Why such costly R & D?

[Horton]

@MISkier

 

[MISkier]

I should have bet scotch.

[Horton]

I need to read this.

 

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?page=2&t=29236

[MISkier]

@Horton, there are also some awesome histories on that site about the 95-97 Prostar 190 and the variants of that hull that continued on for several years. And, there is some discussion as well on the history of the 205 model. The poster, C36, has exceptional knowledge and did a fantastic job on those posts.

[MDB1056]

It would be wonderful to see a thread stay on point. This discussion has digressed so far off topic its ridiculous.

[slow]

They called 2001 closed bow the pro star 190 evo. In 2002 they introduced the open bow prostar 197 based on the 2001 190 evo hull.

[slow]

They also had the 19 skier which I believe was the old prostar 190. It’s all in the 2002 brochure. Horton should panda himself

[paul]

The two main boats I ski behind are a 2002 PS 190 310HP w/ power slot tranny and a 2016 Prostar 6.2L. As far as wakes go the 2002 is slightly harder at 22 and 28 but still very, very good. My daughter (26mph) skis the same behind both boats. The biggest difference I notice is the response on the engine (PP VS ZO) but even that is not overly noticeable. Maybe I just have a boat from a fresh mold or something but from a wake only perspective I would take the 2002 over a SN 200 any day. Every 200 I have skied behind has a pretty big bump at 22 that kicks the ski pretty good.

 

The 2014+ MC has the best longline slow speed wakes by far and that includes the carbonpro (2012 &2014) in my experience (disclaimer - haven’t skied the new Bu or 2019 SN)

[aupatking]

To me, 3 event skiing has lasted how many years? How many fads have come and gone in that same time? To ditch that segment would be to say blue jeans will never come back in style.

And yeah, the new Prostar is the best wake ever for slalom at slow or long line. Take an 11 year old girl who’s afraid of the wake behind a 196 at -15 19mph and put her behind a Prostar and she runs the pass. No wake to fear. My experience is anecdotal but how many anecdotes do you need before it becomes statistical?

The new Prostar is the best example I’ve seen of r&d gone right in quite some time.

[eleeski]

@aupatking "No wake" at 19mph? My trick speed?!1 That's awful engineering.

 

An 11 year old should be tricking! Running the course at 19 only, with no wake, is a phase that she would outgrow almost immediately. Tricking will last her forever - or at least get her a place on the college team. Waterskiing is a pretty niche sport. Slalom is a niche within that sport. 11 year old first passes is an incredibly small niche to design for - way smaller than three event.

 

And I'm accused of being ludicrous?

 

Eric

[Orlando76]

I like the Prostar. I like so many practical things about it. But as -22 @30 &32 it sure has a flat but hard wake. Never knew what a hard wake meant until I’ve skied the PS.

[Horton]

@eleeski

"No wake" at 19mph? My trick speed?!1 That's awful engineering.

 

I do not think enough Ballers will get the Ludicrous reference

[Horton]

By the way if anyone wants to pump up the ProStar trick wake add 100 lbs in the bow. It is not rocket science.

[Gar]

Just to be fair slalom skiers have had to add weight in various spots of some boats.

[Horton]

@Gar yes for sure. Many high end slalom drivers rebalance every boat they get it. I added more a 80 lbs in the bow of my last boat. In retrospect it was too much but I did discover that it made a huge difference for trick skiing and made my wife angry.

[Expendable]

The ProStar is not a bad trick boat. Not as good a 1993 ProStar but still not bad.

[aupatking]

@eleeski , I’m not about to get in an argument with you about the merits of trick skiing. What I will argue is the merit of your first full pass run, and the euphoria or high or whatever you want to call it. That is good engineering. And like @Horton said, throw some weight in a particular place in the boat and all of a sudden, trick wake.

[eleeski]

Non standard weighting of the new MC boats led to inconsistent trick wakes. AWSA, in response, mandated that only the factory ballast system could be used. No alternative means of compliance is allowed. @Horton does your boat have the factory ballast system? When we tried to get a MC for a trick tournament, no factory ballast systems were available. Anywhere. That's a real hardship for MC trickers.

 

The new Nautique has 40 settings to dial the trick wake. Note that there aren't enough boats out to get practice rides behind to figure out what's best. How that got approved when nothing available is approved for the MC is weird.

 

I really like the Mastercraft company. I trust that the problems with trick are temporary - their track record is good for fixing issues with continuing R&D. I'm bummed because they gave up the best trick wake ever. They have lots of work to get back there.

 

@aupatking Every trick a kid learns is like running a new pass. You really willing to trade all that for earning a slalom pass a day earlier?

 

Eric

[Jmoski]

In regards to the original question, it would be interesting to know what % of their spend is on R&D. I would guess that it varies wildly in years where they introduce a hull, versus making improvements above the waterline.

