doing the calcs for this project.

[BraceMaker]

Something to watch for as you make the lakes deeper/wider is to make sure there is still good set backs and yards between them and the lakes or people won't like to move there.

[rimodico]

In my experience driving fully loaded wakesurf boats is that turning them is extremely difficult under heavy ballast load (Malibu 22MXZ & Nautique GS22) and they require a big radius to complete an 180 turn. Check a few to define optimal turn radius at the extremes of your wake lake. Best of luck!

[Such_a_brett]

@BraceMaker

 

The lots are intended to be 140' deep. Rear setbacks will be 50ft and 10-15ft along the shoreline will be sand at a 16:1 slope.

[Such_a_brett]

@rimodico

 

The turn area at the extremes of the wake lake are 280ft diameter.

[skimtb]

Suggest getting some turn diameter info from a few surf / wake guys to confirm that is ok.

Also plan on ridiculous erosion protection at those ends, also on the inside turn of the wake lake.

[Such_a_brett]

Yeah thanks, I'll look into it. We can open those ends up another 50ft if needed. The one at the right extreme we are thinking of opening it even further because we have extra land there. Doing that will enable us to run 2 boats at a time whenever it is tubing or if surfers agree to share. That essentially creates the equivalent of a 4 lake setup.

 

The community is bigger than before, now 155 single family homes and 250 condos. But the ability to run 3 boats at a time and a designated no-wake lake will help a lot in handling the demand.

[Such_a_brett]

In terms of shore protection at the turns, we've always anticipated using large cobble at those locations. We will have a lot of it coming out of the river sections that we have to straighten and clean up.

[cfgunnell]

Two boats at a time... isn’t this now defeating the purpose of having a private lake?

[Such_a_brett]

@cfgunnell

 

That lake is pretty much the size of two separate lakes connected at the end into a V shape. I tried to separate them, but the land is just a bit too cramped. Anyway, when I talk about 2 boats at a time, I'm talking about rider preference and specifically when tubing. Internally we have an expertise in software development. We plan on building a scheduling system that will allow tubers and surfers the option of sharing the lake with a second boat for a lower use charge. With the lake that size and configuration I don't think I would mind at all if another boat was on the water while I surfed, especially if driven by a professional following proper etiquette. On the rare occasions that I would be tubing, a second boat creating some chop would be considered a benefit.

 

OTOH, a second boat while wakeboarding or skiing? Forget about it!

[coach3]

make one lake recreational/wakeboard and the other slalom. otherwise no slalom skier would be interested!

[Such_a_brett]

@coach3

 

That's exactly what we've done. There already is a separate slalom lake. 2000ft long, 220ft wide, 6ft deep with turn islands and a buoy course.

[jimbrake]

@Such_a_brett - where is the jump going?

[BraceMaker]

What was the source for drivers going to be? Obviously if you have some form of booking system you could shift your staff based on who's going to be home - but still this seems like a real problem.

 

During the week I mostly ski before 7 AM and after 7 PM - water conditions yes but also I work, I need to be off the boat and showered to get to the office. If it were close to my home I would probably try to grab lunch sets. So will you plan on having AM ski sets? PM ski sets?

 

Closed times of day? to run 2-3 boats during peak times in summer when people are home you're going to get people who want to take the AM set and PM set and then go to work and their family around wanting to take mid day sets.

 

I've worked at a summer camp before and will tell you it is impossible to drive for hours at a time with out good breaks. Usually that meant either only pulling watersports for a few hours a day or if you were going longer having about 6 people rotating to keep the boat going during the day.

 

It gets hot people get dehydrated/nauseous particularly if you have new skiers.

 

So it sounds like you're going to need a whole crew of pretty trustworthy people to provide these sets over long hours day after day.

 

Compare this to something like a ski school and it starts sounding like a Bennetts type place where you have boat crews rotating so what would you need 8-12 people on to run 3 boats all day?

 

[Such_a_brett]

@jimbrake that is the one element that I haven't pushed for. I don't see a big demand for it relative to how annoying it is to plan for. Maybe I'm wrong though. We could possible put one on the recreational lake.

