State of the Sport

[Skwake]

Ok, I understand everything fired back at me and I probably didn't word what I said the best. I'm basically going off what I've heard many enthusiastic skiers say about getting into tournaments, not just skiing. In regards to the boat (most of what I'm saying is in regards to getting them into tournaments) yes you can ski behind any old boat and have fun with it, that's what I'm saying alot of people do, but they get to a tournament and zero off is just completely different and they struggle all of a sudden probably miss the first pass because of how different it may feel then they don't feel like they can be competitive in their division (even the comps we run based of levels not age groups) and the end they're done with tournament skiing just like that. I've heard it and seen it so much. I remember my first season i could comfortably ski a so called 36 behind my old foot throttle, couldnt do anything behind a zo lxi practice and tournament it was frustrating and I hated comps till I finally got to constantly ski behind zo if I wasnt so extremely competitive i probably would have pulled the pin. And yes you'll say but tournament skiing is tough and I know it is but its tougher when you don't access to the gear you need to compete behind.

 

Seriousness of a tournament I understand and obviously you're going to do everything you can to optimize the performance of the skier and yes most tournaments should stick that way but if we want to grow our sport and include new people into it that are not brought into it by a skier friend or family there needs to be something there to start them off. And we have started those fun tournaments @Horton and we are getting a huge response and now I'm not the only one travelling to more serious comps i got 4 or 5 others coming with me.

 

What I'm saying is for people who want to start skiing tournaments and are new to it, there isn't alot of factors 'inviting' them in.

 

Once again I'm saying this from what many people have told me and what I've seen from people trying tournaments and a bit of experience. And you talk.about 15-20k is nothing, for a lot of people that is not an option.

 

[The_MS]

@Skwake I agree that ZO is a big issue on why PP skiers are not likely to go to tournaments. If ZO would let it give us 16.98s when it takes hits and recover the time over the remaining course instead of all at once it would feel like pp.

ZO (the company or whoever is telling them what we want) SUCKS

[Horton]

@ms

ZO came out 10 years ago. Every ski boat sold since 2008 had ZO.

[Horton]

@Skwake it is an expensive sport. Unless you have a solution I do not get your point.

[Stevie Boy]

@Skwake Zero Off gives every body a Level playing field as far as speed and correct timing is concerned, there is also a system that provides rated driver,s in a effort to get you the best drive possible, can't imagine a Pro turnng up to ski behind a boat with a foot throttle and a unrated driver and a observer sitting next to him with a stop watch and a course that has not been Homologated.

Those days have gone a long time ago, the sport has moved on, unfortunately one of the things that would have a good effect on the sport, would be if it was in the olympics, but or though we have speed control, the governing body said that they could not garantee the exact same boat path for each and every skier, so it got thrown out.

[BraceMaker]

@MS I don't know, if its that big of an issue you could easily give the option of RPM mode at local level for grassroots and then you're right back to PP no magnet c. 1990. And maybe that's the solution is just to let folks request RPM mode at low tier tournaments.

 

Slalom skiing is sort of like trap shooting. You're really competing against yourself, you can spend a vast range of $ on equipment, and could in theory have enough gear to participate for about 500 bucks if you can find somewhere to go. But its usually at private locations outside of where most people live and there are a lot more people who shoot a shotgun recreationally than people who shoot 27 yard handicap (24.6 meters) (is 16 yards 11 off?)

 

But the real barriers to participation, its boring to go if you know no one. The regulars have their groups to ski with, and if you want to be a member of a good club bring on the cashola. And of course once you're hooked the good gear is a few thousand bucks every year or two and you don't usually actually sell your used stuff.... because back ups/nostalgia/hording.

 

In either case you have to make the club fun to make it successful, ZO issue solved.

 

Do you think you could make a slalom tournament more successful just by having a "learn the course" clinic the week of the shoot where you advertised it to your local marinas/sporting goods stores then had people register for the course and invited them to ski that weekend with a day pass from usa waterski? I bet you could, locally there is a trap field that does something similar they have sort of an intro to trap shooting night, where they buddy you up with a club member and then you can shoot in their league night. Shows people that shooting 10 on 16 yards is still enough to get started and wham those people join and show up.

[walleye]

If you want the sport the to grow or your finding it hard to participate. Quit thinking about your own opinion and read about solutions - especially what @sunperch wrote. I find this on this website people do not read post and learn. They only want to toot there horn - your missing out on good info.

