+ Setting for Zero Off

[ghutch]

Tried the plus setting a couple of weeks ago. RFF, 34 mph, 28-32 off, 215 lbs, 6' 3". Normally B2. Went to B2+. Liked it. Tried A2+. Liked it even better. Really could feel the boat whip me across to the other side and "stay" with me without feeling like it was running away. Anyone else give the plus setting a shot and have similar results? Again I never would have thought I would like more gas from ZO but it really felt good. Also have heard it will be feel pretty different from each boat manufacturer. B2+ may not feel the same behind a Nautique vs a MasterCraft vs a Malibu. Thoughts?

[markn]

Are you referring to the + setting in new Rev S or the previous version?

[The_MS]

How about 1 setting for all

Zero off the company SUCKS

[RazorRoss3]

@MS should we all ride the same ski with the same bindings too?

 

Don’t get me wrong, I think we currently have a little too much going on in the boat with 9 settings with + variants getting you to 18, but I don’t have an issue with some level of flexibility. At the end of the day I think the number 1 factor is the skier, followed by getting the set up within reason of appropriate and having a good driver. Once those are squared away the setting might have an impact, and maybe it has a modest impact before that as well.

[The_MS]

@RazorRoss3 that is not the same. Every boat should feel the same. They have the ability to give us what we need but they don’t. The boats cost 70 flippen K. Charge another K and fix it. We need more skiers in the sport to compete and this is reason #1

[Zman]

@MS Why so shy?

Tell us how you really feel...

[Zman]

Oh boy...that might have been a mistake. :)

[eleeski]

@MS I'm not sure that I feel significant differences between boats. At least, no differences that aren't along the lines of wake differences. ZO seems to make the boats more consistent than ever.

 

I might not slalom at a high level but I do enjoy it and ski quite a lot of tournaments. My skills are far more limiting than any boat variations.

 

Don't force me to B2. I won't run a pass. I do need my options, A1 if I'm smooth and C3 when I'm scrappy (I'm stuck with C3).

 

Eric

[thager]

It's going to be a LONG winter!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :'(

[The_MS]

@eleeski it’s more engine to engine. Ski behind a 5.3 CC at your practice setting and then ski a big 6 or 6.2. It will feel out of sync.

Instead of all this + crap, just give us a good feeling pull. If fat boy yanks or breaks forward hard at 2 ball, how about spreading out a recovery over the next 4 balls and God forbid allow a 16.98 at the end. The tollarance allows for it so why the punishment? Skiers that practice z box or PP would be better served and maybe they would sign up for events. I know lots of skiers that are held back due to this.

I have it figured out but I’m sick of USAWS trying to increase membership and not demanding this simple change to assist in this process.

 

[dvskier]

@MS this is a very small sport in comparison with golf, tennis, etc. No one is getting rich off waterskiing from what I can see. At my level 15/22 off at 30.4 and 32.3 mph I can tell some difference but none of the different pulls I get cause me to ski poorly. That is all my own doing. After 30+ years of open water "Wally boy" skiing I set my sights on running the course at any speed/line length. Now I can run it but still want more.

 

I totally understand the desire for a uniform pull at a given ZO setting. I'm sure you guys at 38 off and beyond pay dearly when the pull isn't uniform. There are so many variables on revert pass it seems impossible to achieve uniformity. Tailwind, ZO, glare, etc. Also as Adam Caldwell pointed out the Malibu TXI de rates when the intake air is over a certain point and you have a very difficult issue. In short I'm not sure that ZO can be made to feel universal across all brands.

 

So that's my new guy impression of the ZO debacle.

[eleeski]

@MS The differences are real. But most skiers are able to adapt. I notice that skiers have a much more difficult time adapting from Stargazer or Zbox. Strangely, old PP Classic is the choice of many high level slalom skiers who transition well. My experiences with PP Classic are also very good (with the right driver). Perhaps the target for ZO should be the PP Classic pull (needs options because I like the switch).

 

PP is working on their product. It's now much closer to ZO (thank you PP). If your complaint is that the bulk of the skiing population uses PP and struggles with ZO, at least PP is addressing that issue.