[escmanaze]

@Such_a_brett Even though I hang on BOS endlessly, somehow, I missed the whole first half of this thread. I have now read the whole thing. Wow. Lots. I feel like I'm fairly qualified to speak on the topic. I grew up in Farmington as a typical stern drive recreational skier but have since become much more of a buoy chaser in the last 7 years now down in Draper doing all my skiing at Utah Lake. Most of my old friends, though, are still very much the recreational folks that are exactly your target market. Here are a few thoughts on the topic of your proposals.

 

1. Judging by the posts, this last summer seems to have maybe fixed your attitude, but especially on all the posts last winter, I really think you are really underestimating the demand and popularity for surfing and I think you are really overestimating the demand and popularity for wakeboarding. I really think your big recreational lake will get 5 surfers for every boarder, and no, it's not a fad. those numbers won't suddenly reverse back. Whether you get it or not, whether you like it or not, surfing is here to stay. It is exactly what most people want out of their boating these days. It's not just something to do when the water gets bad.

 

2. 10 feet is absolutely deep enough for 95% of surfers who won't know any better. Yes, 20 feet is definitely better and the wave will be better. But very few parts of Utah Lake are deeper than 10 feet and yet surfing is 90% of what goes on out there. Deeper is better, but if I'm marketing to the masses, and not to the extreme folks, and all I can get is 10 feet, I wouldn't let that stop me. I see your new version is 15 feet. Sweet. Even better.

 

3. You are here on BallofSpray. This is where you find guys who tell you they adjusted their fin two thousandths of an inch and the ski feels like a whole new ski!!!! Speaking of extreme folks, this is definitely where you find them. So it's certainly wise for you to come here and put your ideas out there and see if you can still defend them, but definitely keep in mind that most of the folks on here live in a completely different world and have no clue what the average recreational utah family skier group looks like. @Than_Bogan talks about the people who are different than him, and he's smart to point it out. Definitely, your target market here in Utah is VERY different than Than in relation to what they are looking for with their lake time. Living here, and having been, in the past, part of your target demographic, I think you have a heck of an idea on your hands that is aimed directly at the right people. Except being in Logan. You are certainly putting more faith in the Logan market than I would want to, but I'm probably not nearly as familiar with cache valley as you are.

 

4. I like your new design LOTS more than the old one. Partially because it has a comp ski lake on it. I do still think you have a turnaround problem on your hands. Big boats want big lakes. It might be worth your time to take a big wake boat and set up your own little course somewhere and see if you can surf through it or if you can wakeboard through it. Then see if beginners can surf or wakeboard through it. It really needs to be easy enough for beginners. You could validate your design easily enough by setting up some stuff out on Willard Bay or something.

 

5. I love having a tiny non-powered lake nearby. Seemed like a shame to set a full size wake apart for a few days. This is way better to have the SUP folks on a different lake altogether.

 

6. I wonder if you couldn't find some way to turn your upside down v shape into more of a triangle kind of shape. This could help with the turnaround problems and you could possibly develop some kind of rotational pattern for potentially two boats at a time. Go to Blackfoot and visit Jensen Grove Reservoir on the 4th of July and watch them all go around and around in a counterclockwise pattern with like 12 boats on 55 acres. I really suspect you will be happier if your wake lake isn't shaped long and skinny like a ski lake. Wider and fatter more like a blob seems to be the way to go for average joe's doing a wake thing. From the sounds of it, I would gather that you are primarily a wakeboarder of intermediate to advanced level. Long and skinny would work fine for you. But surfers and beginners don't want long and skinny...I think.

 

Good Luck. It could turn out really cool. I look forward to hearing more about it.

[Such_a_brett]

@BraceMaker

 

These are all good questions. Yes we've planned on at least 3-4 "full time" drivers and then 3-4 part timers. Obviously, "full time" doesn't mean that someone is driving solid 9am-5pm. We fully recognize that the sophistication of our software platform is paramount. Fortunately, we have extensive expertise in software and predictive analytics. So it isn't that difficult for us to build a scheduling system around predicted usage patterns.