[Deanoski]

I ski tons bit have not been to turny in 4 years my boys don’t ski my wife skis but would not sit at a turny and watch so I just have fun skiing buoys and free skiing the river we have 30 club members at our private site and only @ goode skier and his fam ski at turnements we have 3 members that get into -38 on a regular set

it is time we don’t have

It’ fam and other sports that keeps use away from traveling and going to tournaments not $ that keeps use away

[Horton]

@Deanoski what is this reading you speak of

[ToddL]

@Skwake's comments are valid, but the solutions have eluded us for years. The auto parallel that is missing is that in the US you can buy a new car that gets them from place to place for an average price of $35K. That means that you can also buy a lot of new cars for less than $35k (remember half are below the average). A new car isn't necessarily a sports car, but some can be plenty zippy.

 

From a boat perspective, I guess this would be like someone buying a new "family" boat that has decently small wakes. This can also be pretty zippy and will get you from place to place.

 

Now, all that is left is a place to practice rounding buoys. I guess a portable course could be purchased. We all know that none of the private lakes are going to let an outboard or I/O family boat run through their competitive course.

 

So, I think that's part of @Skwake 's point. How does someone ease into this sport on a budget?

 

I know in the past there have been some who wished there was an economy inboard option on the market. Where is our "Kia" inboard?

[MCskiFreak]

@Horton and several others your flippant responses throughout this thread are exactly the "boys club" attitude that @Skwake is alluding to when he says that it is hard to get people interested in the sport when the immediate response to an outsider is to make them feel unwelcome.

 

I was 20 when I joined this site and I am now 28, so I am right in the age range @Skwake spoke of, and I by and large agree with him. The 3 event side of the sport can be pretty cloistered at times; this came into stark relief for me when I first joined the show ski team that I am currently a part of. They were my first friend group upon moving to a new city and state after college and they welcomed me with open arms.

 

Due to the fact that the club property is leased from the city we are very aware of the way we are perceived in the community. To make sure that we are seen as a positive in the community we do a number of learn to ski clinics throughout the year, work with adaptive ski organisations, and non-profits for veterans and at risk kids.

 

While all of the volunteering is "lost practice" time some of the memories I've made during those times are far more fulfilling than any experience I've had as an individual on the water including wining nationals as a team.

 

I think its important for people to keep it in perspective when there is an opportunity to try and introduce someone to the sport.

[The_MS]

ZO does level the field but only for those that ski it daily. It would still be a level field if it were loosened up to allow for the system to come in within the tollarances set. I think it is awesome that we can put a driver in the boat and not worry about wind, weight and crew. Set it and go. I don’t want PP, I don’t want no letters or numbers, I just want to turn it on, ski and have it feel the same on evey boat.

[dnewton]

I almost already hate myself. I’ve only been in the sport for 3 years and I complain if the wind is above 8mph. It’s understandable that there is a huge disconnect between a guy trying to figure out how to ski for the first time and his buddy that runs 22 off most days.

[Horton]

@ms no one on planet earth hated ZO more than I did when it came out. It was TERRIBLE for the sport. We lost a lot of skiers because if it. It has been 10 years and it is what it is. You can now get a 10 year old boat with ZO and it is sort of the same for everyone. Why are you still crying about it? Looking back it sucks but at this point it is as interesting as talking about when the balls moved because they are metric.

[Horton]

@toddl the Kia of waterskiing is a 10 plus year old boat. You can not build, market and sell a boat for much less than 65K. No one likes it but there is no fairy dust solution. New boats are expensive. If you can't afford a new one you are in the majority and should buy as good a used boat as you can.

[Horton]

@MCskiFreak I am NOT flippant. In a perfect world the costs would be different. In a perfect world access to slalom courses would be a different. That is not the world we live in. I spent 10 years bumming rides from friends before I finally got got my own boat and ski place. I only have a boat because I work in the industry and am crazy lucky. If I did not do business with MasterCraft I would for sure have a super old boat. I live at my lake house because 2 houses is WAY out of the budget and as cool as it is to live at the lake it SUCKS for everything but skiing.

 

My point is skiing with all the toys means sacrifice or a ton of money and or maybe both. As @Deanoski said go back and read the post from @sunperch.

