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Who thinks the boat speed should be constant?


ozski
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@MISkier seems like a rabbit hole with huge costs and little payoff. Bottom line is ZO is NEVER going to go for it.

 

@Zman yes counter steer timing

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I may again be in the minority but I believe that most of the difference you feel is caused by thinking there is a difference. Until two years ago i skies A1, moved to B2 as it theoretically should be better suited for my style of pulling hard and mediocre turns. Didn’t really feel a difference, i tried a blind test of going from A1 to C3, only real effect was if I really screwed up at buoy i gassed before i was ready. I never changed settings between boat, until i met the 2019 Nautique, but i do go to C2 on heavy tailwinds on my two hardest passes.
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Well, for all the negative things that have been said, and for all the fire I'll take for saying it, I don't care - here we go.

 

I will answer the question of the OP with "me".

 

I think the long term good of the sport would be improved by having a speed control system set to try it's hardest to have the smallest speed swings possible. I think this is the best option toward the "consistency" that everybody seems so much to crave. I think skiers would get used to it just fine after a little while riding behind it. I've now listened to 2 pages of echo chamber arguments against it, and honestly, I think there are holes in all the arguments, but if we were to actually debate it, any of you would and could pull the trump card of "you suck at skiing compared to me so you have no idea what it's like at 35 off" and there you would be right, but you would be wrong in your automatic implication of skiing talent being equivalent to authority in critical thought issues like this.

 

So while I don't plan to really argue it any further, I do at least want it to be on record that I believe this is the correct direction for the sport.

 

Flame away.

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@escmanaze “We” all do not “crave consistency “ We all crave feeling good and having fun skiing. Personally,I don’t crave blowing my back out every set as I chase the boat down the lake.

The consistency @MS is looking for is from boat to boat.

Would it be “fair”? Kinda, I suppose. Fair but so wrong and so not fun.

Conceding you are correct when nobody else agreed with you is interesting.

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Constant speed is a lot different than A1 being the same behind all boats. @MS and @ski6jones might be able to notice differences between boats but that difference is only important to extremely sensitive skiers.

 

Everyone should be able to feel the difference between constant speed and a ZO setting. Most can differentiate between ZO A1 and C3. Most can also notice the differences between PP and ZO or even Stargazer and Classic.

 

The speed variations DO make a difference. They need to be there (and as repeatable as possible) for a good feel.

 

Eric

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I think if you surveyed most national level skiers they would be satisfied or mostly satisfied for the current state of Zero Off. As we head into the 2019 season there's not a boat that I will dread to see at a tournament. There is some variation from boat to boat but it's much better than it was just a few years ago. Conversation of constant speed is an interesting winter discussion but I think it would be really silly for the sport to make any change at the moment.

 

At the danger of being branded an elitist I will say that if you are struggling to run 32 off or less the variations between the zero off settings is something you should forget about. Use B2 and worry about your technique.

 

 

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You only think we have the hp to flat line speed control. Sorry nope! The boats have to much drag and weight. A very high torque number would have to be attained.

ZZzzz!

 

Also ! ok! that's anal-lite thinking. I said it !

Try getting away from them before you personally put another nail in the sports coffin.

 

Just ski ! Dont be like that guy the anal-lite!

 

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The best pull on the end of the line is when the engine is rev-ing significantly/adequately and in time with the skiers pull to CL in attempts to accelerate the skier around the pylon.

 

The problem is, too many un-informed and misunderstanding drivers/skiers assume that the loud engine response means the boat is going to kick your ass, so they try to mute the engines response to the skier by prop changes and softening the ZO tuning.

 

Reality is, if the engine speed (RPM) never changes, then sure - your going to kick the boats ass into the first wake, but then you pay the price for it after crossing CL, and it kicks your ass on the way into the buoy.

 

In slalom, centripetal acceleration to CL is what we are after. The only way to develop centripetal acceleration is for the skier and the boat to try to move away from each other at a faster rate (into CL).In an ideal world, after CL, the boat stops trying to run away - and allows you an opportunity to 'swing' up on the pylon.

 

Just imagine the feel as a skier if the driver pulled back on the throttle when you pulled, and dropped the hammer after you cross CL. That would be HORRIBLE.

 

The best pull i have ever experienced in my life was behind Mapples 2000 back in 2010/2011. I believe it was a 6.0L engine tuned up to 485hp running 4150rpm at 36mph. I was running 2 and 3 at 41 on prototype skis behind that boat when I could barely run 38 on another boat anywhere else.

 

Tons of power, tons of engine response into CL, and a hull design that allows the boat to hit the breaks as soon as drag from the skier comes off as the skier crosses CL.

 

 

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@adamhcaldwell Good post.

Your thoughts on, what IF ZeroOff could anticipate the pull from the skier with a little "thumb pressure" on the throttle as they come out of the turn? Instead of being just a reaction.

Maybe not needed with today's horsepower, and how quickly ZO can respond?

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@Zman - I think the 'prediction' concept would be interesting to play with, however, an out of sync driver would probably still make a predictive system feel less then ideal.

 

I think ZO can react plenty fast enough to not need such a thing. I have skied a couple boats that feel like they're throttling the instant I touch the handle with my outside hand coming out of a turn. I wouldn't want more then that.

 

One of the huge "variations" we feel boat to boat has a lot to do with engines and derates going on that people are not aware of. The newer ECMs are very smart and highly tuned to 'protect the engines'. When a protection mode has become active for some reason, it will disrupt the brilliance, timing, and feel of ZO.

 

All of the new boats when they're running 100%, all feel awesome to me. As soon as the fuel is bad, or intake_air_temps, or coolant temps are high and the engine starts pulling timing out, ANY boat will immediately feel poor to ski behind.

 

The reason is it kills the engines ability to ramp RPMs fast enough with the ZOs commanded input. The end result is when the skier loads, he is literally pulling the boat back and digging their ski deeper into the water increasing whetted surface and load without much increase in tangential speed/acceleration. Then you cross CL with less speed and more load making you swing early, but narrow. The load/drag on the boat dissipating after CL is now allowing the boat to finally accelerate to recover and stay 'ontime' with the clock. It tries to regain its speed/time while your in the 'upswing' so it stays on the throttle running away and pulling you into the buoy. Then, once it is back on time it pulls off the throttle...this is usually right as your trying to come back from apex through the back of that ball. Setting you up for - what I refere to as - "skiing into the side of the boat" and the subsequent SLACK - BANG- HIT & soar back. What we want is to ski "through the back of the boat" coming out of a turn, not ski into the side of it.

 

A de-rating engine always produces this weird effect of early and slow (because you pulled the boat back on your way into CL), but narrow with inadequate speed sinking through the turn and skiing into the side of the boat with a loose line . Not a fun experience. #backpain.

 

 

 

 

 

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