 

Concept is that the boat drivers will be a separate charter company with a defined base compensation package. Facilities and boats will be paid for by the HOA. Drivers will also make a commission per session. I don't think that drivers will be a big problem.

[escmanaze]

Maybe something like this?

 

 

 

It puts just a big blog triangle in the middle. You could go with or without the little triangle park in the middle. Certainly for tubing it would be better off without it.

 

All your big buildings and stuff could be on the top left - so that they are "waterfront" you could change the SUP lake to just have little fingers that weave in and out of some properties up there or something. Speaking of which, if you are going as deep as you say and running as smooth of a shoreline as you say, then what about running a border of some type around the edge of the big lake and the SUPs, Kayaks, canoes are allowed in the shallow part of the big lake? Again, you could check out Jensen Grove for a model of this concept. Then you could connect the tiny SUP lake with the big lake if you wanted as well.

 

Maybe that triangle in the big lake - if it exists could have a big huge tall condo building as the centerpiece? A little bridge to get you over there? Just an idea - probably crazy.

 

This also puts the waterskiers off on the extreme edge of the property where they want to be - away from everybody. also, a 2,000 foot slalom lake is ok and doable, but 2,300 like stillwater is even way better.

 

All my ideas are eating up your usable square footage to sell with water that you can't sell. Sorry.

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze

 

I really appreciate your feedback. It's nice to hear from people who understand the Utah market. There are a lot of people with abundant waterfront properties who don't understand what it's like in places where there is virtually no such thing as waterfront. And a day out on the water is primarily spent cruising through the chop of a small reservoir looking for a little patch that resembles smooth water.

 

You are correct that my attitude has changed quite a bit. I did a lot of market research and realized that I was a victim of the crowd that I boat with. You are absolutely correct. 70% of the broader demo now primarily surfs. As you can see from the new concept, there is a much bigger emphasis on a rec lake suitable for the big wake and tubing demo. As you suggest, within the Utah market that is absolutely the demo I'm targeting with this development.

 

Ironically, even though it is the smallest and easiest to build, the no-wake lake will probably end up getting the most action. We plan to install a zero entry beach on it for the kids to play.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think I can work out a bigger more open lake of the necessary size. I'm already trying to work my way through some tricky easement issues with the land. I can likely open up the turns quite a bit though. I understand your sentiments on the Cache Valley market. That's the whole reason for this concept. I need the amenities to draw the proper demo. Then I need the density to keep it within the price range of the valley. Keep in mind that the condo units will rent for prices very similar to the other large resort type communities here. Maybe an extra $100-150/month. A bit more than 1/2 of the single family lots will be priced about $20-35k higher than a typical subdivision. The other half will be closer to $70-100K higher. Target HOA fees will be about $35/month higher than a typical subdivision.

 

When you consider that typical residents will be paying $100-400 per month on their mortgage. It would seem people are getting a lot of value for the money.

[cfgunnell]

As a current resident of cache valley who has been here for years and has their own private lake in the valley. I look forward to watching this unfold. I think the idea is great however... cache valley is a very hard market. Especially when you have abundant lakes around from cutler, Hyrum, benson, newton, twin lakes, Glendale etc. etc. I don't know if the demand is going to be there. We have two owners in our lake and a few people that pay a rate VERY VERY less than what you are asking to use it. I think the idea is great and it would be a great addition to the valley if you can get it to work. The season is very short up here (as im sure you know) and the die hards that want to ski still can ski glass because we get up early (before work) or when its cold. It would be amazing and if it happens I would love to come check it out! I know a couple other private lakes that sell memberships (weekday memberships, weekend memberships before 10 etc. etc.) that could possible keep your monthly fee down to supplement those types of add ons around the valley. Interested to hear where this is going or purposed. Only place I can think of would be north of the city dump between benson and young ward and west of 10th west. The mosquitos off the bear are terrible!

