Baller Rednucleus Posted December 9, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 9, 2018 I have been curious about stem cell therapy for a few years now. Reviewed all the BOS posts I could find. Recently went to one of the "sales seminars" too. As a veterinarian I have some understanding of the theory and science involved, and my training has me leaning more to the "too good to be true" conclusion. So, there are quite a few threads on here that date back a few years. I would be especially interested in Ballers reports that are more than a year out from their procedures, and where their cells came from (fat, marrow etc) and what areas you had treated. Also any physicians & therapists comments appreciated. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddA Posted December 9, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 9, 2018 Dave, I have had two recent patients who have underwent Stem Cell coupled with PRP injections, one for a knee, and one for Neck, Shoulder, and Knee. The last patient is also coupled withwacupuncture as well. Both individuals are having very favorable results. Both have gone with umbilical cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted December 9, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 9, 2018 Last Thursday I had my foot rebuilt. They re-attached the ATFL ligament on the outside of the foot that I'd torn 25 years ago when I smarted off to a University of Texas football player at a party and he beat me like a drum. LOL. And because of bad genetics, I had no space in the metatarsal joint and it had worn 75% of the cartilage away, causing pain every step for the last 18 months. So they did a v-Cut in my toe bone, realigned the head, pinned it back together. Essentially, it was a radical bunion surgery for someone without a bunion. Then they also did biologic augmented microdrilling where they drilled 65 holes in the bone head and injected Amniotic stem cells in both the site of the ligament repair and in the toe repair. We'll see how things progress over the next 60/90/180 days. My doctor says from his perspective, the people who he can also do the stem cell therapy in conjunction with the corrective surgery are back to walking with less pain sooner. And since my insurance is silly good and covers everything known to man, we did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted December 9, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 9, 2018 5-years ago my friend's wife had a hip replaced and one was stem celled. It gave her 5-years but she just had that hip replaced as well. Was at my Ortho last week. My right hip is headed down the path and I asked about stem cell and he said "It isn't where it needs to be yet" and recommended not bothering at this time. I have a messed up left shoulder and a messed up right hip and would love for there to be some magical injection! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rednucleus Posted December 9, 2018 Author Baller Share Posted December 9, 2018 @A_B: "it isn't where it needs to be yet " - meaning the current technology? If stem is going to work for you, getting it done earlier on give the cells better tissue to regenerate - so if stem cell therapy is the real deal, now is the time to explore options. It's not realistic to expect it to help an end stage arthritic joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller wski1831 Posted December 9, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 9, 2018 Interesting thread. I just went to the sales seminar too. It would be interesting to hear results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighAltitude Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 "it isn't where it needs to be yet" usually means they don't offer the service. Funny how that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted December 9, 2018 Baller_ Share Posted December 9, 2018 I had an excellent hip Dr. tell me that “it isn’t where it needs to be yet” meaning that my joint wasn’t bad enough yet to warrant replacement. Same Dr. referred to stem cell therapy as “money transfer “ from patients to providing clinics. He wasn’t a believer was the feeling I took away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted December 10, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 10, 2018 That’s the meaning I got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighAltitude Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Ah...that makes sense, but in a different way. Good on the doc not to recommend cutting if not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted December 10, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 10, 2018 Joe Rogan has a couple of podcasts regarding stem cell therapy. Including one with Mel Gibson and his experiences. Some of the claims are pretty phenominal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted December 10, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 10, 2018 @RichardDoane I had that discussion with my doctor. I did a lot of research on foot doctors and decided on one who was on the cutting edge from what I could find. What he said was that the studies he's been involved in are showing is that the application method for stem cells is more important than even the type of stem cells themselves. That just using stem cells in a procedure doesn't show any verifiable increased growth in cartilage or bone. And that the problem as he has seen it over the last years is that it has become this boutique thing.....let's throw some stem cells in there for good measure while we're repairing X". He also said this is why he also doesn't do microfracture any longer. That if you are going to use stem cells it has to be in a very targeted manner and bone has to be prepared in a very specific manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skiinxs Posted December 10, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 10, 2018 PRP is a lot cheaper and has worked very well for me 14 out of 16 times. The two times it didn't work were hail Mary's trying to avoid surgery. The MRI showed that the rotator cuff was completely detached, but tried prp just in case there was some attachment that didn't show up in the mri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted December 10, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 10, 2018 What I usually say is find a doctor you trust and trust your doctor. If you trust the doctor and they recommend PRP go for it, if they recommend it and you don't trust the recommendation you need a different doctor. Important to separate PRP and Stem Cell - PRP is largely coming up as placebo effect - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6214820/ Bear in mind as @BoneHead states - PRP could actually be beneficial just like Stem Cell could actually be beneficial - but when it is a