 

I do totally agree that speed control should never try to make up time in the event of a hard pull (actually I interpret that as against the strictest reading of the rules). But I felt that most with Stargazer.

 

I love ZO because it is magic for tricks. Easy and consistent. Straightforward to setup and drive. Totally removed the driving variable. Jump rerides are rare with ZO. It works better than anything else for my slalom. ZO might not be perfect but it's darn good.

 

Eric

 

@thager A Basin and Mt Rose opened today. Winter!

[RazorRoss3]

@MS I will yield that the engine change can be funky for sure, I don’t know if my scores change but I like the feel of the stronger engine.

 

So your not as much against settings, you’re against the idea that the same setting feels different on different boats?

[Hockdog]

Perfect Pass.........6.5NG

[eleeski]

My apologies for the thread drift. It's easy to drift when discussing incremental differences if ZO either rocks for you or you can't make it work at all. The small changes are dwarfed by a skier's personal ZO compatibility.

 

Add the variable regarding whether my + setting is the same (or noticeably different if it's not) and the specifics of what we are trying to feel can get further lost.

 

Actually the OP has a valid question. For me at C3+ I'm not sure. If I don't pull hard it seems similar to C3. It's unforgiving if I screw up but that could be me. Or my custom ski. Or experimental binding. I'm sticking with C3. But + might give B settings a feel more like C.

 

Keep trying and I'll try to listen.

 

Eric

 

PS I trick on C3+ and love it.

[skiinxs]

I love the new + (version s). It doesn't punish me when I pull way too hard. You can hear it throttle a lot more when driving, but you don't feel it when skiing. It feels like it is much more in sync with you.

[ghutch]

@MS I get it... your not a fan. Believe me..neither was I. I finally have to admit after skiing more behind ZO and working my butt off to improve, it has made me a better skier. Or at least my body position is a whole lot better and I can now take what ZO gives me (most of the time).

@markn- not sure of the version. It is a 2016 MC. Just discovered the plus settings and since its the end of year I thought what the heck and gave them a try.

I guess my real question for this thread is if anyone has experienced that much of a difference btwn boats. I would expect the 6.0 and 6.2s to respond stronger and faster possibly? I know there are some great skiers on here who feel this difference skiing behind different boats. I'm trying to figure this out before tournament season next year. I hate winter.....

[disland]

New rev S plus is the real deal. If you dont try it your a fool

[The_MS]

Again. I have ZO figured out. I can switch boats and ski behind anything. I’m not complaining about me and my skiing. I could never switch between PP and ZO daily. It just don’t work.

Not everyone has the opportunity to do what I do. Ski in events all over and practice behind the latest. I can go places and ski behind all the boats.

Why do you all just say it is what it is? Expect more from our leadership and demand more from the big 3. They can fix this and they don’t care. The tech is there.

ZO the company sucks and it sucks that we are stuck with a worthless product because nobody will stand up to the leadership.

I would love to spend some time with 5 or 6 differant engines and ski my ass off for a few weeks to help ZO deal with this but they dont care.

If getting a 16.98 is bending the rules then PP should be outlawed and the tollarance should be changed to actual. Any 16.96 should be a re-ride.

75k for a new boat and they can’t change that to 76k and give us a product that works?

Note to @ZO get off your ass and give us a product.

Note to @billyeargin. Demand more from your vendors

Note to @USAWS change the rules to actual so all are really on the same page

Note to all you @richsnobs that ski behind all the new boats daily. Remember where you all came from.

 

 

[JackQ]

MS, I disagree with your ZO vendetta. Unless all boats have the same engine and wetted surface I want multiple settings. Without that ability the new Natique would be unskiable for me at 38 and 39. I am not likely to want the same pull as you or others.

 

Have spent more than a casual role in the development of Accuski, analyzing radar plots and speed control algorithms, I was never impressed by the pull with Perfect Pass =hot gates and chasing the boat in tailwinds.