[Such_a_brett]

@cfgunnell

 

I totally understand your sentiments about Cache Valley. I've lived here my whole life and been involved in real estate here for a decade or so. If it helps, my R/E brokers are actually suggesting that I'm underestimating the demand. My perspective is that selling the lots won't be difficult. The hardest part is going to be building class-A condos without pricing them out of the market.

 

I commend you for the perseverance of building your lake. I'm sure that was quite a project. If I remember correctly, you had topography in your favor up north. There are some key differences with this project and we are targeting a different demo. Everyone I know who has built a lake is just like you. Team up with a couple like-minded friends to split the financial burden and allow as few users as possible to pay for reasonable maintenance. Land can be cheap because you can be 10-20 minutes outside the city. Amenities can be minimal and economical because your goal is smooth water. That is an awesome way to go, if you can do it.

 

I've recognized that there is a massive push toward shared amenities in real estate within modern family and community dynamics. But unlike your private oasis, our target demo has certain requirements. They need proximity to the city but also isolated serenity. They want the activity right at their fingertips; they can ski for 15-30 minutes without worrying about the equipment. They want perfect conditions during the short period they can fit into their schedule but they want someone else to maintain the lakes in pristine condition. They want other amenities with the lakes; pools, spa, gym, clubhouse, tennis, pickleball, fishing, bike/running path, hockey/ice skating, etc...

 

Doing this as a mixed use resort community allows me to address all of those requirements at a reasonable cost. The proximity requirement has been the most difficult. I'll share the location once I have the owners under contract. I can tell you it isn't on the bear river or anywhere between Young Ward and Benson. As you suggest, the mosquitos are terrible out in the marshland and it's also too far from the city commercial hubs. Our requirements are to be less than 1.5 miles from either the south or north hubs. South is better so we can draw buyers from out of the valley easier. It also needs to have water, sewer, and gas. Preferably it is annexed so we have municipal road maintenance and snow removal. That is tricky because annexed raw land within 1 mile of the south walmart is about $200k-1MM per acre. Go 2 miles further and it is $20-40k per acre, but doesn't have the utilities.

 

Your point is well taken about your lake members paying less than what I'm suggesting. But they must purchase their own boat with a truck/trailer to pull it. Drive, store, and maintain it themselves, supply their own gas, etc. What I'm building is much more like a country club membership. Purchase of a lot/condo gets you membership. You can view the premium on the lot as the club initiation fee (except that you actually own an appreciating R/E asset). Monthly club fee is about $40. Boat usage fee is about $40/hour plus gas and driver fee. All other amenities included at no additional cost.

 

I'm guessing that if one of your typical members with a 1-2 year old comp level boat were to tally up total net costs over 10 years, it would come out significantly higher than one of our community residents over the same period (assuming similar amount of ski time). That's just the benefit of shared amenities. Your members have the benefit of exclusivity- no waiting in line. Our members have the benefit of lower cost and more amenities. Just a different demographic.

[Such_a_brett]

As things always go with larger projects, we've run into another snag. Land owners figured out a sweetheart deal allowing them to get paid out a couple million by a conservation society to place a conservation easement along the river that unfortunately takes up 45% of the land from my proposed layout. Now I've got 2 choices.

 

1- Buy out the conservation easement for a couple million and follow the original 160 acre plan.

2- Buy 20 more acres of neighboring land. Leave the easement in place and acquire it for relative pennies as it is now unfit for development. Then work the easement into the layout in the most desirable manner possible. In this case, the project is now 180 acres but has 25% fewer (albeit larger) lots, as illustrated below.

 

 

For perspective, the comp lake is still the same as before. The no-wake lake is much larger at the bottom right. The big wake lake is also much larger (2300' length and about 27 acres total size). The big lake is now very suitable for surf and tube and I've taken the advice and enlarged the small turn end to 550ft diameter for surfers. Obviously the larger turn end is about 1,200ft width.

 

The light green is the conservation easement that has been incorporated into the backyards of the river properties, which are now 1-3 acres each in size.