 

 

[Drago]

I think zo is awesome. I instantly improved when it came out. The fact that we can't put zo in our '97 Nautiques sucks

[MCskiFreak]

My comments had zero to do with the cost of entry into the sport, they had to do with attitude and its effect on bringing new blood into the sport in a way that inspires them to stay.

[eleeski]

To get into racing cars, you don't have to have a F1 machine, you can race Corvairs, bathtub Porsches (cheap old ones) and old Corvettes. To ski, there's just one league. No more Al's Novice Nationals (which hooked me and so many other California skiers). No more INT. OK, San Diego has grassroots tournaments - there's hope still but it's almost the only dedicated grassroots action in California (and draws a lot of regular tournament skiers). It seems like there's tubing or the elite tournaments.

 

Except there's college skiing. The magic of the ski world which really works. While you are in college. If you got a chance to participate. It rocks but is a small piece of the potential pie.

 

So when @Skwake or a new skier complains about barriers to entry and has some ideas to fix it, I will listen. @JeffSurdej might be listening as well - old boats are now OK for C tournaments! It might take a while to have an effect.

 

Or zebra mussel laws, shoreline erosion paranoia, waterway restrictions, recreational pot and Iphone games might be too many nails in the sport's coffin.

 

I'll have my butler pull out my new boat from my boat garage on my private lake.

 

Eric

[Stevie Boy]

How many ski sites/clubs put on dedicated competitions just for kids, I am not referring to the kids that can whoop my back end, I am talking lower speeds 15off into 22off but not running it, would this encourage more kids to compete and get sucked into Tournament skiing ?

@Skwake I was at a lake that was due to have a competition at the weekend, some 22 year old turns up to practice, he tells me that he comes from around New York and skis on a river behind a boat with a outboard and no course, his first set consisted of 18 passes and his second 14 passes both sets he got deep into 38off , I have never seen anybody crank turns that hard and lean to the point where his head was inches from the water.

His comments afterwards " Hey man that feels different "

[ALPJr]

@eleeski yeah more Al's Novice Nat's !

 

 

[John Brooks]

As far as boat cost, why not split the cost with 3 or 4 others and as others have said buy an older boat. If you have a public lake nearby, buy a portable course, drop it in the lake, ski, pick it up and go home. My point is there are a number of options to participate and enjoy this wonderful sport, it just may take some effort and coordination to make it happen.

 

With respect to tournaments, for me it's a great environment to meet a lot of wonderful people. You can make it as serious and all business as you like or some combination and enjoy the environment. I believe the tournament environment is all about relationships and friendships. I remember 10 or so years ago, my friend and I decided to go to our first tournament, a local class C, and found a bunch of great people and lots of fun for kids and adults. I now take my grandson, he skied his first tournament this year at 7 years old, he had a great time, whether he was swimming, fishing, skiing or playing with the other kids.

 

My experience was and continues to be a great experience whether going to a class C or a record event. For me, offering to help, getting involved, meeting new people is a lot of fun. I hope those of you not involved give it a few tries and don't be bashful.

[BraceMaker]

@eleeski cheap old porsches... thats a good one! 356C basket cases are fetching 60k 912s same 356B sunroofs... fahgetaboutit.

 

Miatas though... affirmativo.

[MISkier]

@Horton,

 

I went and read @sunperch post again.

 

I stopped when I got to this part:

 

get a portable course and put it in a public lake for the day

 

Can’t do that here and that continues to be, far and away, the number one problem facing the sport.

 

As for the rest, it’s capitalism working like it should. Consumers will buy what they like and can afford. Manufacturers will build what consumers like and can afford to buy. When these two factors no longer balance, consumers don’t buy (or participate) and manufacturers don’t make. That is when you really know that you are no longer meant to participate. I’m sure it will happen to me at some point, probably sooner than I would like.

 

I do know that, each year, the number one topic of discussion at the club is boat cost. It’s not gas cost, ZBS, Level 10, or any other crap. Second is the difficulty or outright denial of public lake courses. Running a distant, but significant, third is the time commitment/travel distance for Regionals (and that as a prerequisite for Nationals). ZO gets an honorable mention when they make changes like single puck or try to calibrate a new boat/engine.

 

These are just my anecdotal observations. I’m not going to complain about it, but I do wonder how much time I’ve got left in tournament skiing.

[BrennanKMN]

ZO doesn't matter. PP doesn't matter. Are we talking about the state of the sport or the state of tournaments?