 

Investing in making products better is what keeps market leaders on top, if you don’t you will lose market share - granted sometimes you still lose it even if you do!

 

I love all of the improvements that are available in today’s DD boats. Whether it’s improvements to make maintenance easier, improved engine performance & fuel economy, electronics, interior finishes as simple as making it easy to walk to swim platform without wearing the rear seat, or having places to store skiis...

 

That said, most of the wake improvements on the SN are things that will never help me as an amateur, so I wonder if manufacturers are doing a disservice to the majority of their customer base by optimizing for the top 5% of skiers.

 

That would be another interesting break down to see: purchase distribution across skier ability level.

[swc5150]

The ONLY reason my wife allowed me/us to get a new boat was due to the R&D changes on the Prostar. She wanted an open bow, and a tiny slow speed wake and MC crushed it. I'm actually surprised how many I've seen in the wild too, so they must've tapped into a market? I'd guess their investment paid off.

[lpskier]

“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.” My wife.

 

Some R&D guy some where sometime had the idea of a pylon. Should he have said: “No, tying the rope to the lifting ring is good enough?”

[Zman]

I love my Bu.

But, if I were to get any other boat, it would be the ProStar BEFORE they change what they have working now for slalom wakes.

[BraceMaker]

@swc5150 I think that really has to be the direction for ski boats. Maybe not cross over but family friendly enough to solve the seating/storage needs for a family to spend a day on the lake.

 

Around here the super barge pontoons are taking a real crack at roundabouts, used to see every dock with a roundabout and some had pontoons. Now most have a big pontoon and no runabout. And they seem to ski about the same.

[swc5150]

@BraceMaker For sure on the giant pontoons. That's now the majority of what we see on our public lakes. Ugh, even my cousin just bought one for our lake. It's got dual 150's or something on the back and a tower. AND the price makes a Prostar/SN seem cheap.

[The_MS]

My local brewer is constantly putting R & D into new IPAs and price doesn’t go up with new brews

[eleeski]

Catamarans, foils and other exotic designs could approach a zero wake. Make the tiny wakes of the Prostar look huge. You guys will be complaining about the big MC wake again. The 197 took the slalom wake to reasonable levels while preserving the ability to trick (and wakeboard). Market hype and unjustified criticism caused an abandonment of this excellent R&D.

 

I understand that we can't go back. It's frustrating that the available fixes are outlawed - no weighting for tricks outside of the rare (unavailable?) factory ballast. Does a Mastercraft kettlebell really do magical things that another weight can't?

 

Kids tournament ski and practice slalom discipline for their parents. Running a pass is probably more relief than joy for them. (Different for the slalom focused dad - real joy there - but the kids are the future.) What kids really love is spray wars with their buddies - best done on a kneeboard or trick ski. Kids playing and enjoying skiing - an enjoyment that will last a lifetime.

 

It's really sad when people buy a boat for one slalom pass at the expense of versatility. Are you THAT sure your kids won't like to trick or wakeboard - ever? Maybe true if they are forced to slalom only.

 

Eric

[DaveD]

@lhoover I think the market for 3 event boats is similar to what's going on with cars in the automotive market. The big 3 are moving their production from cars to SUV's because the market in N.A. is demanding that. That doesn't mean they won't make cars anymore because there's still a market for them, even though it's shrinking. Cars being 30% of the overall automotive market is still significant.

 

Same can be said for 3 event boats. The market may be shrinking but it will always be there.

 

The R&D is required because if you aren't offering something that's "new and improved", what are you going to put on your advertisements?

 

[swc5150]

I'm sure it's my public water life to blame, but I haven't seen a single person on a trick ski since the early 80's, and I don't remember ever seeing a trick ski at a pro shop. These days, can you even buy a beginner trick ski, or do you have to drop big $ on D3, Radar or Goode? Outside of the 3 event private lakes, tricking appears to be non-existent. Not trying to denigrate the sport with this comment, it's just seems like the reality.

 

The R&D teams have enough on their plate trying to build a competitive ski boat for families like mine, let alone perfect a wake for a minuscule segment of an already small market. I'd put money on it that the 197's great trick wake was more happenstance than a conscious R&D decision.

[eleeski]

@swc5150 Wakeboards are similar to trick skis. You've never seen a wakeboarder? I've coached hundreds. Converted many through the easy transition to trick skis (including my sons). A boat with a slow speed wake will work fine for developing wakeboarders. Note that the 196 that everyone loves for slalom is a nice wakeboard entry boat (they don't do surface turns).

 

To be sure, wakeboarders are almost as bad as slalom skiers in overestimating the boat's effect on their skiing. Maybe worse - what's a fancy new wakeboard boat cost?

 

Tricks needs comfortable water temperatures. You won't see them as much in colder northern climates. Unless they are really serious. The Larsen twins, Cory Pickos and lots of other top trickers have roots in the upper midwest. But the unfriendlyness exhibited by the pure slalom crowd (only boats with no wakes!) may discourage current budding trickers.