 

Open to thoughts.

[jimski]

I like it

[owennibley]

@Such_a_brett Looks like you've been busy! I think the Nibley location would've been a great place for a slalom lake (I definitely would've liked to ski it!), but maybe not for a resort type club like you are planning. Its not hard to plot out where your new location would be as I used to live less than 1 mile from it. The location is prime in my opinion: close to the highway, on the southern side of the Valley, great views of the Wellsvilles, golf course, shopping, etc. easily accessible.

 

I personally have mixed feelings for this project. Having a comp slalom lake that close to the highway would definitely promote the sport more. It would show a lot of people how much fun skiing can be or at least introduce them to the sport. On the other hand, I hate to see open agriculture land developed and have even more people move into an already overcrowded valley. I was just there this past weekend and my anxiety kicked in full force.... it was so claustrophobic with the traffic. Only 1 way out to get out of the south end of the valley and 1 way west. I know as a kid we would shoot trap out at our Nibley property.... now homes all the way around the property. I know I can't stop development but still sad to see.

 

Another aspect that I can't wrap my head around: Is there enough of a market in the Valley to draw 150+ families into this development. I don't feel that there is. I believe you said your target buyers are people who want smooth water, doesn't want to deal with owning boats, hardcore water sports, etc. That basically describes me so, this is how I would approach it:

 

I am going to pay an extra 60K (average 20-100k) just for a lot. Then I'm sure there will be a minimum sqft home requirement... my guess 3,000sqft. At $150/sqft that puts the home at 450k without the lot. So, not sure on the lot price but lets go with 150k for the lot. So, 150k + 450k = 600k. ~2,500 mortgage. 2500*12=$30,000. Pretty expensive for Logan.

 

Now HOA fees. 35 more than a typical subdivision. My buddy pays 75 for his HOA, lets say another $100/month. 100*12=$1,200/yr

 

Now your monthly club fee of $40/month. 40*12=$480/yr

 

Now your per use fee of the boat(40/hr) + gas(3/gal) + boat driver(20/hr?). I did 70 sets this year. lets say 30 minutes per set plus 2 gallons of fuel @3.00 per set. (35hrs*40) + (70*2*3) + (35 * 20) =$2,520/yr

 

$30,000 home/yr

$1,200 HOA

$480 club fee

$2,520 useage

-------

$34,200/yr not including taxes, cars, food, electricity, etc.

 

Now, throw in the fact that I am now sharing my lake time with 150+homes and 250+ condos. It will be like waiting in line at DisneyLand, especially during the times most people can ski, before and after work. Now, throw in that I can only boat from June-September because its so damn cold up there. All that extra dough for 4 months of skiing?

 

Median income of Cache Valley is 50k ish a year. (https://www.bestplaces.net/economy/county/utah/cache)

 

There are some very affluent families in Cache Valley but I cannot see 150+ families in the Cache Valley proximity that are able do this setup. The families that can afford this type of resort or club already have a 5000+ sqft home with plenty of garage space for their G23's along with a house boat at Lake Powell and 20 other different hobbies that take time away from the lake. Cache Valley is also 90 minutes from SLC, not a lot of people would want to commute that distance.

 

I have made a ton of assumptions on my calculations but I think I am in the ballpark, at least close enough to tell me that I could never afford this type of setup even with my income at nearly double the median for the area.

 

It seems Davis and Weber counties have a much more affluent demographic that would be attracted to this setup. It would be a hard sell in isolated Cache Valley.

[Such_a_brett]

@owennibley

 

I really appreciate the feedback. I agree with you that the current location under consideration is great. It's a fascinating experience right there. One moment you are at the junction of the 2 main arterial highways that run through the city. Then you turn onto the property and suddenly you are in a secluded mountain retreat. Your sightline is occupied by a wrapping river with mature 50ft willows, and the steep Wellsville mountains seem to tower over the top of them. Having lived here my whole life, I know that the mountains are about 5 miles away, but that's not the perception. As you suggest, everything you would want close to your home for convenience is within 1 mile, and commuting to work along the Wasatch Front is easy from here. It's funny, my brother worked near the airport and commuted from Logan for a year (about 60min commute). Then they moved to SL Valley to be closer, but chose Daybreak because prices were too steep elsewhere. His commute was still 50-55min depending on traffic. In the end they moved back to Logan and he commutes from here.