 

You can ski all day long on a boat without speed control. Hell you can ski behind something that isn't a DD 3-event certified tow boat (gasp). There is more to skiing then running 38 off all day behind your brand new boat on your private lake.

 

I used to run the course on my old I/O Sea Ray. ZO, didn't stop me, PP didn't stop me, a DD didn't stop me. I did learn my love for the sport and decide to prioritize those things after though, but grass roots bare bones is what gets people into this sport. Not 100k boats.

 

Equipment doesn't matter. Access does. Lakes with courses and other skiers is all you need. Equipment will come after you have access.

[Skwake]

Zero off gives a level playing field and yes your driver needs to be on point yes yes yes and yes I understand all that. But I'm asking how do we get your average joe into the spot. I'm not talking about getting pros into the sport @Stevie Boy , theyre already clearly in the sport. I'm talking new people, you're average person. And yes high level tournament skiing needs it but I'm saying we need more flexibility for people to get into it get started and take it from there.

 

@Horton why me that needs the solution? Can I not put a thought ahead without a solution? I got some ideas, but others help especially from around the world. I am doing way more then you would imagine to get new people into the sport but I thought this was a forum to discuss our views on the topic? That's my view and that's why I think people are struggling to get into the sport. My solution??? I dont know? Lets talk? Throw some ideas? You having the influence on waterskiing around the world you do you should be throwing some ideas forward to help rather then calling me out on not 'having a point' because I don't have a solution. I'm pointing out a problem I see and experience first hand which has an influence on where the sport is going, is that not what this forum topic Is somewhat about? I signed up to chat and express opinion but was unaware I needed a solution to my comments. Now i know, any of my future comments, I'll make sure i have a solution so I have a 'point'

?

 

@ToddL exactly one of my points how do you ease into it? Many skiers out there on the river that think they're awesome and potentially are but what is bringing them in to try and STICK with tournament skiing?

 

@Stevie Boy I believe it would work, anything like that which is more inviting to start people.off get them keen keep them keen. Some.just scare people and then they're done. Your mate who skied deep 38 out of no where is a freak of nature. As in said a while ago there has to be a happy medium and I feel like the sport gets held up with the people who are already involved in it rather then who they can get into it.

 

Once again most of what I am saying is from others I have met. I'm.competitive as hell and love everything being on point, but my chat comes from probably 20 social skiers to the 1 tournament skier (in my area) as to why they find.tournament skiing so hard to get into.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@MISkier - any progress on that in Michigan?

 

That is also the number one issue in my mind as well, our lake is big, the winds shift. There is one permitted course but its usually blown out and its not that well protected - getting the ability to drop a course in for the daytime only would help, but overnight would be key since we normally like to ski pretty early.

[MISkier]

@BraceMaker, no updates yet. It should be a topic at the upcoming MWSA board meeting. I am fortunate enough to hold a permit (with the ridiculous conditions on it), so I am interested in moving the needle on this toward the less restrictive policy/regulation.

[Chef23]

I think state of the sport is different than state of tournament skiing. We are admittedly fortunate to have courses on public water that anyone can access if they have a boat that is small enough (91 inch beam or narrower). On our lake I would say the state of skiing is healthier than it was 15 years ago when I moved back to the lake I grew up on. It is not as healthy as it was when I was a kid.

 

We have at least 20-25 regular users of the slalom courses. It only costs people $50 a year plus you need access to a boat. Boats used in the course range from late 90s inboards to a 2016 Prostar. I think there are only three boats with ZO two 196s and the Prostar. The rest of us run some form of PP. We have had people without DD run the course but generally they converted over time. Anyone who stops and has interest in the course we are happy to introduce them to it and frequently jump from boat to boat to help out with coaching and driving.

 

I have been sidetracked by injury but 4 years ago when I was skiing tournaments regularly I trained exclusively behind PP and skied tournaments behind ZO. Maybe I am a unicorn as my practice scores were almost the same as tournament scores I generally ran at least one round mid 35 in a tournament (PB of 4@35) and practices the same except for a magical day I ran 2@38 at Travers behind a Nautique with ZO. My personal boat is a 2002 Malibu with Stargazer. It is a great boat. I am fortunate that my primary ski partner bought the Prostar on our lake and he loves his boat (rightfully so) so we mostly ski behind that but I don't have any issues skiing behind my boat or our other primary ski buddies LXI.