service that's being tacked on to the visit or when it is on the website as a way to lure clients into the practice you are going to get a lot of hype. I would further comment, just because an Athlete/Celebrity is pitching a product doesn't mean it works - Ortho's are of the conclusion that generally PRP works because it is expensive, it isn't expensive because it works (People want new/trendy stuff that costs money to work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted December 14, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 14, 2018 I had my shoulder injected last spring. For me a miracle. I went from not being able to turn the ignition key in my car to being able to ski all summer. I had such great results that I did my knee 2 weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rednucleus Posted December 14, 2018 Author Baller Share Posted December 14, 2018 @tjm thanks for the update - you are the 1st post that has actually had the procedure. What was your cell source? Spring of 2018?? Did you have a shoulder diagnosis/mri?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller escmanaze Posted December 14, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 14, 2018 Ok, I'm getting in on this thread as well. I have a knee that really just ain't right and I want to see what people have to say here. This is so difficult for me because I see so many similarities between orthopedic surgeons and the mechanical engineers I call on day to day. Sometimes engineers really are warning their clients of a new "technology" that has come out that really truly isn't what it's claimed by all of the people selling it to be and really truly isn't good. Sometimes, however, they think it's not good just because they don't know how to use it yet or they tried (the wrong way) to use it and it backfired. And sometimes, they are just old dinosaurs scared of anything new. Knowing that they, as human doctors, are certainly subject to the same possible errors as these human engineers makes it really tough to just trust them completely on a topic such as this. Edit: For the record, I'm in the camp of folks who has asked my orthopedic surgeon for his opinion on stem cell and his opinion of it was overall negative. However, I'm not ready to take that for anything more than it is: One Opinion from one guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted December 14, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 14, 2018 @escmanaze - a good bit of the similarity is that engineers and doctors are both the decision makers for the health and safety of the public, and they are both held to a HIGH degree of accountability for their actions. Searching for current research - "In conclusion, MSC treatment improves knee pain, physical function, and cartilage quality, without any severe adverse events. However, evidence for these outcomes that are considered critical for clinical decision making was “very low” to “low” according to the GRADE system because of the poor study design, high risk of bias, large heterogeneity, and wide 95% CI of the effects estimate. These GRADE ratings were similar even if only high quality RCTs were included in the meta-analysis. Detail information about rehabilitation is lacking; therefore, the role of rehabilitation in MSC treatment in patients with knee OA is unclear. However, rehabilitation was a significant effect modifier of better MSC treatment on self-reported physical function, supporting a concept of the newly born field, regenerative rehabilitation. Integration of rehabilitation into MSC-based therapy may be beneficial at least in improving physical function. These findings would help researchers and clinicians in designing future high quality clinical trials." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6141619/ Which would say the studies seem to say there's nothing harmful about it - but also that the studies that conclude that can't definitively say there is nothing harmful... What I've been seeing is that Ortho practices of a decent size often have a physiatrist, or a non-operative/sports med ortho doc who will provide more of these sorts of procedures along with rehab. Often the procedures are cash, and people are doing travel medicine to get some of these procedures performed. A few years we should get a better idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted December 14, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 14, 2018 @Rednucleus Here is my story, short version. I'm 65, I have had ostearthritis in my shoulder for some 35 years now. Last year it got so bad that I could not raise my arm past my waist without severe pain. My very good friend, who is a well respected orthopedic surgeon specializing in everything from the shoulder to the fingers and has put me back together longer than I can remember, was my firt stop. Over the last 20 years he has cared for my shoulder with various surgeries and lubricating injections. When I went to him last winter he told me I needed it replaced. Had xrays and MRI's and the radiologist told me she has never seen such a trashed out shoulder, no cartilage, 75% torn supraspinitus, no spacing, etc.. I asked my friend about stem cells and he said "it wasn't there yet, and anyways you are so trashed I doubt it be of benefit. Even though he was my friend I went for a second and a third opinion and they said same thing, replace it. The third guy was the top shoulder guy in Chicago, and he said he would do the stem cell if I really wanted to but it was probably a waste of money. Regardless, I booked an appointment. Then chance would have it I met another Dr., this guy was sports medicine, not a surgeon, and he is totally committed to this avenue as the future of Orthopedic medicine. Although he also said my shoulder was totally trashed, worse he's seen, and there was no research that would indicate it would be of benefit. But he was so knowledgeable, and refreshing to talk to that I booked the appointment with him, even though he was twice the cost, and cancelled the "expert". As I said, for me it was a miracle. It is not an instant cure, and not a cure for the arthritis at all. I'm really not sure what it does,but it worked for me. Over a six month period it got stronger and stronger. At six months you get to full benefit. So now I have a shoulder that still does not have full range of motion, but the range I do have is pain free and strong. I can live with that. I can ski, I can lift weights, I can throw a ball, etc. He used my own bone marrow stem cells and my own fat stem cells. I do not know if it is a permanent fix, and if the symptons come back I will do it again. But for me it was an easy decision, shoulder replacement or try the stem cells. If it doesn't work then I'm out a couple thousand bucks, kind of like buying a ski you wish you didn't. But it