 

Come to Stan's lake in the summer. Chances are there will be a several hour long trick session with a healthy group of trickers. I'll stand by my claim that there are more trickers than slalomers stuck at slow speeds.

 

Eric

[DW]

Back to the original question: a couple of thoughts on why and how much, the why is to either take the lead or keep up with an improved product, another why is for the big 3 it is a core product and really their original DNA so it makes sense to keep the lead in that segment. The labor involved is captured, so that is not really an additional cost but more of a booked cost against that product, the people are available for any of the projects on the books so if there is the available time, makes sense to devote to all models in the line up. Not saying it is free, but not necessarily an additional expense. Parts, test boats, water time, molds etc all are lost costs in the development process.

[Horton]

A trick skier outside of @eleeski's fairytale world

 

[swc5150]

@eleeski I've seen legions of wake boarders and wake boards for sale at stores where they don't really belong, like Walmart. I've also see numerous wake board boats selling like hotcakes. What I've never seen is the slightest hint (on public water) that trick skiing is anywhere on the radar. It doesn't even seem there are more than few trickers on this 3 event forum?

[Horton]

@swc5150 I think I like you more everyday

[eleeski]

There are more trickers than jumpers. We could make our boats a lot better if we didn't have the excess horsepower needed to pull jumps. But all the boat development involves huge engines - overkill for slalom.

 

Wakeboards are allowed in AWSA trick events. So every wakeboarder counts as a tricker. FWIW, I do see more trick skiers landing flips on our public water in San Diego. So as wakeboarders improve, they would gravitate to tricks - if the tournament boats had decent wakes! Or if the "slalom only" crowd wasn't so hostile. Note, I'd be really upset if the real world of tricking wasn't, in fact, full of unicorns - see what you are missing?

 

Eric

[BraceMaker]

I mean I have 2 trick skis and am trying the make a trick ski from a wakeboard currently - was that @Bruce_Butterfield game? Only I found a really overly flat obrien wakeboard from the early 2000s so that when I cut out the center it wont have so much rocker.

 

I ride it about half of the weeks that I get to slalom. Things holding me back from doing more?

Athleticism Coaching coaching coaching talent.... beer and probably water temp in last place. Emphasis on athleticism.

 

I guess my perspective is; my older prostar 190 isn't delaying my progression of tricking at all. Its not delaying my progress of slalom at all (state restriction of ski courses sure does - covered in other threads, own a course, have no permit to use it)

 

What does delay my progress in both sports is in order;

Roomy interior space to bring gear and people

Large slalom wakes when you load the boat up with people/gear

Rough handling with or with out persons or gear on choppy days

 

 

On average I have about 4-6 people who want to ski or come in the boat. I have a boat that skis excellent at slalom with up to 4 people. If you add a 5th person that person ends up sitting next to the engine hatch and the wakes go to hell (unbalanced and large for slalom, unbalanced/washed out for trick) We rarely get to ski out front by the dock so if you want to comment "just pull from the dock"... just don't. If you say you should get an open bow 197 - also just don't the freeboard of the bow is not enough to have people up there on our lake on typical conditions safely.

 

Our typical ski runs take us 1-6 miles from our dock to reach calm water, and more often than not the best water is the furthest from us.

 

That means that when I have 6 people I usually have to do multiple runs, I usually have to take the actual skiers on a separate set than the guests....

 

 

So R&D - if you could come up with a great slalom wake/recreational combo skier wake with 4-6 people in the boat that would be awesome - if that can have a sweet low speed table for tricking, lots of room for gear, good handling in rough water, normal beam for trailering/garage storage, normal length for same - that'd be super fantastic.

 

The new Nautique is worthless for me. Alot of money and doesn't fix the issues.

[slow]

Wakeboard boats aren’t really being sold anymore. They are surf boats. Wakeboarding has vanished on our lake and replaced with hundreds of surfers.

[RAWSki]

@eleeski I feel your pain. I love three event skiing and wish it was the primary (rewarded) activity. Sure are trick skiers out there, but they don't buy boats.

Hey, I still use a BlackBerry phone ----- doesn't matter that Blackberrys now use Android OS, or Trick skiers use wakeboards. We are we are holding on to the wrong end of the rope my friend ----- the other end is tied to an anchor.

[ForrestGump]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA @horton that made me laugh.

[h2onhk]

We must be a family of unicorns then. Me, father ,mother, brother, sister-in-law, wife, and oldest daughter (10yr old) all trick recreationaly on public water. All just for fun. With a little luck I'll have my other 2 tricking in the next couple years. Just not quite ready yet. We have a 196 and the others run 2001 hull nautiques. When the water is smooth we slalom, we the boats come out we trick!