 

Of the regular course skiers roughly half of them ski tournaments. Of those two have run 38 in a tournament (those two are the most helpful and welcoming of anyone involved) the rest of us aren't that good. Some of the most avid skiers (they are still skiing now in November) don't ski tournaments.

 

For me I see tournaments as a chance to test myself when it counts and an awesome social event. In the Northeast at most tournaments there are a wide range of abilities from people working to max speed to a handful of skiers that compete at Nationals. The Nationals capable skiers are way fewer than the people that love to be out testing themselves. Those higher level skiers contribute a ton of their time to helping run the events and are very friendly and open. Our tournaments are almost all Class C, fairly inexpensive and very welcoming. I have made great friends and love the social aspect as much as the skiing.

 

I think public water access to slalom courses is the key to growing the sport of skiing as it is addictive and makes it sticky. I know in a lot of areas that is challenging. A 10-15K boat is all it takes to get involved at our lake. I know of 2 other lakes within an hour of where I live with public access courses. Unfortunately our set up doesn't enable a club boat (it is on a state park) but the barrier to entry is pretty low. You certainly don't need a $3K setup for ski and bindings to run into 35 off. Frankly I had a blast this summer running 30 mph on a Radar Katana.

 

Don't let perfection get in the way of fun. For someone in their 20s a 10-15k investment in a toy is a lot of money but it isn't unreasonable with financing. With that and a portable course you can have a ton of fun. I spent 5K a year or more on golf from my mid 20s to mid 30s which would have easily covered my costs to ski if that was the choice I made at the time so I don't think skiing is out of reach but it has to be a priority.

[swc5150]

Like @Chef23 says, it doesn't have to be expensive. I lost a new 196 in a divorce, along with an ample amount of savings, so I picked up a '91 Prostar for $6,500 to get me back on the water.

[wawaskr]

@Horton have you ever surveyed what the age range is of this forum? I suspect it gives some insight on the future of this sport. I wonder myself how young folks can even afford to pay rent or buy a house the days in the Seattle (and surrounding burbs) area these days, much less afford the costs associated with semi-serious course skiers... On the surface, it seems that many of these debates are older skiers debating with older skiers.

[Stevie Boy]

There is a whole lot of other sports to compete with, most do not require a Lake, Boat and a Slalom Course, you cannot get away with it, it costs money, also requires a fair bit of dedication and the acceptance that those little orange things will defeat you, no matter how good you are.

So young people want to be cool, they want look good in front of there friends, they want to party, and be seen partying, they want it to be easy not spend years on the water

Da Da ! Intro - Wakeboarding, Kite Surfing, Surfing, Skate Boarding, Roller Blading, BMX, Cycling, the list is huge.

On top of all of this, some of them, want to be like Reality Stars, get Rich quick doing as little as possible.

All we can do is encourage the youngsters that are interested in the sport and hope they stick with it.

There is no Magic Wand.

[ToddL]

Personally, I think an entry-level ski boat is feasible to build, the real barrier is that it is not feasible to sell. Why build a product for such a fractional market share? The value-conscious market demand is for family runabouts which can provide a multi-purpose towed water sport experience. Since wake sports are a big factor in that scope, these offerings are not focused on a adequate slalom wake requirement.

 

There are a number of "runabout" boats which are priced under $30k new. None of them are inboards, but rather I/Os or outboards. They don't have ZO of course. Still, I would guess that those same manufacturers could produce a value-priced product on an inboard format for less than $40k, possibly much less. Again, this type of boat wouldn't be for the skier trying to make Level 5 or above on the ranking list. It doesn't make sense to them and it shouldn't.

 

So, my thought is that it could be done, even though it won't be done unless market demand changes.

 

@BrennanKMN - yep. Access to buoys is the primary true barrier to entry into competition.

[The_MS]

Why is always someone else that has to organize grass root tourneys? Organize one

[RINLE]

Collegiate fishing is kicking our butts. Non- collegiate fishing tournaments are kicking our butts too. And you can get our the door from Bass Pro Shop with a brand new boat and trailer that you can enter a tournament with for less then $20K. No lake restrictions. You can tow it behind your crappy mini-SUV. You can also spend more than a new Prostar for a new boat too. Believe me, it brings me no pleasure to admit that more people want to compete fishing than skiing. But that is what I see around me.