 

I totally understand what you are saying about developing beautiful ag land. But the reality is that if I don't do this project, there is a 99% probability that another developer is going to do a mixed use R6 (6 homes per acre) and industrial park along the highway. Your claustrophobic response is triggered by the rapid growth of the city. Logan metro area is consistently in the top 5% fastest growing in the nation and is a popular location for second homes for people from Cali, Vegas, and Pheonix. Massive home shortage right now.

 

I appreciate the critique. I like to make sure that I'm considering everything. However, it seems like we're getting our wires crossed a bit on the numbers and concept. Let's use the most recent layout for density as it is the most probable outcome. 112 single family lots and 200-ish condos. With the proposed setup at that density, I think the lakes will be about 50% full. I think you're being a bit unfair to Logan on climate. It's absolutely colder during the winter (hockey on the lakes no problem), but the spring and fall boating months are only about 3-5deg cooler than SLC. On private ski lakes the water is warmer so we start skiing about mid April when daytime highs exceed 60F and stop about mid October. So about 6 month season give or take a couple weeks depending on the year.

 

When I said HOA $35 more than typical, it was in reference to most high-end developments on the east benches that have a $20 monthly HOA. We are assuming $55-60 total depending on density. Let's say $60 for this discussion. About $40 of that would be allocated to lake and boat. That was the monthly "club fee" I was talking about. There is no additional $40 fee.

 

Your boat usage is about the same as mine each year. Assuming your 70 sets of 30min (would actually be 140 sets of 15 min). That's about $2800-3000/year everything included at our proposed price. I've run the numbers many times whenever I wanna buy a new boat and I can't ever get it to come under $5-6k per year. So I sold the truck and currently we just rent at about $700/day 6 or 7 times a summer. No boat to worry about. I would love to get a luxury boat experience for less than $3k per year hassle free. You know what they say, "if it flies or floats, rent it!"

 

Regarding homes and buyers... as of this year, the entire valley has a median income of $62k currently and an average income of $76k. But our single family target demo isn't buyers in their 30s. Our target is 40-65yo where the net worth is higher and median income is $78k and average income is $90k+. The condos have a broader age demo (25-75) but they will fill up no problem at proposed rents.

 

Home sizes will be allowed to be modest. Having run a design/build firm, we are more concerned with good 4-sided architecture with appropriate styling than we are about size. Also some of the lots are just 1/4 acre, so we can't insist on huge homes. We will likely have a 1,500sf minimum above ground, with the ground level needing to be at least 1,200sf on any 1.5 or 2 story home. For perspective, a lowest end 'step up' home (the home after your starter home or condo) in a nice development here is about $300k not including the lot. I haven't built a home for a client under $350k since 2009. Typical 0.3-0.5acre lots are $85-110k in the good developments and they are selling like crazy. So the most popular new home demo in the valley is about $400-475k. The same home in our development would be $460-535k. I don't see that as a big deterrent. Every client I've consulted in the last 12 months has had a build budget of $500k+. All of them are rolling at least $100-200k equity from their current home.

 

It's true that Weber and Davis counties have higher average incomes (about 20-30% higher) but the lakeside lots in those areas are selling for 2-3x what we'll be charging. Also, those cities are only 35-50 minutes from this location. The south end of the valley gets a lot of buyers from there. For perspective, Bear Hollow Lakes and Last Chance Lakes are both the same distance from the big metro areas as we are, but sold out all their lots at $400k+ despite both being located in the middle of nowhere, no municipal utilities, with much higher HOA and fewer amenities. Also, I know for a fact that a few of the buyers at Stillwater Lakes live in Utah County, which is the same drive as here to SLC. They also paid 2x what we'll be charging, have higher HOA and fewer amenities.