worked. My buddy the surgeon was shocked, and told me he didn't think I would have gotten any more function with a replacement. He was very surprised at the result but happy for me. So that's it, oh yeah, I took a lot of PT afterwards from some very well trained therapists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rednucleus Posted December 15, 2018 Author Baller Share Posted December 15, 2018 @tjm - fantastic; so happy for you! Were you treated in 2017 or 2018; also curious were you doing any aggressive PT prior to stem treatment? Thanks again for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted December 15, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 15, 2018 Had it done late feb 2018. Started pt one week later and continued for 4 months. Still keep up with all the moves several times a week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller wski1831 Posted December 15, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 15, 2018 @tjm How long did you have to let it heal before activity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted December 15, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 15, 2018 @wski1831 1 week just movement. Next 2 weeks therapy bands and 5 Ib dumbbells. Starting 4 weeks ease into normal activity gradually getting to no restriction by week 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted December 15, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 15, 2018 @Rednucleus for what it is worth, personally I would never have had it done at one of the sales seminar places. They may be great, don’t know, but not for me. I was lucky to find the guy I did. Don’t know where you are located but if you pm me I’ll share the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller igkya Posted December 20, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 20, 2018 If we can use fat stem cells, I think I have enough for a bunch of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogoose Posted December 26, 2018 Share Posted December 26, 2018 Talked recently to a guy that is a long time swimmer. He was unable to swim due to pain caused by a torn cuff. He opted for stem cell injection vs surgery. He is presently swimming at 100% with no pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted December 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 26, 2018 @Rednucleus Think this is the same company. Looks like these guys had a laundry list of infractions relative to production of biologics. https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm628019.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Edbrazil Posted December 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 26, 2018 As a jumper for well over 20 years, my lower back is crap. I did go to a stem cell presentation, and it looked promising. But expensive. No help from Medicare or Medicaid. A single treatment was quoted as $3,200. Comments, ideas? Sure would be nice to feel and move "normally" again, and maybe even re-start skiing, of sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rednucleus Posted December 27, 2018 Author Baller Share Posted December 27, 2018 My wife's doc said, "if you put it in a knee and have a problem you can cut it out - can't do that with your back". As a veterinarian I would not put it in my spine till I saw some really good data that says go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted December 27, 2018 Baller Share Posted December 27, 2018 My thinking is there is very little risk in using cells harvested from your own bone marrow and fat. I personally would not have had the procedure with cells harvested from umbilical or any other foreign source, and as previously stated I would not have gone to a “sales” oriented clinic, especially one that advocated using umbilical sources, which by the way was not offered by the group I went to. I was lucky to have found the guy I did, and was able to have further comfort in that he is part of the same hospital orthopedic group that I have used for over 25 years, which includes a very close friend who has surgically put me back together many times. It may not be for everybody, but it also is a legitimate procedure. You just have to find the right people. I paid 3,500, and compared to a shoulder replacement it was a bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rednucleus Posted June 10, 2020 Author Baller Share Posted June 10, 2020 Bumping this topic to see if anyone has updates for us, especially personal or friend's experiences with stem cells. My hip hurts more, told by two docs time for a new one, just kind of wishing for another option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DaveD Posted June 11, 2020 Baller Share Posted June 11, 2020 @Rednucleus My friend has both hips replaced last August and skied with us in Utah at the end of February. He's 55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted June 11, 2020 Baller Share Posted June 11, 2020 It's been three years since I had my shoulder done, still going strong with no problems. I went and had my knee done with the same results. My knee was trashed, torn acl, torn lcl, bone on bone arthritis, no cartilage. Got same advise as shoulder, "replacement is only alternative". Going on 2 years knee is feeling very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rednucleus Posted June 11, 2020 Author Baller Share Posted June 11, 2020 @tjm your results on both shoulder & knee are remarkable, especially at 2+ years. From where were your cells harvested? One procedure or a few return visits? Anything else done besides stem cells? Cost for knee? AND does your doc have a buddy here in WA?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted June 12, 2020 Baller Share Posted June 12, 2020 @Rednucleus not much I can add to info I shared earlier in this thread. You just need to make a decision which only you can make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted June 12, 2020 Baller_ Share Posted June 12, 2020 I’m 2.5 months post injection in my ankle. Can’t say I notice much of a change yet. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted June 12, 2020 Baller Share Posted June 12, 2020 @lpskier for me it took all of 4-6 months before I started noticing. PT all the way through. After 6 months the strength and comfort kept getting better and better. PT is very important though, for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted June 13, 2020 Baller_ Share Posted June 13, 2020 My post injection instructions were pretty clear that I couldn’t do much with my ankle for three months. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjm Posted June 13, 2020 Baller Share Posted June 13, 2020 Must be different for ankles. Just offering my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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