 

 

[ToddL]

@RINLE our local high school has a competitive bass fishing team.

[LeonL]

@Stevie Boy, I really believe that young guy yanked your chain. I find it almost impossible to believe that someone who skis behind an outboard, without a course can appear and run deep 38. It just can't be.

[6balls]

Not that it's easy to obtain in some locales, but a permitted course that goes in spring and out fall on a public is far easier than putting one in, skiing, and taking it out.

 

Helps to know a resident who wants to ski...they will get less grief than an outsider. My brother put his pretty far from shore--hurts for wind protection, but helped reduce complaints. On our busier public lake here the permit is not in my name it's in the name of someone who has a family name here for many generations.

 

We are lucky with our other public, seldom used puddle and the ability to leave a boat there.

 

There are ways to get it done as I certainly ski on the cheap. @horton is right either need big bucks or a combo of personal drive and luck. I've had the latter. I've also run some nice scores on ZO while training on PP...my tourney scores have always been just about spot on to my practice PB's and, for the most part, slightly better.

 

My nephew just got into the sport with a $15K nautique and a club skiing on the river in Indianapolis. He wouldn't need the nautique that's for his family skiing/boating...the club has a boat---a '91 MC if I recall.

 

The gateway drug is course access...and beginners won't give a crap about ZO...just that they rounded some buoys. Gotta set the hook...the OCD stuff will come with time!

[Stevie Boy]

@LeonL regards the New York boy, I wish you had seen it, his skiing was wild, setup was deep and hard, big cranking turns, never seen anybody lean that much, super strong guy, very clear that he had not been coached behind a tournament boat, at the competition everbody could not believe that he was getting away with such big turns.

He was en-route to Lucky Lowe, I imagine most of the time would have been spent trying to calm him down.

[BraceMaker]

@6balls Michigans rule: If I could get all my neighbors to sign letters of no objections. And by this I mean all owners of 1800 feet of shoreline at a specified point on the lake. Then I can apply for a permit.

 

If I get a permit the rules say I need to place 4 uniform corner bouys around the course. And that the course balls must be removed or lowered when not in use.

 

This is a uniform marking bouy.

 

 

[DW]

One metric on the state of the sport are the discussion topics on the manufacturer centric websites (Planet Nautique, Team Talk, Malibu Crew). Looking at the topics, they are overwhelmingly focused on the 'other' forms of the sport, very few slalom related threads on any of those sites. The boat topics rarely enter a discussion on the 3 event offering by that manufacturer, unless a BOS member starts one it appears.

 

[6balls]

@bracemaker that's awful. Those uniform markers suck, too...used them to demarcate the swim raft area at the beach...we managed it as a lake association.

 

Submersible perhaps in your situation?

 

I know in WI to get a permit we needed permission of all shoreline owners along the course. As seasonal vacationers that was impossible. We put it in, raised it a.m., skied it, and sank it--repeat on calm days.

 

MN is pretty friendly (at least my county). Fill out a form and turn it in at sheriff's office (same for a swim raft). Permit is generally granted and would only become contested if complaints. For a while we had 4 courses on 3 public lakes (one has 2) all within a 10 mile radius of my house. Myself and another skier live on one (the busiest public), a friend on another, and the third is our "swamp" with 2 courses--a tiny, shallow public that no one uses but us.

 

As I wrote above...for me access is combo of luck and desire. Cost we are super lucky, too. We pay $750/yr dock/lift/property rent at the "swamp". Doug lives on his seldom used small public and has a '97 196. Greg lives on my lake had a Bu Lx, now a Txi. I keep a '00 196 at the swamp...paid $17K for it 8 yrs ago.

 

I wish everyone who wanted could have such a scenario. With that I agree that access is a huge issue for many...and that often that access may equate to big cost.

[Jetsetr]

In SE WI I put the course in daily and take it out. Only did it once this year it was a PIA-but will get better with more help and experience setting it. That’s my fault due to work sked. Will try to get it in much more often next season. I have a few BOS members in the area that will be able to take advantage of the course. EVERYONE is welcome to ski with me...My Brendella has Stargazer PP (latest version) and someone else had I believe a MC. It’s all on me that the course didn’t go in more...at my level of suckage I need all the course time possible.

[BraceMaker]

@6balls our lake is clear about 20-30 feet so submersibles are fully visible in any depth youd want to use em. And also. Same permits.