 

I think that at least 30% of our lots will be purchased without the intention to build on them. Our CCRs will require full professional landscaping within 12 months but no requirement to build.

[escmanaze]

I love it!! Actually I sat down last night and started drawing up something a lot like this with one big wake lake over there to the left just like you show it here. I just wasn't seeing much value in the concept of having it in a V shape.

 

If I was up in Logan, I would totally be right on your list of folks wanting to buy the lot toward the bottom left of the waterski lake.

 

Unfortunately, I'm down in Salt Lake County. That's still my main concern - just not enough folks like me up in Cache. But I suppose it really only takes a few to fill a place like this. And I do see value in the model of keeping it a small premium on the lot and then having folks pay for the boat as they go. I really think that's a winning model for a lot of people...once they take some time and think about it.

 

Here's to wishing I lived in Logan. Keep up the good work. I really think you're on to something really good here.

[escmanaze]

Also, one more thing: Especially with your slalom lake going in there, I think you can expect to have folks like me showing up who own drysuits and really want/expect to use them. So I want to go ski on March 10th or November 1st, but it obviously isn't reasonable at all to expect the charter company to be sitting out there waiting for me. Maybe you could build in some contingency plan for the 2%-5% of folks who are really hardcore that they can go through an EXTENSIVE training and qualification plan to be able to list themselves in the app as the driver once the temps average less than 80 degrees or so. At that rate maybe they could even drive for a couple neighbors as well or something.

 

And speaking of rough Logan winters impeding on our skiing , let's try to make lemons out of lemonade. Maybe take at least the shoreline, or even the whole lake if the ice is thick enough and run a snowmobile over it with the little groomer attachment behind it so that people can go out and do cross country skiing and fat tire snowbiking on the "public lands" when they are frozen over.

 

https://www.snowgroomers.net/path-master/

 

 

[Such_a_brett]

@escmanaze

 

It's nice to hear that I seam to be going down a design path that is more appropriate for the target demo. I love that big lake now. I also think the business model is a winner. I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong. But the excercise of defending it to people here is very helpful. You are more than welcome to buy a little 1/4 acre piece just as a family getaway spot. :D

 

I get that some riders are pretty hardcore. Depending on insurance we might be able to work out a couple designated resident drivers for early/late season.

 

You're winter ideas are right along the lines of what I was thinking. Definitely there will be an ice skating area and hockey rink. The big lake is large enough to pull tubers behind snowmobiles once the the ice exceeds 5". That groomer for a snow biking trail is pretty cool.

 

This brings up an interesting question. What does everyone think about lights on the lakes? Some of the other lakes have them.

[escmanaze]

So on the business model being a winner - I do still have one question left. I understand a home owner paying a little premium for being on the lake and paying a higher HOA for being on the lake. However - I'm a little worried about your condos/apartments.

 

Even if they were condos, I could see people paying more for them because of the lake and the amenities. I've witnessed it first hand living at Ivory Ridge in Lehi.

 

However, with them being just apartments that folks just rent with no possibility of owning, is there still a chance that people will pay more each month in rent in order to get what they are getting? Maybe this is just part of the next generation below me and I just don't get it. It seems like there are lots of these types of folks in SLC, but even Ogden and Provo don't seem to have a ton of them, let alone Logan.

 

I certainly don't want to tell you this market doesn't exist, because I'm frankly not really in tune with the folks who would constitute it, but I'm having a hard time imagining a ton of them up in Logan. It probably exists and I'm just oblivious, but in the spirit of you "defending your ideas" here on the forum, I would love to hear what you may know about this target demo.

[escmanaze]

Lights...YES!!!

 

I think a lot of tiny waterski communities aren't the right place for lights. But this one - especially the wake lake, seems like the perfect kind of place where the lights could really add to the environment.

 

July and Early August, I think a ton of people would love to be out surfing until 9:30 or 10:00 at night. Maybe even until 11:00 on Indy Day and Pioneer Day as everybody will be kept awake by the fireworks anyway.