 

Everyone is different but for 3 years i solely practiced behind PP and skied in tournaments without an issue, other than allways getting a better gate with ZO and easier tailwind passes.

[The_MS]

@JackQ so ZO does feel differant on each boat. Hmm

[Drago]

At least it doesn't feel the same as Stargazer which was consistently total garbage on every boat and engine combination

[JackQ]

MS, no each boat if different. In the long ago past everyone had similar 240hp V8, and less divergent hulls. You could put PP or Accuski on the newer boats and they still would feel different. I use B2 on all boats for last 5-7 years and only changed for the 2019 Nautique as it feels like there is nothing at the ball at 38 and beyond. Many other MM skiers feel the same. However the same engine and ZO in other boats feel fine, there is something quite different in the New Nautique.

[The_MS]

@JackQ I was using B and then B1 on everything until around about 2013 when I started feeling out of sync with some of the bigger engine boats. 3 rounds at a record event with 3 boats and I just thought Oh that boat sucks or that driver sucked. At some point I started to move letters after passes and usually it was just going up to C1 and bam. I can tell instantly on my -32 if B1 is not working for me. Move it to C1 and suddenly the driver and boat feel great at 35/38/39.

I wonder how many people just ski down the lake on first pass and think they are skiing like crap but in reality the pick up is not where they practice with (letter). Most probably head to the tool box and do a fin change and go ski second set.

 

[eleeski]

@MS Important insight you shared. If it doesn't feel right change something! Now we all know to try that. You just made ZO better.

 

That's actually one of the great features of ZO. You can change settings during your set. You can optimize the pull for the rope length you are skiing. You can adjust for things like engine size, wind, temperature, salinity or any of the myriad variables a tournament might throw at you. Sounds like a good thing to me!

 

Realistically, developing skiers won't notice subtle changes in ZO settings or boat or site variations. Advanced skiers should be able to get enough ZO time to know how to adjust. Like you figured out.

 

Additionally, discussion of things like the + setting are important. Use + for smaller engine boats?

 

Eric

[BraceMaker]

My question will always remain, why cant ZO use its own accelerometer functions to calibrate the boat/engine combos to feel properly. Ie. If B1 is supposed to look a certain way for the breadth and magnitude and timing of the response and a certain hull and engine isnt reacting enough... why not make it?

[Drago]

This isn't exactly about the new + setting, but why do waterskiers expect to PB every set?

[kurt]

@drago it isnt i expect a pb, but i at least expect to ski close to my average.

The fact the first 19 nautique i skied behind was at states and the second was at regionals was garbage.

It was so different at the ball, subsequently i did not go to nationals.

I felt as if that boat was shoved down our throats. The first boat delivered to our area days before states.

Again garbage if it doesnt feel the same or close.

[The_MS]

I wonder if simple letter change would have worked for @kurt?

[kurt]

@ms dont get me wrong, i like the boat.

Drove it for many tournaments this year, tracks amazing for jump and slalom.

But as you pointed out the boats should not feel that much difference between them in 2018.

A different letter probably would have helped but those tournaments are 1 round and done , no chance to expirement.

[The_MS]

@kurt You bring up a great point about 1 round events. It would suck to show up at State tourney and get a boat/engine you have not skied behind and feel out of sync when maybe you just lit it up the day before in practice.

[markn]

Have converted my 5.7 196 to ZO Rev S. I run C2+ and really like the pull. Have been skiing at Swiss Ski School also behind the 2017 and 2018 6.2 liter boats on C2 (Rev R). Yesterday I skied behind a 2018 5.3 and started out on C2. The pull was MUCH softer than both my 196 and the 6.2 liter boats. The difference was palpable. Switched to C2+ (again Rev R) and it was still softer than both my 196 single single puck Rev S on C2+ or the 6.2 liter boats on C2. With the softer pull, buoy count could increase once you got used to it.

Can see the concern training behind a 5.3 and going to a tournament with a 6.2. It will feel firmer.

Based on the above comparison, I believe a 196 ZO boat with single puck Rev S, is closer in pull to a Nautique 200 6.2 liter boat Rev R than a Nautique 5.3 boat Rev R.

Have yet to ski behind a new 2019 Nautique with Rev S, so looking forward to that comparison when the opportunity presents itself.

No doubt, the conversion to single puck Rev S on a 196 is worth the investment.

[ghutch]

So my question is how do we figure all this out? Obviously I would love to ski behind as many as possible and figure it out but not possible to do that. No access to that many different boats, versions, engines, etc. Can anyone put up some type of chart possibly? I understand it will come down to each individual but this would be a place to start. It also doesn't sound like too many have tried the plus setting before.

[eleeski]

@ghutch You are making too much out of this. The settings are the first order way to dial the feel of the pull. Figure out whatever setting works best for you and go with that.

 

@MS and others are unreasonably sensitive to nuances I can't feel. C3 is C3, regardless of the boat. My body, the wind, water temperature, what I had for dinner the night before and so many other variables hide the boat differences.

 

Try the + setting (or settle on a setting you like) on whatever boat you can get some rides on. If you draw a new Nautique, hold onto your wallet - that's the biggest risk.

 

Eric

[skierjp]

@markn come to Winter Haven. I have the 2019.

[lpskier]

In the summer, I ski C2 behind most boats, but A1 behind the 6.2 SN. In the winter, i ski B3. This fall behind our 5.7 MC with updated ZO, I started with C2. Tried C2+. Too much. I’d heard a lot about A2+, so I tried A2, then A2+. It was okay, but didn’t blow me away. Tried B2 then B3. Felt like being home after a long trip out of town. Tried B3+. Loved it. Tried B2+. Okay, but back to B3+.

 

Got back to the dock and related my findings. Was advised that “no one is skiing a plus setting on a 3.” So what do I know.

[dvskier]

If a ZO setting works for you then who cares what others think. Only you can determine the best setting for yourself.

[Fraser]

2 questions:

 

1 - at what level of skiing should you consider playing with ZO?

2 - what is the best way to go about trying the settings? i.e. a2, b2, c2 then +, or a1, a2, a3 and so on.

 

I would think that you would settle on a letter first and then adjust numbers and + settings? I am only 2 years in the course and skiing b2, running 15 off @ 34mph 50% of the time so this topic could be ahead of my ability.

[markn]

I do think a ZO setting can have an effect on a skier in the 15-22 off level, just as it can for a 38 off skier. As an example, an "A" setting can be more forgiving (picking up the skier) than a more aggressive pick up at the buoy on a "C". setting. Attached is a ZO presentation from Will Bush explaining the various settings and effects. Although it is from 2013, the principles still apply. (hope there are no copy right restrictions as it was

from AWSA).

With respect to how to experiment with the settings, start with your preferred setting, do a pass or two. Add the + setting to see if you like the increased gate speed and throttle response. If you like the +, determine what you would like to "gain" by changing setting and change the letter. If the new letter gives you the desired effect, then look at the number settings to "fine tune" the pull. Again, refer to the reference guide to achieve desired cause/effect .

 

As you are on B2, looking at the chart, the response from the boat is basically even on each side of the wake. The "A" setting response is from the wake to the next buoy while the "C" setting response is more from buoy to wake. Perhaps "A" will allow you to better complete the turn, establish a good position going into the wake. Conversely, maybe you like to be "picked up" by the boat right at the completion of the turn, have an aggressive strong lean going into the first wake and then be "released from the boat".

 

Good luck and hope this helps you advance down the line!

[mbabiash]

@markn If I’m not mistaken the plus option on the new S version of zero off doesn’t have an increased gate speed like the previous versions did.

[markn]

Gate speed is increased, but you are correct, the new S version + is more responsive and progressive making it different from the Rev R version.

[mbabiash]

@scotchipman

I thought so.

Thanks for clarification

[Fraser]

@markn Thank you for the information/input. I think I need to experiment with the different letters more...after digesting the PDF and your explanation of where one may like the pull, I think that A could be a possibility since I am working getting into a strong position during the turn and having a bit of time before the pull may help.